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07/05/2008 07:04:06 AM · #926 |
Originally posted by dponlyme:
Whether or not you buy into the 'concept' doesn't much matter. There is right and there is wrong. |
Actually, it kinda does matter. If Person A doesn't believe in a god of any sort (or not the right god according to Person B), then Person A has a set of "rights/wrongs" that may be entirely different than Person B.
If Person A believes murder is good, is OK, is fine - well, our current society tends to differ regardless of religion (in most cases) and Person A is therefore subject to society's norms and rules. If Person A has a relationship with someone Person B's "rights/wrongs" say is wrong, that doesn't make it wrong for Person A.
I'm not a scholar of the Bible or any other religious text, but the Armed Forces Network is somewhat of a religious media outlet and the other day while shopping at the commissary, I heard something about someone who got in trouble for not completely smiting and murdering an entire people and their animals as God commanded (the guy getting chewed out had kept a couple of sheep to put on the BBQ). Hence, at some point in time, "murder is good" was the way to go?
Message edited by author 2008-07-05 07:14:53. |
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07/05/2008 07:17:57 AM · #927 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by dponlyme:
No, that is the warping by man of what God intended marriage to be. Read Song of Solomon. God intends for marriage to be loving. Because man warped it does not change God's intent. We were made in God's image in all respects and he intends for us to love one another wholly and for sex to be between a man in a woman who are married. |
So....I lived with my wife, monogamously and faithfully for five years prior to the 25 that we've been married.
I guess that'd make us fornicators, huh?
I'm not trying to give you a bad time but stringent adherence to writings thousands of years old and interpreted and recorded by men just isn't realistic on any level.
Yes, the teachings and concepts of many things in the Bible have merit, but as soon as you try that whole literal translation thing, we have problems. For one thing, there will always be cultural nuances that will get lost in translation. That is a fact! |
Having sex with the same gender is not a social nuance and some things in the Bible are literal such as do not fornicate and homosexuality is wrong along with stealing and murder and coveting. So yes it does make you a fornicator if you were having sex with your wife prior to marriage. It does not condemn you to hell necessarily anymore than my own premarital fornications condemns me to hell. I want to make this clear. Just because you are a nice guy and love your wife does not free you from sin. Let me ask you this: If you feel the teachings and concepts of many things in the Bible have merit on what do you base your judgement of merit? Is it what you have decided or do you base it on something else. Do you believe that Jesus was the only begotten son of God? If you do then wake up and realize that you don't make the rules of right and wrong. |
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07/05/2008 07:19:55 AM · #928 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by Mousie:
Also, I'm so, so, so tired of being caled a sinner. How dare people tell me I'm a sinner, when I don't even buy into the concept? I'm not going to hell, hell doesn't exist, and I live a moral, honest, upstanding life.
I am not a sinner, and living morally is not the opposite of sinning.
These attempts by the religious to call my worth into question without even knowing me are simply insulting, and incredibly presumptuous at that. It's the very definition of prejudice. |
Dude, as I've told many of my friends who by one twist of fate or another, be they gay, black, women, or some other facet of humanity that the masses act differently toward.........you have an advantage over me to a certain extent.
By your very makeup as a person, you will instantly see the lesser humans because of their treatment and perception of you.
All too often, I have to actually develop a relationship with them and then discover that they're the kind of inconsiderate, narrow-minded, judgemental people I don't want anything to do with in the first place.
For those who bear the brunt of judgementalism and discrimination, please remember that there are many of us who do not feel that way, and are in fact embarrassed for our fellow man,
Many of us have been awakened by some of the abhorrent treatment, and the insidious discrimination, to realize that after many years of quiet acceptance, love, and understanding on our part, we realize that is no longer good enough and we will stand up beside you for your inalienable rights as human beings.
Oh......one more thing. I wish I had been brought up in a household where my Mom had a same sex partner. Everything good about me was instilled in me from my mother, and I am to this day struggling with my relationship with my father. I know too many same sex couples who do not have the repressed and dysfunctional traditional background that encompassed my formative years. |
Why do you categorize me as a lesser human because I believe in God and the Bible? I don't consider you a lesser human. |
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07/05/2008 07:30:42 AM · #929 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
Originally posted by dponlyme:
Whether or not you buy into the 'concept' doesn't much matter. There is right and there is wrong. |
Actually, it kinda does matter. If Person A doesn't believe in a god of any sort (or not the right god according to Person B), then Person A has a set of "rights/wrongs" that may be entirely different than Person B.
