Honestly, what's the big deal about Gay Marriage?

07/06/2008 01:28:27 AM · #977

Guess we'll just have to "Agree to Disagree"... have a good evening.

Melethia

Canon EOS-80D

07/06/2008 01:40:27 AM · #978

Originally posted by Wildcard:

I feel it's time for a little Roy Zimmerman, of course I could be alone in that.

Heh!! Nice link.

07/06/2008 01:48:40 AM · #979

Originally posted by Wildcard:

I feel it's time for a little Roy Zimmerman, of course I could be alone in that.

That was some funny stuff. I really mean that. I like comedy even if it doesn't agree with my point of view. I like George Carlin a lot (see the George Carlin thread) and he didn't agree with my point of view on religion either but he was funny.

Tamron AF 55-200mm F4-5.6 LD Di-II for Canon

07/06/2008 01:50:44 AM · #980

Originally posted by pjangel:

Guess we'll just have to "Agree to Disagree"... have a good evening.

That we can agree on! And theirs nothing wrong with disagreeing. I can respect that. You have a good evening too.

Wildcard

Canon EOS-20D

07/06/2008 02:20:39 AM · #981

Originally posted by dponlyme:

Anyone that laughs at Roy can't be all bad dponlyme :P

Seriously though, it's nice to know that humour can still appeal to both sides of an argument, it gives me hope that there may be some common ground.

Tamron SP AF 90mm f/2.8 Di for Nikon

07/06/2008 07:28:03 AM · #982

Originally posted by dponlyme:

Hmmmm the real NikonJeb stands up: 'you people' is something that reminds me of racist and prejudiced talk- nice touch. Could it be that because I don't believe as you do that you are villifying me and in fact most of Christianity? What makes you so sure that you are right anyway? You have no throttle hold on the truth. I have stated my beliefs as based on my belief in the Bible and the Christian God. You are the one being condescending in portending to know the absolute truth in this matter based on nothing but your own assessment of fairness. You are the one who continues to ascribe personal feelings into this discussion. You are the one who refers to people as 'lesser humans' 'wack jobs' 'pinheads'. I hesitate to think what you might be saying if you believed in marriage between a man and a woman as sacred. What vile words would poor forth from your mouth then. You would not be a good advocate for a position on either side of this discussion. You obviously have a problem with anger. Maybe you should seek counseling. Maybe you should pray to the God that you have made up in your head that agrees with all of your opinions. BTW I have complete assurance of my salvation because I believe the Bible when it says that I do. I also have lost all respect for you so it is mutual.

Do you actually read these posts?

Please show me anywhere I stated, and/or claimed to be right.

That's my whole issue with you, and "Your Kind".

And by "Your Kind" I am talking about the judgemental, self-righteous, narrow-minded people who think that their interpretation is the only way to think or believe at the expense of anything or anyone who doesn't agree with them.

I don't care one whit if you think the way I do; just don't harass, discriminate against, or persecute anyone just because YOU think they're wrong.

I do not care what you do or don't believe. You have repeatedly demonstrated that you will not hear anything but what you want to hear.

I NEVER said I even know what the truth is, in fact, I have REPEATEDLY said that I do NOT know, so where do you get off with this "You have no throttle hold on the truth."?

I have nothing but disdain for the self-righteous attitude that you have where you continue to quote out of context, ignore the relevant issues, and repeatedly refuse to answer the most basic questions that obviously make you squirm.

Racist and prejudiced talk??????

How on earth did racism become part of an issue here?

Prejudiced? You bet!

Whatever you are, as far as makeup as a human being is something I am vehemently opposed to on so many levels.

Yep, I do have a problem with anger......people, like you, who hold the dangerous and discriminatory beliefs that you do, and act the way you do PISS ME OFF!

I do see a therapist. I also pray that God would give me strength to try and be understanding of you and people who think and act as you do.

But sometimes it's to no avail.

See, you sit there and say things like "I hesitate to think what you might be saying if you believed in marriage between a man and a woman as sacred.".

