Honestly, what's the big deal about Gay Marriage?

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

07/06/2008 05:50:11 PM · #1001

Jeb, Very well put..

Louis

Nikon D800

07/06/2008 07:31:36 PM · #1002

Originally posted by dponlyme:

This opinion does not however change the fact that I value all people regardless of their sinfulness.

Off-topic, but equally offensive is the notion that the whole of humanity is "sinful". What a filthy, dirty concept. "Sin" is an archaic tribalistic shaming tool, a ghastly hoax perpetrated on an underprivileged class and carried forward by a self-aggrandizing, self-interested power elite, even to today.

Carry on. :-)

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

07/06/2008 07:42:33 PM · #1003

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by dponlyme:
Why don't you take it down a notch and instead of just spouting a bunch of angry proclamations go back and examine each post I have made since being brought back into this conversation and give clear cut examples of where I have treated anybody unfairly or with disrespect.

You're right, I have been very angry and I apologize for becoming uncorked.

I get that way when I get misquoted, or perceive having been, and I completely lost it with the comment about the sanctity of marriage.

I have been married to a wonderful woman for 25 years, I have an amazing daughter, and our family has been through more than most could imagine and come out the other side stronger for our trials.

To have that cheapened, or called into question made me see red.
Originally posted by dponlyme:
Let's try and return this to a more civil discourse. DP

Okay.

I talked to a wise friend of mine at church this morning, seeking her counsel, and that helped a bunch. She made suggestions as to how I could talk to you and try and understand, not necessarily agree with, but to at least engage without becoming completely exasperated.

Bearing in mind that her take on you is completely colored by my take on you, she still imparted some sage thoughts.

She suggested that I take into account that your perspective on the whole thing is going to remain completely different because you have completely different beliefs, nd that your set of values is a lot more concrete and black and white than mine.

My belief system remains much more open and available for input because I have not shut out the ever-changing creatures that we become over time.

You were talking about societal norms......I got the distinct impression that your point of view is as it was dictated a couple thousand years ago. That's okay with me as far as my own standard of having to respect your rights as I would have you respect mine.

I cannot live like that because this is 2008. So much of what was commonplace then is completely unacceptable today, at least for me, and I cannot accept the edicts and perspectives that cause people harm and would have them treated badly.

I'm talking about everything from slavery, the buying, selling, aned general abhorrent treatment of women, the class and race distinctions, and many more of the same things that you and I rarely even think about on a day to day basis.

One thing that I do that is radically different from the way that I was 35 years or so ago is that I am no longer able to simply accept that some of my friends are gay and that's okay. It's not enough in this evolved culture to be simply accepting; I feel that if I am to be worthy of my friends and family, I must stand up for their rights the same way that I would for women and people of other races and cultures.

Unfortunately, I have a certain amount of guilt for not having been attuned to the really abysmal way that my friends have been treated for so many years without my even realizing it.

Gays are discriminated against on so many levels it's shameful, and I wasn't really aware of it until I found my way to the church I belong to and had my eyes opened.

You know, it's funny, but there are people at my church whom I do not know whether they are gay or straight. What a powerful and warm feeling to have relationships based solely on the character of another rather than sexual orientation! I do know that they are wonderful, loving, honest, smart, funny, delightful people that I feel privileged to call my family. Isn't that something? There is the camaraderie and sense of family there that I get nowhere else for the most part.

I mention this because it's an amazing group where the age spans from infants to senior citizens, single, divorced, married, gay, straight, Republican, Catholic, Jew, Buddhist......you get the picture; and none of that matters because everyone who attends that church does so because they cannot stomach the treatment that they have received at the hands of others who would have them be something that doesn't sit well with them. Whether it be the limitations of societal law, religion, or any other glaring violation of basic human decency that's accepted societal practice, we have walked away from it all to pursue what we believe; that what we know in our faith to be good and right.

I walked in about 20 minutes early this morning, went into the sanctuary, put my camera, car keys, and the order of service down in the pew where I usually sit.......and walked out into the meeting hall where I proceeded to talk with other congregants 'til the service began. Yep, just put $1200 worth of camera and lens down and walked away from it without a second thought.

