Honestly, what's the big deal about Gay Marriage?

07/10/2008 04:45:21 PM · #1202

Hey DrAchoo, have fun on your trip. don't worry by the time your get back they will be on a rant on someone else most likely me!!!! Right ladies? Oh I can just feel the heat coming on!!!

07/10/2008 07:58:09 PM · #1203

Originally posted by coronamv:

Hey DrAchoo, have fun on your trip. don't worry by the time your get back they will be on a rant on someone else most likely me!!!! Right ladies? Oh I can just feel the heat coming on!!!

I'd like to think that we are ranting about the particulars of gay marriage and society's stance on homosexuality, not the paricipants, but in any case do have fun on your trip DrAchoo.

Also, I am no lady. :)

Message edited by author 2008-07-10 20:00:01.

07/10/2008 08:24:38 PM · #1204

Yeah I kind of figured that out but it was too much fun to pass up...I was also refering to all of us...

Originally posted by Mousie:

Originally posted by coronamv:
Hey DrAchoo, have fun on your trip. don't worry by the time your get back they will be on a rant on someone else most likely me!!!! Right ladies? Oh I can just feel the heat coming on!!!

I'd like to think that we are ranting about the particulars of gay marriage and society's stance on homosexuality, not the paricipants, but in any case do have fun on your trip DrAchoo.

Also, I am no lady. :)

07/10/2008 08:47:16 PM · #1205

Originally posted by coronamv:

Yeah I kind of figured that out but it was too much fun to pass up...I was also refering to all of us...
Originally posted by Mousie:

Originally posted by coronamv:

Also, I am no lady. :)

Coronamv, just this once, I will let it pass, but please donâ��t make fun of my gender again.
I think I can assure you,

Coronamv, that you probably arenâ��t a lady.

07/10/2008 08:58:20 PM · #1206

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Ummmm, I'm not positive to what you are referring. The plain truth is that the mucosal tissues of the rectum are far thinner and more tearable than the mucosal tissue of the vagina. This leads to a higher risk of tears which leads to a higher risk of blood borne infection. I didn't hit any website to know that. I got it in medical school.

Yet many heterosexual couples engage in anal sex.

Once again, it's a consensual risk scenario.

Of course, it's probably immoral for a man and his wife to engage thusly, right?

07/10/2008 09:10:05 PM · #1207

Yes your right No lady here... I will accept that you for the way you phrased that statement are a lady...not just a woman or female.. SO with that I will say we can agree that there are homosexuals and Heterosexuals and Asexuals and those that beleive in a god and those that don't beleive in anything. And in those we have various degrees of magnitued. Not all straight men are gay and not all gay men are straight. So if it does not effect you then why let it bother you. I say if you want to live your life in a way that makes you happy and does not influence or have any impact one anyone who wishes not to live their life that way then go for it. Just don't be a burden on society and I mean that to everyone.. Take care of your own and leave others alone..

Originally posted by sfalice:

Originally posted by coronamv:
Yeah I kind of figured that out but it was too much fun to pass up...I was also refering to all of us...
Originally posted by Mousie:

Originally posted by coronamv:

Also, I am no lady. :)

Coronamv, just this once, I will let it pass, but please donâ��t make fun of my gender again.
I think I can assure you, Coronamv, that you probably arenâ��t a lady.

07/10/2008 09:11:37 PM · #1208

Actually Anal sex is illegal in most states and many countries around the world regardless of your sexual preference. So is a hummer.

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Ummmm, I'm not positive to what you are referring. The plain truth is that the mucosal tissues of the rectum are far thinner and more tearable than the mucosal tissue of the vagina. This leads to a higher risk of tears which leads to a higher risk of blood borne infection. I didn't hit any website to know that. I got it in medical school.

Yet many heterosexual couples engage in anal sex.

Once again, it's a consensual risk scenario.

Of course, it's probably immoral for a man and his wife to engage thusly, right?

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

07/10/2008 09:14:06 PM · #1209

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Homosexuality, IMO, falls in this category. Now, it's somewhat different because most gays are likely gay as a product of genetics and environmental exposures. I doubt many gays made some conscious decision to become gay. However, even if a gay man is a product of things beyond his control, the actions produced by such "wiring" (for lack of a better word) may still be harmful. Trying my best to not invoke insult, I would equate it with being an alcoholic. Alcoholism has a genetic component. Being an alcoholic is likely beyond the individual's control. They did not choose to be alcoholic. However, we do not condone binge drinking or other harmful behaviors just because they have a predisposition to such actions. Perhaps I can say that being gay is not harmful, practicing a gay lifestyle is (at least in my opinion).