Now see, the way that comes across to me is that it makes you an asshole in my eyes.

Why would you say that?

I very much believe that marriage between a man and a woman is sacred.

I very much believe that the institution of marriage is sacred.

I believe that marriage between any two people who love each other and who will make the ultimate commitment to each other is sacred.

The way you twist people's words, misquote, ascribe meaning, and are just generally screw up the entire context of every single part of the discussion just amazes me to no end.

Read this very carefully: IF you are an example of what a good Christian is, then you are exactly why I want no parts of it.

That is a simple statement, there is no need for trying to paraphrase it, dissect the meaning, or read anything not said into it.

I will repeat it: IF you are an example of what a good Christian is, then you are exactly why I want no parts of it.

One last thing......With no qualifier, I have met way more decent, loving, committed, compassionate, responsible, caring, honest gay people than Christians.

P.S. My therapist would remind me that attaching too much importance to what I don't believe anyway and cannot change is a sure way to aggravate myself unnecessarily. He would have me be mindful and not succumb to pointless arguments with someone who refuses to be reasonable on any level. I'll have to print out the last thirty posts or so and see what he thinks.

Personally, I don't think he'd much care for your attitude towards your fellow man, either........I know he has gay friends, too, because he too is a caring, understanding, compassionte man.

Message edited by author 2008-07-06 07:35:32.

JMart

Nikon D80

07/06/2008 09:17:08 AM · #983

dponlyme mentioned George Carlin, so I thought it might be appropriate to share some of Carlin's humor on this subject:

Now, speaking of consistency, Catholics (which I was until I reached the age of reason) and other Christians are against abortions and they're against homosexuals. Well, Who has less abortions than homosexuals?!?! Leave these f***in' people alone for Christ sake! Here is an entire class of people guaranteed NEVER to have an abortion and the Catholics and the Christians are just tossin' 'em aside. you'd think they'd make natural allies.

You can see this act for yourself at about 7:20 into this clip:
//www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrXvDXVhqfU&feature=related

one2one

Olympus E-5

Olympus 7-14mm f/4.0 Zuiko Digital Zoom

07/06/2008 09:20:59 AM · #984

Originally posted by Wildcard:

I feel it's time for a little Roy Zimmerman, of course I could be alone in that.

Fantastic! He's so right.

Why can't we all live together without any discrimination?

Because of the bible.

PS, just as I finished writing the damn church bells start their Sunday morning ritual of waking people up at 9 on a Sunday morning after a hard long week's work, Thank you, not!

Guess i'll be making another complaint to city hall about the noise they cause.

one2one

Olympus E-5

Olympus 7-14mm f/4.0 Zuiko Digital Zoom

07/06/2008 09:25:37 AM · #985

Originally posted by JMart:

Thanks John, I had prepared a post in defense of GC's way of thinking but decided not to because, once again, it was a little too poignant in how I felt. When a religionist says he likes George Carlin I get this uneasy feeling the world will cave in and go poof! As for myself, I do not like any religious comedian that makes fun of my beliefs. If I did laugh at it it's because I probably didn't get the joke.

Message edited by author 2008-07-06 09:26:15.

Canon FD 70-210mm f/4.0 MF

07/06/2008 01:39:33 PM · #986

[thumb]695822[/thumb]

shutterpuppy

Sony Alpha a7

07/06/2008 01:53:32 PM · #987

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by dponlyme:
There are of course exceptions to this such as a couple who is infertile or just plain selfish and deciding not to have children purposefully

Why is deciding to make the commitment to another and not to have children selfish?