My point is that this church took me in, asked only that I be true to my search for my faith and spirituality, and that I support the other members in their right to same. We do not ask anything more of our members other than to support each other. Part of being a Unitarian Universalist is to try very hard to help deal with the ineguities of life, and as we are a welcoming congregation, our social action is very devoted to all aspects of gay rights.

Funny thing that......

The overwhelming majority of our GLBT justice initiative is.....ready?

Straight people.

The reason for that is that most of our gay friends are not looking for a place to champion for themselves, they are just looking for a place, and a family where they can be loved, cared for, and accepted for who they are as people. These members of our family simply want a place to worship and belong without prejudice.

I am deeply moved by the beauty and love that this congregation shows all of its members, and the way that they stand up and work for the betterment of society in their regard for the inherent worth and dignity of all human beings. Because of what I have learned there, I feel that I can make a difference as a straight man simply by standing up and saying that my gay friends are being discriminated against and I don't like it. And I'll vote in my community to change things, I'll stand by my friends between them and street preachers, and I get frustrated when people who don't know any better say things about homosexuality that shows fear and ignorance.

The thing that bothers me the most is that so many people go out of their way to speak out calling homosexuality immoral, indecent; they compare it to all forms of grievous behavior in their ignorance, and it really makes me nuts.

Homosexuality is not a choice, it's not a way of life, it's not a passing fancy, it just IS.....and many people are homosexual.

They are people.......they laugh, love, cry, have families, jobs, lives, hobbies, they're our friends, neighbors, and families. Why would we treat our friends, families, and neighbors badly, and not accord them the same rights, privileges, and respect that we want for ourselves?

I'm sorry if during any of my trips through this thread where I have lost my cool if I have done the same thing that I'm so vehemently against, but picture this if you will.....many gays people live with unrestrained hatred, anger, resentment, and disrespect as everyday occurrences. And they just endure it and move on with life.

That's not right.

Hey I realize that this can be a very emotionally charged issue. Maybe I should keep that in my mind a little more. This is an issue that I am removed from to a certain degree and I will double up on trying to keep that in mind. It doesn't affect my everyday existence as perhaps it does yourself and others. I guess I am guilty of not realizing just how discriminated against homosexuals are and I assume that everyone more or less treats openly gay people with the same dignity they afford to all. I gather from what I have read that is really not the case. It really does sound like you have a very nice church that you attend and you have very real relationships with your fellow church goers. It certainly doesn't sound like a bad place to be. We do have a difference in what we believe but I do get the feeling that both points of view are heartfelt and I can respect that. I accept your apology.

Now that being said maybe I can tell you where I am coming from. When I was an atheist I thought that to believe in God any God was ridiculous. I had many arguments with my Christian friends and others in regards to their beliefs. I said I was open to any proof they could give me. One of my friends suggested that if I was truly open minded to finding the truth as I said I was that I would pray for faith. Looking at it logically I determined that this was a rational thing to do. If nothing changed then I would support my own belief and live up to being the open minded person I said that I was. I read Matthew as I was asked to do and I prayed with a singleness of heart to want to know the truth. If God was real I would certainly want to know about it. My prayer went something like this "God I don't believe in you but I have read your Bibles book of Matthew and it says that if you are real then I wouldn't have to worry ever again because you would supply me with everything I need if I simply seek you. It says knock and the door will be opened so I'm knocking and asking for faith in you. I don't expect anything to change but if you are real then I would like to know." I didn't expect anything to happen. Only problem was that it did. He revealed himself to me. He gave me faith that I most assuredly could not have conjured up on my own. I began to pray because I believed and he answered my prayers. The more I read the Bible and prayed the more I understood the nature of God as revealed in the Bible. I realized that a lot of the behavior I thought was Okay was not in his eyes and since he is God and the creator of Heaven and Earth that he probably knows more than I. So many people have stated that if (insert thing they don't agree with ) that's the way God is then I want nothing to do with him. All I can say to that is I can't deny the God who loves me and blesses me and stands by me in all my circumstances because I don't agree with him in my very limited human reasoning. It is my thought that who am I to stand against God. Since the Holy Bible is the word of God as it is revealed to me then I have no choice but to accept that God is right and every man is wrong.

togtog

Nikon D300

07/06/2008 07:52:09 PM · #1004

I think it is all silly, most Christians have no idea about the hidden message, the hidden sin in the bible that most of them commit yet celebrate...