Okay.....let me just do this.....specious argument.

Specious:â��adjective 1. apparently good or right though lacking real merit; superficially pleasing or plausible: specious arguments.

I used it twice before, so now I'm rippin' through most everything that I've had to say flinging the word around right and left.

Comparing homosexuality with addiction/alchoholism is just plain flat ridiculous.

I did not choose to have issues with my over the top, headlong behaviors when it came to things that I liked. I'm probably the true definition of a hedonist in that every time I found something I liked, I did it to extremes......just following my urges.

And that didn't just mean alchohol and drugs, it was food, sex, cars, travel, photography........there's something wrong in my "wiring" that just makes me compulsively overdo at everything I like.

When I get into trouble is when I succumb to the impulses, and take them to self-destructive levels.

A gay person that has multiple partners is no more immoral than I was during times in my life........and a gay person who is monogamous is no more like me than a unicorn.

Oh, and I'm pretty much, at least 'til this wife, not like any monogamous hetero person, either. At 53, I was definitely a product of my environment growing up in the years of free love, the sexual revolution, and open marriages.

It amuses me to a certain extent to hear the offspring of that generation trying to redefine morality.

The desire for a same sex partner can hardly be compared with the propensity for impulsive/compulsive/obsessive behavior.

And you can't possibly not know that.

thegrandwazoo

Nikon D750

07/10/2008 09:15:42 PM · #1210

Ain't Nobody's Business if You Do: The Absurdity of Consensual Crimes in Our Free Country

Tokina AF 12-24mm f/4.0 AT-X Pro DX

07/10/2008 09:22:38 PM · #1211

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Some of the above can be avoided somewhat by choices made, but not completely. Heterosexuals are also at risk for some of the above, but that doesn't mean the potential for harm does not exist in the homosexual lifestyle.

Another one I'd like to pick apart.....from your continued harping on sex, you appear to think that gay couples do nothing but have sex.

Hence your usage of the word "Lifestyle".

I'd like a clearcut definition of your so-called "homosexual lifestyle".

I mean, I have gay friends that are teachers, artists, preachers, college professors, office managers, accountants......and they come home and cook meals, do laundry, discuss the days events.....GASP!

They're just like ME!!!!!

Am *I* living the "homosexual lifestyle"?

OMIGAWD!!!! Whatever will I DO!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Granted, a little sarcastic, but do you see how ridiculous you sound with some of the claptrap you're trying to pass off?

milo655321

Nikon D70

07/10/2008 09:27:34 PM · #1212

Originally posted by coronanmv:

(...) those that beleive in a god and those that don't beleive in anything. (...)

Educate yourself! Not believing in the supernatural (god, gods, life essence, etc.) is not the same as not believing in anything. To effectly to argue against your opponent, you must first learn your opponent's actual position, not the one you make up for him to have.

Oh ... and "believe" is spelled b-e-l-i-e-v-e. ("I" before "E" except after "C" or in sounding like "A" as in "neighbor" or "weigh" ... and just ignore "height" completely because it doesn't fit the rhyme.)

Message edited by frisca - removed intentionally misspelled reference to user.

07/10/2008 09:29:57 PM · #1213

Originally posted by coronamv:

Actually Anal sex is illegal in most states and many countries around the world regardless of your sexual preference. So is a hummer.

Hey, care to back up that claim of yours?

Actually... let me do the opposite and back up the claim that, in fact, anal sex has been ruled legal by the SCotUS:

Supreme Court strikes down Texas sodomy law

"Legal analysts said the ruling enshrines for the first time a broad constitutional right to sexual privacy, and its impact would reach beyond Texas and 12 other states with similar sodomy laws applied against the gay and lesbian community, and into mainstream America."

"The petitioners are entitled to respect for their private lives," Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote for the court's majority. "The state cannot demean their existence or control their destiny by making their private sexual conduct a crime."

Daaaaamn, that one was easy!

And since when was 13 'most' of 50?

Care to recant?

Message edited by author 2008-07-11 03:24:40.

07/10/2008 09:33:45 PM · #1214

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

As far as what qualifies as "norm" I think that's clearly obvious. If a million men were surveyed and asked "have you ever had sex with a woman?" and "have you ever had sex with a man?" you'd see a big spike on the first and a small spike on the second. Statistically speaking, heterosexual sex is the "norm".

You'd have to define having sex, and use Wonder Woman's lasso o' truth, 'cause in the experimental years, many men did just that and would never admit to it now.

I am thoroughly convinced that some of the most vehement hompophobes have experimented, and it scared them because they liked it.

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

And Paul, I agree. We all know Big Macs should be illegal or at least come with a warning.