I used to get the "you're being selfish" thing a lot when I first took steps to ensure that I would not be passing along my genetic code. I used to argue with the person, noting that to bring a child into the world when you have no desire to do so just to satisfy the tenents of the moral dogma of the day would seem to be more selfish; or that perhaps people who have children without thinking through the decision to do so were perhaps being selfish, irresponsible, or just unthinking sheep. Now I find that it is just so much easier to say, "you're right, I'm selfish." While I definitely have noticed that the open hostility toward childless-by-choice couple and individuals has been going down in recent years as more and more people make that choice, I still occasionally come across the negative attitude. What I find truly interesting is that almost always the hostility is accompanied by the sense that these people think I am "getting away" with something. Not paying my dues to society or some such. Perhaps they wished they had thought more about the choice themselves?

shutterpuppy

Sony Alpha a7

Canon FD 70-210mm f/4.0 MF

07/06/2008 01:56:48 PM · #988

Originally posted by dponlyme:

I don't fear anything... why is it so hard for you to understand that I don't have to hate or condemn someone just because I don't agree with them? . . . the Christians sin will be forgiven if they truly repent of the sin in their heart and accept God's grace.

It's hard to understand, because it is demonstrably false. To say that someone is immoral is to condemn them. To say that "it's not me, it's the teaching of my god that I have decided to believe in" doesn't save you, it just makes you seem even less reasoned.

shutterpuppy

Sony Alpha a7

Canon FD 70-210mm f/4.0 MF

07/06/2008 02:05:22 PM · #989

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

[thumb]695822[/thumb]

What a great organization, Jeb. (Also - looking quite slim and svelte there bub. :)

07/06/2008 02:08:25 PM · #990

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by dponlyme:

Hmmmm the real NikonJeb stands up: 'you people' is something that reminds me of racist and prejudiced talk- nice touch. Could it be that because I don't believe as you do that you are villifying me and in fact most of Christianity? What makes you so sure that you are right anyway? You have no throttle hold on the truth. I have stated my beliefs as based on my belief in the Bible and the Christian God. You are the one being condescending in portending to know the absolute truth in this matter based on nothing but your own assessment of fairness. You are the one who continues to ascribe personal feelings into this discussion. You are the one who refers to people as 'lesser humans' 'wack jobs' 'pinheads'. I hesitate to think what you might be saying if you believed in marriage between a man and a woman as sacred. What vile words would poor forth from your mouth then. You would not be a good advocate for a position on either side of this discussion. You obviously have a problem with anger. Maybe you should seek counseling. Maybe you should pray to the God that you have made up in your head that agrees with all of your opinions. BTW I have complete assurance of my salvation because I believe the Bible when it says that I do. I also have lost all respect for you so it is mutual.

Do you actually read these posts?

Please show me anywhere I stated, and/or claimed to be right.

That's my whole issue with you, and "Your Kind".

And by "Your Kind" I am talking about the judgemental, self-righteous, narrow-minded people who think that their interpretation is the only way to think or believe at the expense of anything or anyone who doesn't agree with them.

I don't care one whit if you think the way I do; just don't harass, discriminate against, or persecute anyone just because YOU think they're wrong.

I do not care what you do or don't believe. You have repeatedly demonstrated that you will not hear anything but what you want to hear.

I NEVER said I even know what the truth is, in fact, I have REPEATEDLY said that I do NOT know, so where do you get off with this "You have no throttle hold on the truth."?

I have nothing but disdain for the self-righteous attitude that you have where you continue to quote out of context, ignore the relevant issues, and repeatedly refuse to answer the most basic questions that obviously make you squirm.

Racist and prejudiced talk??????

How on earth did racism become part of an issue here?

Prejudiced? You bet!

Whatever you are, as far as makeup as a human being is something I am vehemently opposed to on so many levels.

Yep, I do have a problem with anger......people, like you, who hold the dangerous and discriminatory beliefs that you do, and act the way you do PISS ME OFF!

I do see a therapist. I also pray that God would give me strength to try and be understanding of you and people who think and act as you do.

But sometimes it's to no avail.

See, you sit there and say things like "I hesitate to think what you might be saying if you believed in marriage between a man and a woman as sacred.".

Now see, the way that comes across to me is that it makes you an asshole in my eyes.

Why would you say that?

I very much believe that marriage between a man and a woman is sacred.