All of mankind has sin, ok, you think you know what that means, but you don't! Where did sin come from? Lets go back to Genesis...

God makes earth, God makes Guy, Guy in paradise, gets lonely, gets pets, still lonely, gets Girl...

Guy and Girl live in happy bliss, God warns not to eat fruit from tree for they will surely die.

Snake comes along and tempts Girl, Girl tempts Guy, both eat fruit from tree...

God comes along and says whoa no way, you eat fruit from that tree?...

Guy and Girl lie, oh no, we would not...

God notices them covering selves and asks why do they hide...

They admit to eating the fruit and God gets angry...

He banishes both from paradise and curses Guy to toil in the fields and the Girl to suffer the pain of birth...

She gets knocked up and has a son...

This is not a story of fruit, snakes, and sins. It is a story of childhood and coming of age. The bliss of being protected by ones parents, growing up and finding another, falling in love or lust, having sex, and having a child. The children (Guy and Girl) cannot stay in their parents (Gods) home, the father must find his own home and work, the woman experiences the pain of child birth and can no longer be a child herself.

It is all very obvious. When God told them they would surely die, he meant their childhoods, who they are would end and they would be forced to grow up. Any parent can relate to this feeling. Mankind is cursed with "sin" because if God couldn't raise them not to fool around with either other they surely would fail and their children would bear the same burdens, and their children's children.

The desire to hide themselves could be either the onset of hair covering parts of the body, or the self conscience that comes in the early teens.

So, the deed was done, no backing out now. So God tells them to go forth and have lots of kids and stuff because he wants to be a grandfather, he knew it was going to happen anyway but didn't want them to feel bad or guilty about it.

Fast forward to Jesus, Jesus married the church and from most records did not have children, nor sex. He was demonstrating the true path, giving oneself to the church and God and not to having children.

Fast forward to today and we are having problems with STDs, over population, etc. This is the result of mankind's curse.

The solution is to stop having sex and kids, this will bring about the end times for mankind and once that is tied up and finished God can get on with his work in his new garden.

So, yeah...

07/06/2008 10:04:17 PM · #1005

Originally posted by togtog:

I think it is all silly, most Christians have no idea about the hidden message, the hidden sin in the bible that most of them commit yet celebrate...

So, yeah...

That's not my understanding of the story but it is very interesting. Thanks for sharing that.

Message edited by author 2008-07-06 22:19:17.

mjwood0

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

07/07/2008 09:09:17 AM · #1006

Originally posted by pjangel:

Originally posted by pjangel:
To the Bible Quoters...
I'm sure that you all follow these laws also... right???
None of you have had haircuts or men, shaved your beards. And I'm sure that non of you ever wear any type of clothing that has any kind of mixed material... cotton/polyester?

Leviticus 19:19
â��You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together.
Leviticus 19:27
You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard.

If you're going to follow the book of fiction known as the Bible, then follow all of it!

Still curious as to why all of the Christians here who follow the Bible so closely still haven't responded as to why they don't abide by all of the teachings in this fictional novel??

You've asked repeatedly that someone answer your questions and I feel that I'd be doing a disservice by not at least attempting. Please understand, the following are my beliefs and therefore, someone is guaranteed to disagree. Also, please understand that I'm at work and therefore, don't have my Bible handy for reference and passage.

Also, for the record, calling the Bible (which is held dear to the Christian faith) a "work of fiction" is probably one of the worst ways of opening a discussion with someone and therefore, getting your questions answered. If this is how you treat those around you (insulting things they care about), I would be surprised if you get very many answers to sincere questions. Therefore, I'm going to assume you actually care about the answer and do my best.