If Person A believes murder is good, is OK, is fine - well, our current society tends to differ regardless of religion (in most cases) and Person A is therefore subject to society's norms and rules. If Person A has a relationship with someone Person B's "rights/wrongs" say is wrong, that doesn't make it wrong for Person A.
I'm not a scholar of the Bible or any other religious text, but the Armed Forces Network is somewhat of a religious media outlet and the other day while shopping at the commissary, I heard something about someone who got in trouble for not completely smiting and murdering an entire people and their animals as God commanded (the guy getting chewed out had kept a couple of sheep to put on the BBQ). Hence, at some point in time, "murder is good" was the way to go? |
I should have stated and if I didn't it was in error that it is my opinion that there is right and there is wrong. However if we follow your logic then majority rules... you seek to change societal norms and I oppose this change. It's really just that simple. I don't look down on you or think less of you or your worth or ascribe anything to you that you do not ascribe to yourself openly. You have your right to try and make that change and looks like at least the judges if not the population is on your side. We disagree on what is best because we are two different people coming from two completely different points of view. Judgement from my point of view is between you and God. If you do not believe in God then I think you are in grave error but I do not necessarily seek to change that point of view as I am sure you have been exposed to the gospel message and have made up your own mind. I respect your right to believe as you wish and vote as you wish but I merely wish the same courtesy without being called a lesser human by some. |
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07/05/2008 08:03:13 AM · #930 |
Originally posted by dponlyme:
Why do you categorize me as a lesser human because I believe in God and the Bible? I don't consider you a lesser human. |
I didn't say that on any level......as a matter of fact, I was VERY careful to state that the people *I* consider to be lesser would be those who judge, condemn, and discriminate against other human beings based on their beliefs and supposed edicts of laws and behaviors.
If you made that leap.....I can't help that......8>)
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07/05/2008 08:09:25 AM · #931 |
Originally posted by dponlyme:
No, that is the warping by man of what God intended marriage to be. Read Song of Solomon. God intends for marriage to be loving. Because man warped it does not change God's intent. We were made in God's image in all respects and he intends for us to love one another wholly and for sex to be between a man in a woman who are married. |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
So....I lived with my wife, monogamously and faithfully for five years prior to the 25 that we've been married.
I guess that'd make us fornicators, huh?
I'm not trying to give you a bad time but stringent adherence to writings thousands of years old and interpreted and recorded by men just isn't realistic on any level.
Yes, the teachings and concepts of many things in the Bible have merit, but as soon as you try that whole literal translation thing, we have problems. For one thing, there will always be cultural nuances that will get lost in translation. That is a fact! |
Originally posted by dponlyme:
Having sex with the same gender is not a social nuance and some things in the Bible are literal such as do not fornicate and homosexuality is wrong along with stealing and murder and coveting. So yes it does make you a fornicator if you were having sex with your wife prior to marriage. It does not condemn you to hell necessarily anymore than my own premarital fornications condemns me to hell. I want to make this clear. Just because you are a nice guy and love your wife does not free you from sin. Let me ask you this: If you feel the teachings and concepts of many things in the Bible have merit on what do you base your judgement of merit? Is it what you have decided or do you base it on something else. Do you believe that Jesus was the only begotten son of God? If you do then wake up and realize that you don't make the rules of right and wrong. |
I emboldened this sentence for effect.......you say some things in the Bible are literal.
Then you go on to call me out and ask on what I base my judgement of what has merit.
I have already stated, repeatedly, that I try to follow the guidance of God as I understand his signs for me on a daily basis.......that has either been ignored or not accepted. You question *MY* interpretation of what I feel is right based on my understanding of God's will for me, readily acknowledging that I *WILL* fall short, yet you speak as though *YOUR* interpretation is a given and the one way.
Do you see the problem with that?
So what's to be taken literally, and what's to be taken conceptually?
Do you have the list?
ETA: I am NOT trying to catch you out or give you a bad time; I am genuinely trying to have you see that I am completely in the dark as to what God's will is for me. I do the best I can from what I see as the path to be the best man I can and have that be as the kind of man that God would have me be.