Didn't some idiot try to sue McDonald's for making her kid obese?

Like she wasn't the one who BOUGHT the food?

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Finally, I want a dollar for every time Jeb uses the word "specious". He seems to have taken a liking to it. ;)

You'd be up to four dollars.......8>)

I want a buck for every "Homosexual Lifestyle" reference......8>)

07/10/2008 09:42:02 PM · #1215

Originally posted by milo655321:

Originally posted by coronamv:
(...) those that beleive in a god and those that don't beleive in anything. (...)

Educate yourself! Not believing in the supernatural (god, gods, life essence, etc.) is not the same as not believing in anything. To effectly to argue against your opponent, you must first learn your opponent's actual position, not the one you make up for him to have.

Oh ... and "believe" is spelled b-e-l-i-e-v-e. ("I" before "E" except after "C" or in sounding like "A" as in "neighbor" or "weigh" ... and just ignore "height" completely because it doesn't fit the rhyme.)

Now now, be fair milo, you cropped off "And in those we have various degrees of magnitued" which allows a more favorable interpretation of coronamv's words... that we have a broad and multi-axial continuum of beliefs represented here in this debate, bounded by the ends described.

I'm not going to say that this interpretation is what they intended to communicate, only that the language is not phrased in a way that necessitates an interpretation that the absence of belief in a god is equivalent to the absence of belief itself.

And it's 'magnitude'. ;)

Message edited by frisca - fixed quote.

07/10/2008 09:52:14 PM · #1216

You know, it's funny......

All I really want is for the fear ignorance, and discrimination surrounded by naivetÃ© to go away.

I just know too many gay people, have too many gay friends, and have run into too much discrimination, misinformation, and handed-down cultural fear to be anything but pissed off and saddened by the treament of a whole bunch of really great PEOPLE.

These are PEOPLE that are being harassed, persecuted, denied rights and privileges that you'd go to war over if it was your family member.....

Sexual preference does not define a PERSON, their character, their values, and their deeds amongst their fellow man, and woman, define who they are.

Period.

Is that a flawed premise?

07/10/2008 09:54:22 PM · #1217

Also, to be a bit pedantic:

Why does NikonJeb get all the credit for using 'specious'? I rekindled this debate on 07/02/2008 at 09:23:25 PM after a month of quiet; the post closest to mine was made on 06/02/2008 at 05:29:45 PM. If you scan the text added after this event, you will notice that the first instance of the word 'specious' occured on 07/05/2008 at 02:49:13 PM, posted by yours truly:

"I'd like to address another insulting, specious argument I constantly have lobbed my way in these contexts"

Come ON people! Do your research! Credit where credit is due!

(I suppose this could be an analogy for the entire gay experience, come to think of it!)

Message edited by author 2008-07-10 21:56:59.

07/10/2008 09:56:53 PM · #1218

Originally posted by Mousie:

Also, to be a bit pedantic:

Why does NikonJeb get all the credit for using 'specious'? I rekindled this debate on 07/02/2008 at 09:23:25 PM after a month of quiet; the post closest to mine was made on 06/02/2008 at 05:29:45 PM.

If you scan the text added after this event, you will notice that the first instance of the word 'specious' occured on 07/05/2008 at 02:49:13 PM, posted by yours truly:

"I'd like to address another insulting, specious argument I constantly have lobbed my way in these contexts"

Come ON people! Do your research! Credit where credit is due!

(I suppose this could be an analogy for the entire gay experience, come to think of it!)

That was sooooooooo bitchy, hon!................8>)

07/10/2008 09:58:17 PM · #1219

[quote=coronamv] Yes your right No lady here... I will accept that you for the way you phrased that statement are a lady...not just a woman or female.. SO with that I will say we can agree that there are homosexuals and Heterosexuals and Asexuals and those that beleive in a god and those that don't beleive in anything. And in those we have various degrees of magnitued. Not all straight men are gay and not all gay men are straight. So if it does not effect you then why let it bother you. I say if you want to live your life in a way that makes you happy and does not influence or have any impact one anyone who wishes not to live their life that way then go for it. Just don't be a burden on society and I mean that to everyone.. Take care of your own and leave others alone..

Coronamv, I have read your post with awe. You will note I have bolded part of it.
Referring to my last post.

In the circumstances of birth, I got the â��left-handed gene.â��
My only brother, my big brother, was gifted with the â��gayâ�� gene.

Now, in my eighth decade, I have lived a long, and I hope a productive, life.
My brother lived until a few days after his 26th birthday, when he was abducted about 50 feet from a â�� what we now call a â��gayâ�� â�� bar, was taken away, robbed and brutally beaten having his brained bashed in. Yes, he was murdered. If you must, you may read some of the details here
here.