I very much believe that the institution of marriage is sacred.

I believe that marriage between any two people who love each other and who will make the ultimate commitment to each other is sacred.

The way you twist people's words, misquote, ascribe meaning, and are just generally screw up the entire context of every single part of the discussion just amazes me to no end.

Read this very carefully: IF you are an example of what a good Christian is, then you are exactly why I want no parts of it.

That is a simple statement, there is no need for trying to paraphrase it, dissect the meaning, or read anything not said into it.

I will repeat it: IF you are an example of what a good Christian is, then you are exactly why I want no parts of it.

One last thing......With no qualifier, I have met way more decent, loving, committed, compassionate, responsible, caring, honest gay people than Christians.

P.S. My therapist would remind me that attaching too much importance to what I don't believe anyway and cannot change is a sure way to aggravate myself unnecessarily. He would have me be mindful and not succumb to pointless arguments with someone who refuses to be reasonable on any level. I'll have to print out the last thirty posts or so and see what he thinks.

Personally, I don't think he'd much care for your attitude towards your fellow man, either........I know he has gay friends, too, because he too is a caring, understanding, compassionte man.

Why don't you take it down a notch and instead of just spouting a bunch of angry proclamations go back and examine each post I have made since being brought back into this conversation and give clear cut examples of where I have treated anybody unfairly or with disrespect. If I have I would like it pointed out to me with clear cut examples of where I have gone wrong. As far as I see it the only thing I have done is to take a different position than yours on the issue of whether Gay's should be allowed to get 'married'. I did not seek to keep them from having the same rights in the eyes of the law as concerns the governmental or private benefits that married people have through a civil union. I have not called anyone names as you have. I have not called anyones value or worth into question. You don't claim to be right necessarily but then you continue on to tell me how terrible I am in your eyes for having a different opinion. To me this seems a little inconsistent. I am capable of misunderstanding things especially in written form without body language and inflection to guide interpretation so if I have misinterpreted your 'lesser human' comment then I apologize for that. Perhaps you weren't referring to me as you say but the way you attack me now it is hard to believe. I know for a fact you must misinterpret some of my words if you ascribe to me anything other than disagreeing with your opinion on this issue. Please don't let this get to you and cause yourself to have a melt down. Your therapist is right that this discussion is not that important in the whole scheme of things. You already know there are those that will disagree with you and vice-versa. Let's try and return this to a more civil discourse. DP

07/06/2008 02:25:30 PM · #991

Originally posted by shutterpuppy:

Originally posted by dponlyme:
I don't fear anything... why is it so hard for you to understand that I don't have to hate or condemn someone just because I don't agree with them? . . . the Christians sin will be forgiven if they truly repent of the sin in their heart and accept God's grace.

It's hard to understand, because it is demonstrably false. To say that someone is immoral is to condemn them. To say that "it's not me, it's the teaching of my god that I have decided to believe in" doesn't save you, it just makes you seem even less reasoned.

I am not trying to seem reasoned to you. I know that you do not feel that any religious beliefs are reasoned so it is pointless to even try to reason with someone on this issue who does not give any credence to the reasons that you have. I am not trying to convert you to my understanding of right and wrong. BTW to say that someone is immoral is to say that they sin and we all sin so we all are immoral but I didn't even say that. Actions are immoral. I said that the act of homosexual sex was immoral. People do immoral things but cannot be labeled in their entirety as immoral as all of their acts are not immoral. As has been pointed out, most gay people who wish to get 'married' are most probably good and decent folks who treat people with respect and abide by the law and seek to help others and so on. The good that they do is not negated by what I consider to be immoral anymore than the good I do is negated when I sin. I'll say it again, people are human beings, all deserving of respect but that does not mean they are sin free. All have sinned and fallen short of mark of perfection. It's just that I don't seek to make my sins acceptable by shrouding them in the religious context of marriage. You don't have to agree with me that homosexual sex is sinful but that is my opinion and it's not going to change and the reason for that you can never accept. This opinion does not however change the fact that I value all people regardless of their sinfulness.