First and foremost, I've never met a Christian who claimed to be perfect and follow all of God's laws and teachings. We are human and therefore, incapable of attaining utter perfection. I don't believe we're all horrible, bad, sinful people. But I know from experience that I can only do my best and therefore, only expect others to do their bests. Call it what you will, I feel it's a practical viewpoint.

Secondly, through my readings and study, I have come to the belief that the Old Testament of the Bible is a historical account of the beginnings of the Christian Church. I feel that there is a great deal of teaching in these books, but the New Testament reworks some of the Christian Laws and removes some of the strictness found in the Old Testament. Again, my views. While I would completely respect a person who chose to follow these laws if they believed it furthered their faith, I don't personally keep either of these traditions.

There are books written and many more that could be written on this exact topic -- and I'm purposely keeping it brief. At the end of the day, I believe a Christian is one who has acknowledged that Jesus died for our sins and who lives every day to the betterment of themselves, those around them and lives the best life they can.

I prefer to leave many (not all) of the details up to the individual and their particular beliefs / faith.

Again, just my attempt to answer your questions as I see them relating to my life. Other's answers may be very different.

Message edited by author 2008-07-07 09:11:26.

one2one

Olympus E-5

Olympus 7-14mm f/4.0 Zuiko Digital Zoom

07/07/2008 09:50:20 AM · #1007

Well this thread has turned into a thread about defending christianity and the people who abide by the rules. It only shows where we're at with religion and homosexuality in today's mindset. It's an undeniable fact that the only obstacle to people (gays) living together and living out happy, thoughtful, meaningful lives is religion and the people who abide by all the little rules so well written and concise for today's world. Yes i'm being cynical. No other organization speaks out against homosexuality except the religious ones. What have they got to fear? The destruction of the human race? Their own fears of being gay?

Homosexuality has been around for a long time. Way before the Jesus dude walked the Earth. Way before Roman rule. Way before Egypt was a force on this planet. Way way before organized religion, family, society. It's part of nature and cannot be stopped or slowed or put to the side and forgotten. Accept it and move on thinking that they can't hurt you or change your values. You will remain who you are even if Dick and John do things you wouldn't. It's none of your business and they feel the same about what you do, it's none of their business either. So why not just accept it and go on with your life while letting these people do what they want to do which isn't any different than what you and your family wants; peace, quality of life, family and friends. ( and everything you and your spouse are entitled to)

Nobody loses by accepting others as they are. We're all winners.

NikonJeb

Nikon D850

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 28-300mm f3.5-5.6G ED VR

07/07/2008 10:33:14 AM · #1008

Originally posted by Jac:

It's part of nature and cannot be stopped or slowed or put to the side and forgotten. Accept it and move on thinking that they can't hurt you or change your values. You will remain who you are even if Dick and John do things you wouldn't. It's none of your business and they feel the same about what you do, it's none of their business either. So why not just accept it and go on with your life while letting these people do what they want to do which isn't any different than what you and your family wants; peace, quality of life, family and friends. ( and everything you and your spouse are entitled to)

Nobody loses by accepting others as they are. We're all winners.

Nicely said.

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

07/07/2008 11:09:07 AM · #1009

Originally posted by mjwood0:

...through my readings and study, I have come to the belief that the Old Testament of the Bible is a historical account of the beginnings of the Christian Church. I feel that there is a great deal of teaching in these books, but the New Testament reworks some of the Christian Laws and removes some of the strictness found in the Old Testament...

This is a fairly astonishing statement...

The Old Testament is the testament of the Jewish people. Of whom Christ was one... It is not an "account of the beginning of the Christian church" in any way, shape or form, unless you want to go totally bizarro on us and relegate the position of the Jews (one of the world's great religions) to "precursors of Christianity".

To say that the New Testament "reworks some of the Christian laws" is ridiculous; before the New testament there WAS no Christian law, no Christianity, basically, allowing for a little slop room between the crucifixion and the first book of what is now the new testament.