While I do not parade this information, I do want you to understand that you, and others, are not arguing in the abstract. Innocent, very innocent, people, are harmed by attitudes such as yours.

I quote you: If it does not effect(sic) you then why let it bother you... Take care of your own and leave others alone.

this is what I am trying to do. And you?

SFAlice

07/10/2008 09:58:26 PM · #1220

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

That was sooooooooo bitchy, hon!................8>)

Curse you and your quoting me before I've finalized my 1000 post-post edits!

Nikon AF-S DX 18-105 f/3.5-5.6 ED VR

07/10/2008 10:02:18 PM · #1221

Originally posted by sfalice:

I quote you: If it does not effect(sic) you then why let it bother you... Take care of your own and leave others alone.

this is what I am trying to do. And you?

SFAlice

I'm actually surprised you took that tack.

I would have phrased it more like:

This DOES effect me, profoundly and irreversably, so OF COURSE it bothers me, and I AM taking care of my own.

I am sorry for your loss, Alice. It hits very close to home.

dponlyme

Nikon D3000

07/10/2008 10:08:15 PM · #1222

Hi everybody... been on a little hiatus and I come back to reading all of this. Quite impressive. I will try to elucidate once again the point of view of most Christians. We believe in God. We believe in the Bible. The bible states unequivocally that homosexual sex is a sin. We do not want homosexuality given the same level of morality as heterosexuality. That is why we oppose gay 'marriage'. Is it as a matter of civil rights that gay marriage should be allowed? That is a matter for law and courts to decide. Our representatives in our respective state and federal law making bodies determine law. Our appointed (by our representatives) and elected Judges determine whether laws are inside or outside of the respective constitutions (state and federal). homosexual rights advocates have the right to push for the rights they feel should be recognized. Those who are against those supposed rights have the right to do the same.

That is the bare bones of it all. We will all have to live with that system. As a class of people you have it far better here than in a lot of places around the globe and additionally you have the right to keep seeking even better.

I personally believe in the immorality of the homosexual sex act but I do not believe that a person's sexual orientation is the determining factor of a person's worth as a human being. I personally believe that homosexual orientation is not something that needs to necessarily be acted upon anymore than I believe I need to act on the lust that I have for women other than my wife. I personally don't feel it is fair to be born homosexual and then not to be able to act upon it in a moral way but I also don't feel that it is fair to be born a sinful human being and then not be able to act upon my sinful nature and still be pleasing to God. It's not fair.. I was born this way. Thanks be to Jesus who died for all of my sins so that I could be reconciled and found blameless. Thanks be to Jesus and his Holy Spirit who makes sin utterly sinful and convicts me so that I may recognize and repent of my error. The Christian perspective: We all fall short of the glory of God. ALL. If we go along with an idea that makes homosexual sex moral and thus prevent you from realizing the error of your ways that might lead you to repentance then we are condemning you.

I know that you don't understand the thinking. I know you don't agree. I personally think that your rights as human beings is not where it should be whether or not I agree with the homosexual act. I know it must hurt immensely to feel rejected. Rejection is not fun for anyone. It hurts and it hurts deeply. I don't want you to feel rejected because I don't reject you I reject your action.

Please don't bother responding with a bunch of Christian hating rhetoric. Please don't bother categorizing me as narrow-minded, bigoted and the lot. It will fall on deaf ears. I already know what you think of me. You base my entire worth as a human being on whether or not I agree with you.

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

07/10/2008 10:11:20 PM · #1223

Originally posted by Mousie:

I am sorry for your loss, Alice. It hits very close to home.

Ditto. :-( My brother has suffered similar gay beatings, not deadly, but enough to put him in the hospital several times. The most severe attack came while he was riding a bicycle alone- no robbery or provocation- just being himself. Calling something a 'civil union' does nothing to address such indoctrinated hatred.

07/10/2008 10:27:08 PM · #1224

Originally posted by Mousie:

I would have phrased it more like:

This DOES effect me, profoundly and irreversably, so OF COURSE it bothers me, and I AM taking care of my own.

I am sorry for your loss, Alice. It hits very close to home.

mousie your eloquence and command of the language is excellent. There have been times when I have practically chewed up the inside of my mouth rather than respond to some of what has been typed on the page.

Each time, you have responded with poise, logic and courtesy that astounds me.

About all I can do at this point is to listen, inject what I hope is a pertinent comment or two, and make sure you know you have a backup.

edited to cross a t and dot an i or two.

Message edited by author 2008-07-10 22:28:21.