07/06/2008 02:41:50 PM · #992

Originally posted by shutterpuppy:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by dponlyme:
There are of course exceptions to this such as a couple who is infertile or just plain selfish and deciding not to have children purposefully

Why is deciding to make the commitment to another and not to have children selfish?

I used to get the "you're being selfish" thing a lot when I first took steps to ensure that I would not be passing along my genetic code. I used to argue with the person, noting that to bring a child into the world when you have no desire to do so just to satisfy the tenents of the moral dogma of the day would seem to be more selfish; or that perhaps people who have children without thinking through the decision to do so were perhaps being selfish, irresponsible, or just unthinking sheep. Now I find that it is just so much easier to say, "you're right, I'm selfish." While I definitely have noticed that the open hostility toward childless-by-choice couple and individuals has been going down in recent years as more and more people make that choice, I still occasionally come across the negative attitude. What I find truly interesting is that almost always the hostility is accompanied by the sense that these people think I am "getting away" with something. Not paying my dues to society or some such. Perhaps they wished they had thought more about the choice themselves?

While I am not openly hostile towards childless couples I do tend to think of it as selfishness. Perhaps I need to rethink that as it is presumptuous of me to think I know their thinking and reasons.

Melethia

Canon EOS-80D

07/06/2008 03:14:48 PM · #993

My sister and her husband are childless (not counting the furry kids) because of medical issues. They knew this going into the marriage. Should they have never married? Was it selfish of her husband to marry her when he could have married someone else and procreated?

I am not only childless, I'm husbandless. I have been told by one Christian friend that essentially my life is a waste because of this. I tend to think not, but hey, that's just my opinion. :-)

pjangel

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Fujifilm XF 10-24mm f/4 R IOS

07/06/2008 03:23:12 PM · #994

Originally posted by Melethia:

If I remember correctly you are either currently/or previously a member of the US Armed Forces, You're life is far from a waste. Some people just don't get it and never will.

BAMartin

Apple iPhone 5

07/06/2008 04:39:56 PM · #995

Originally posted by Melethia:

Your life is so far from a waste! You have enriched my life by your wit and artistry. I am sure many others would agree that their lives are better for having you there.

A waste? oh please......

alpharich

Fujifilm X-S10

07/06/2008 04:44:29 PM · #996

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

[thumb]695822[/thumb]

at last some photos :)

Melethia

Canon EOS-80D

07/06/2008 05:03:38 PM · #997

The "waste" is in the Christian sense that I, as a female of the species, am here to further my kind by producing and raising qualified offspring. I do appreciate the appreciation of my occasionally off the wall humor, though. :-) And I'd post a picture, but you've all seen my cats already.

07/06/2008 05:43:56 PM · #998

Originally posted by dponlyme:

You're right, I have been very angry and I apologize for becoming uncorked.

I get that way when I get misquoted, or perceive having been, and I completely lost it with the comment about the sanctity of marriage.

I have been married to a wonderful woman for 25 years, I have an amazing daughter, and our family has been through more than most could imagine and come out the other side stronger for our trials.

To have that cheapened, or called into question made me see red.

Originally posted by dponlyme:

Let's try and return this to a more civil discourse. DP

Okay.

I talked to a wise friend of mine at church this morning, seeking her counsel, and that helped a bunch. She made suggestions as to how I could talk to you and try and understand, not necessarily agree with, but to at least engage without becoming completely exasperated.

Bearing in mind that her take on you is completely colored by my take on you, she still imparted some sage thoughts.

She suggested that I take into account that your perspective on the whole thing is going to remain completely different because you have completely different beliefs, nd that your set of values is a lot more concrete and black and white than mine.

My belief system remains much more open and available for input because I have not shut out the ever-changing creatures that we become over time.

You were talking about societal norms......I got the distinct impression that your point of view is as it was dictated a couple thousand years ago. That's okay with me as far as my own standard of having to respect your rights as I would have you respect mine.