R.

mjwood0

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

07/07/2008 11:52:03 AM · #1010

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by mjwood0:

...through my readings and study, I have come to the belief that the Old Testament of the Bible is a historical account of the beginnings of the Christian Church. I feel that there is a great deal of teaching in these books, but the New Testament reworks some of the Christian Laws and removes some of the strictness found in the Old Testament...

This is a fairly astonishing statement...

The Old Testament is the testament of the Jewish people. Of whom Christ was one... It is not an "account of the beginning of the Christian church" in any way, shape or form, unless you want to go totally bizarro on us and relegate the position of the Jews (one of the world's great religions) to "precursors of Christianity".

Perhaps I wasn't clear or I'm misunderstanding the problem. The history of Christianity starts with the history of the Jewish laws and customs. As you said, Christ was Jewish. I'm in no way saying "precursor", I'm saying that Christianity, in many ways, has a Jewish heritage.

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

To say that the New Testament "reworks some of the Christian laws" is ridiculous; before the New testament there WAS no Christian law, no Christianity, basically, allowing for a little slop room between the crucifixion and the first book of what is now the new testament.

R.

I do agree that Christian Law didn't exist before the New Testament. What I don't agree with is that there was no influence of the Jewish laws on the Christian laws provided in the New Testament. Some Christians are hung up on Old Testament law. What I was trying to get at (and re-reading my post realize I somewhat missed the boat) was that I choose to embrace the New Testament (aka Christian) laws and not the Old Testament (Jewish) laws. I really don't understand why this distinction must be made. However, having talked with many different groups who call themselves Christian, I've realized that Old Testament law is still taught as Christian Law -- hence the basis for so much confusion.

Thanks for clarifying. I've always struggled with the written word as it never seems that my writing properly conveys my underlying intentions.

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

07/07/2008 12:17:41 PM · #1011

Originally posted by mjwood0:

Thanks for clarifying. I've always struggled with the written word as it never seems that my writing properly conveys my underlying intentions.

Okey-doke. It was a semantic issue, not a conceptual one. Your position, as expanded upon, is sensible. A close reading of the original statement shows that it was, at best, ambiguous and at worst totally misinformed :-) So I am glad we got that cleared up.

R.

NikonJeb

Nikon D850

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 28-300mm f3.5-5.6G ED VR

07/07/2008 12:18:48 PM · #1012

Originally posted by mjwood0:

I've always struggled with the written word as it never seems that my writing properly conveys my underlying intentions.

You know, if people would read the Bible with that same concept in mind, there would be so much less bitter squabbling about its veracity and who knows the "True Word".

STILL written and transcribed by people over many years in multiple different versions and languages.

The whole concept of "Literal Translation" with that book completely escapes me.

07/07/2008 02:58:10 PM · #1013

Originally posted by Jac:

Well this thread has turned into a thread about defending christianity and the people who abide by the rules. It only shows where we're at with religion and homosexuality in today's mindset. [b] It's an undeniable fact that the only obstacle to people (gays) living together and living out happy, thoughtful, meaningful lives is religion [b] and the people who abide by all the little rules so well written and concise for today's world. Yes i'm being cynical. No other organization speaks out against homosexuality except the religious ones. What have they got to fear? The destruction of the human race? Their own fears of being gay?

Homosexuality has been around for a long time. Way before the Jesus dude walked the Earth. Way before Roman rule. Way before Egypt was a force on this planet. Way way before organized religion, family, society. It's part of nature and cannot be stopped or slowed or put to the side and forgotten. Accept it and move on thinking that they can't hurt you or change your values. You will remain who you are even if Dick and John do things you wouldn't. It's none of your business and they feel the same about what you do, it's none of their business either. So why not just accept it and go on with your life while letting these people do what they want to do which isn't any different than what you and your family wants; peace, quality of life, family and friends. ( and everything you and your spouse are entitled to)

Nobody loses by accepting others as they are. We're all winners.

I understand your point of view as one who does not believe in God. I respect your opinion and it definitely has some validity I think. However I think you are giving too much power to other people when you make the bolded statement. Happy, thoughtful, and meaningful are things that can't be taken away by anyone if you choose not to let them take it. I'm quite sure there are many gay people who live happy, thoughtful and meaningful lives even with the current state of law. You also fail to note that there are Christian's who are also gay. I'm quite sure they would disagree that they are not happy and thoughtful and live meaningless lives. I get the gist of your statement that religion is the primary force behind non-acceptance of gay marriage and other gay rights but wanted to add my thoughts on your sweeping assessment of the current state of affairs.

edit: well I can't get it to bold the text but I think you get what I am saying.

Message edited by author 2008-07-07 15:03:04.

07/07/2008 03:48:13 PM · #1014

I have done a little research into the gay rights situation and I definitely agree that things should be better. State by state rights is not really fair as one state may not recognize a civil union that was gotten in another state. In todays world where transportation is extremely fast and economies are fluid it should not have to be a consideration of where to take a job so as to be able to have a union recognized legally. If civil unions are to be it should be paramount that they be recognized across all of the states and internationally for that matter. This would secure property rights for those whose partner died and guarantee all of the benefits that would normally be associated with marriage. I'm not against treating gay people in a fair and equitable manner as it relates to legal standing. I am against calling it marriage as this confers a religious connotation to it in my opinion. Perhaps the government should only recognize civil unions and leave marriage to religion. After all if a 'marriage' is not a marriage in the eyes of God then it doesn't count as a marriage in my eyes anyway. edit: It is just a civil union and that includes a lot of heterosexual marriages as well.

Message edited by author 2008-07-07 15:52:49.

scalvert

07/07/2008 03:59:25 PM · #1015

Originally posted by dponlyme:

After all if a 'marriage' is not a marriage in the eyes of God then it doesn't count as a marriage in my eyes anyway.

Suddenly, half a billion Hindu marriages are null, and many Christians realize that they are the illegitimate descendants of sham Greek or Roman marriages...

Message edited by author 2008-07-07 16:03:29.

mjwood0

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

07/07/2008 04:07:13 PM · #1016

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by dponlyme:
After all if a 'marriage' is not a marriage in the eyes of God then it doesn't count as a marriage in my eyes anyway.

Suddenly, half a billion Hindu marriages are null, and many Christians realize that they are the illegitimate descendants of sham Greek or Roman marriages...

To be fair, he was careful to say "...in my eyes anyway."

Clearly, you disagree.

NikonJeb

Nikon D850

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 28-300mm f3.5-5.6G ED VR

07/07/2008 04:22:36 PM · #1017

Originally posted by dponlyme:

I am against calling it marriage as this confers a religious connotation to it in my opinion.

My first marriage ended quickly and badly.

I was married with all the pomp and circumstance of a full-blown WASP wedding in an Episcopal cathedral.

The second, to the woman I've now been a part of life with for the last 30 years, was in the municipal building of the town we lived by a district magistrate.

So......is the second really only a civil union since it wasn't done in a church and officiated by a member of the clergy?

I kind of think that our marriage has been about the sanctity of the union and the institution; where we were married and under what circumstances is really secondary.

Most of my gay friends who would like to marry understand and appreciate the distinction, but they also feel it's an all or nothing kind of deal.

I agree. I sdon't think where you're married, or by whom makes a hill of beans of difference, but the institution is very relevant.

scalvert

07/07/2008 04:26:04 PM · #1018

Originally posted by mjwood0:

To be fair, he was careful to say "...in my eyes anyway."

Oh, I understood that it was his opinion. I was hinting that the definition renders pretty much everyone an illegitimate descendant of some invalid marriage since Christianity, and even monotheism itself, are relatively "recent" concepts. OTOH, most of our ancient ancestors probably wouldn't consider a Christian marriage valid either, so in a weird way it sort of balances out. ;-)

rossbilly

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.4D

07/07/2008 04:32:06 PM · #1019

Originally posted by dponlyme:

... After all if a 'marriage' is not a marriage in the eyes of God then it doesn't count as a marriage in my eyes anyway. edit: It is just a civil union and that includes a lot of heterosexual marriages as well.