I cannot live like that because this is 2008. So much of what was commonplace then is completely unacceptable today, at least for me, and I cannot accept the edicts and perspectives that cause people harm and would have them treated badly.

I'm talking about everything from slavery, the buying, selling, aned general abhorrent treatment of women, the class and race distinctions, and many more of the same things that you and I rarely even think about on a day to day basis.

One thing that I do that is radically different from the way that I was 35 years or so ago is that I am no longer able to simply accept that some of my friends are gay and that's okay. It's not enough in this evolved culture to be simply accepting; I feel that if I am to be worthy of my friends and family, I must stand up for their rights the same way that I would for women and people of other races and cultures.

Unfortunately, I have a certain amount of guilt for not having been attuned to the really abysmal way that my friends have been treated for so many years without my even realizing it.

Gays are discriminated against on so many levels it's shameful, and I wasn't really aware of it until I found my way to the church I belong to and had my eyes opened.

You know, it's funny, but there are people at my church whom I do not know whether they are gay or straight. What a powerful and warm feeling to have relationships based solely on the character of another rather than sexual orientation! I do know that they are wonderful, loving, honest, smart, funny, delightful people that I feel privileged to call my family. Isn't that something? There is the camaraderie and sense of family there that I get nowhere else for the most part.

I mention this because it's an amazing group where the age spans from infants to senior citizens, single, divorced, married, gay, straight, Republican, Catholic, Jew, Buddhist......you get the picture; and none of that matters because everyone who attends that church does so because they cannot stomach the treatment that they have received at the hands of others who would have them be something that doesn't sit well with them. Whether it be the limitations of societal law, religion, or any other glaring violation of basic human decency that's accepted societal practice, we have walked away from it all to pursue what we believe; that what we know in our faith to be good and right.

I walked in about 20 minutes early this morning, went into the sanctuary, put my camera, car keys, and the order of service down in the pew where I usually sit.......and walked out into the meeting hall where I proceeded to talk with other congregants 'til the service began. Yep, just put $1200 worth of camera and lens down and walked away from it without a second thought.

My point is that this church took me in, asked only that I be true to my search for my faith and spirituality, and that I support the other members in their right to same. We do not ask anything more of our members other than to support each other. Part of being a Unitarian Universalist is to try very hard to help deal with the ineguities of life, and as we are a welcoming congregation, our social action is very devoted to all aspects of gay rights.

Funny thing that......

The overwhelming majority of our GLBT justice initiative is.....ready?

Straight people.

The reason for that is that most of our gay friends are not looking for a place to champion for themselves, they are just looking for a place, and a family where they can be loved, cared for, and accepted for who they are as people. These members of our family simply want a place to worship and belong without prejudice.

I am deeply moved by the beauty and love that this congregation shows all of its members, and the way that they stand up and work for the betterment of society in their regard for the inherent worth and dignity of all human beings. Because of what I have learned there, I feel that I can make a difference as a straight man simply by standing up and saying that my gay friends are being discriminated against and I don't like it. And I'll vote in my community to change things, I'll stand by my friends between them and street preachers, and I get frustrated when people who don't know any better say things about homosexuality that shows fear and ignorance.

The thing that bothers me the most is that so many people go out of their way to speak out calling homosexuality immoral, indecent; they compare it to all forms of grievous behavior in their ignorance, and it really makes me nuts.

Homosexuality is not a choice, it's not a way of life, it's not a passing fancy, it just IS.....and many people are homosexual.

They are people.......they laugh, love, cry, have families, jobs, lives, hobbies, they're our friends, neighbors, and families. Why would we treat our friends, families, and neighbors badly, and not accord them the same rights, privileges, and respect that we want for ourselves?

I'm sorry if during any of my trips through this thread where I have lost my cool if I have done the same thing that I'm so vehemently against, but picture this if you will.....many gays people live with unrestrained hatred, anger, resentment, and disrespect as everyday occurrences. And they just endure it and move on with life.

That's not right.