So, what about the persons who've been married in churches, but no longer believe the things they once believed? For example, two people grow up Baptist & get married in their community church. They leave for the military/college/jobs, and meet lots of new people who help them to realize that things aren't quite as black & white as they've been taught. People really are just people, and not blasphemous demons out to capture souls. Multi-racial & multi-cultural suddenly means that they learn beautiful things from amazing families all over the world.

What happens when they return home for a visit, and realize that the beliefs of there 'raising' are not the beliefs they now hold? Regardless which beliefs they now ascribe, are you claiming that THEIR marriage is now void, simply because they no longer agree with the views of a church they once attended?

The holes in your story are rather large - but it sounds as though their MAY be a small glimmer of recognition in your responses. Keep talking. Maybe we'll get you to see the lesson many of us have already learned*.

*As a former 'saved-by-the-grace' member of several decades, I can truly say that my life has improved greatly by casting off the chains of religion from my youth. I treat ALL people with more love and respect than I ever have in my life... and I hope that you can learn to do the same.

togtog

Nikon D300

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

07/07/2008 04:33:49 PM · #1020

To have a real marriage takes a goat, two chickens, or a handful of bullsquids, all this talk of voodoo moodoo marriage is driving me just crazy, you keep yourselves out of our traditions and go back to your moodoo hoodoo stuff yourself!

07/07/2008 09:38:40 PM · #1021

After all if a 'marriage' is not a marriage in the eyes of God then it doesn't count as a marriage in my eyes anyway. edit: It is just a civil union and that includes a lot of heterosexual marriages as well.

Honestly people. With all that I wrote this is what you cling to in order to be indignant about me and my opinions? Did you really think that I would think a marriage is a real marriage if God didn't see it that way? I am really disappointed in all of you. You seem to look for offense rather than mutual understanding. How can so many of you be like that? Unfortunately you are all wrong in your perception of what I was saying. I certainly wasn't nullifying marriages across a spectrum of religions or because they weren't performed in a church by a clergyman or whatever other supposed slight I have performed with that statement. It's in God's hands what he accepts and does not. He is the judge of peoples hearts. Not me. I cannot identify and know what marriages are real in God's eyes. I do know that you don't have to be a believer in my religion to have your marriage be valid in God's eyes as it talks about it in the Bible. There is also no mention of Church's in Genesis and people were married back then so I would doubt that is the 'rule'. I gotta tell you it sure does seem like some of you have just decided that you don't like me and wish I would go away. If you want me to stop posting please make your wishes known. If you all want me to stop then I will because I have never been looking for a fight but simply to put my thoughts out their and if necessary to defend my thought or change my thinking on some things and be open minded. I have learned quite a bit from this conversation and it has made me more empathetic to the discrimination that Gay people must face but like I say if you don't want to hear from me then just let me know. It's not imperative that I post here if this is just a forum for gay people and those that agree wholeheartedly with the gay agenda.

edit: I see that rossbilly at least wants me to keep posting. Any others?
*I don't agree with the assessment that you have to renounce belief in God in order to treat people well and as they should be. In fact the opposite is true in my opinion.

Message edited by author 2008-07-07 21:52:02.

pjangel

07/07/2008 09:43:49 PM · #1022

Careful DP,
We don't have an agenda...

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

07/07/2008 09:54:10 PM · #1023

Originally posted by pjangel:

Careful DP,
We don't have an agenda...

You don't? I thought your agenda was to gain all of your civil rights and to be treated in a fair and equitable way by the legal system. Is that not right?

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

07/07/2008 10:00:52 PM · #1024

Originally posted by dponlyme:

Originally posted by pjangel:
Careful DP,
We don't have an agenda...

You don't? I thought your agenda was to gain all of your civil rights and to be treated in a fair and equitable way by the legal system. Is that not right?

Well sure, but that's not a "gay-specific" agenda. That's fundamental stuff. All human beings should support the "agenda" of civil rights and equitable treatment across the boards.

R.