But He doesn't send me e-mails, he doesn't stop by for a chat over coffee.......
The best that I can do is to try to do what I understand His will is.....and that means to be a loving, understanding, giving, and decent man. General, yes, but an exceedingly tough task for this mere mortal.
I know in my heart and soul with every fiber of my being that I am NOT to judge, nor condemn, any other person that I walk this path through life with.......
That makes it hard for me to be loving and accepting of the judgemental and condemning nature of some others.
But I'm working on it.....
Message edited by author 2008-07-05 08:30:06.
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07/05/2008 08:41:36 AM · #932 |
Originally posted by dponlyme:
Hey I am no hater and I want everyone to know that I do not hate homosexuals or want to see them murdered. That is ridiculous. I long for them to have a saving knowledge of God which is aided by the scriptures contained in the Holy Bible. I want that for everyone. |
Excuse me dponlyme, I do not believe you. It's quite obvious you do not like homosexuals, atheists, agnostics and anyone else who thinks your god and all other gods are a ruse to keep the weak minded in line.
You make me sick to my stomach.
Another fine quote:
Originally posted by dponlyme:
Why do you categorize me as a lesser human because I believe in God and the Bible? I don't consider you a lesser human. |
Riiiight. You don't consider us lesser humans? So what is it you consider us being then? Lost souls? Disenchanted? Godless? Go ahead, tell me what I am?
Message edited by author 2008-07-05 08:48:28. |
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07/05/2008 08:49:30 AM · #933 |
Originally posted by Jac:
Originally posted by dponlyme:
Hey I am no hater and I want everyone to know that I do not hate homosexuals or want to see them murdered. That is ridiculous. I long for them to have a saving knowledge of God which is aided by the scriptures contained in the Holy Bible. I want that for everyone. |
Excuse me dponlyme, I do not believe you. It's quite obvious you do not like homosexuals, atheists, agnostics and anyone else who thinks your god and all other gods are a ruse to keep the weak minded in line.
You make me sick to my stomach. |
It's a long, long stretch from someone thinking you are wrong to his hating you, friend. You may be "sickened" by dp's desire to see you "saved", but don't conflate that with some issue of whether or not he hates you, OK?
R.
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07/05/2008 08:53:10 AM · #934 |
Originally posted by Jac:
Riiiight. You don't consider us lesser humans? So what is it you consider us being then? Lost souls? Disenchanted? Godless? Go ahead, tell me what I am? |
Well, IF you have a soul (a religious concept, surely) then it is currently lost, right? "Disenchanted" doesn't have much meaning int he context of this discussion but, yes, you seem to be. "Godless"? By your own statements, yes; and defiantly so, I might add, since you are lashing out at the Godly among us.
Maybe tone it down a little? If you don't believe in God, then none of this should carry any weight with you at all surely?
R.
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07/05/2008 09:04:17 AM · #935 |
Originally posted by dponlyme:
... you seek to change societal norms and I oppose this change. It's really just that simple. |
Now that is a very sound, rational argument. I can live with that. :-) Some societal norms that have changed in the not so distant past also didn't have a majority, but I think in the end were for the better. The one that comes to mind is the ability for a person to marry someone of another race. Granted, there are those that still think that is "wrong" for whatever reason, but it least by making it NOT illegal, it allowed some to see that the world wouldn't come to an end just because some chose to marry outside of their race. |
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07/05/2008 09:14:06 AM · #936 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Maybe tone it down a little? If you don't believe in God, then none of this should carry any weight with you at all surely? |
There is a difficulty in becoming too dogmatic about anything, whether it's god-belief, atheism, belief in certain inherent "rights" etc. But dp and believers like him are necessarily dogmatic, allowing in many cases for an impressive circumvention of rationale, partly evidenced in his stance against gay marriage. Though I am not in favour of militancy, I can't help but sympathize with the tone of frustration coming from Jac, and others who feel they are watching the end of the Enlightenment happen before their very eyes. Or to put it less dramatically, I think one pushes as hard as one has been pushed.
Message edited by author 2008-07-05 09:24:06. |
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07/05/2008 09:20:28 AM · #937 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Maybe tone it down a little? If you don't believe in God, then none of this should carry any weight with you at all surely? |
Originally posted by Louis:
There is a difficulty in becoming too dogmatic about anything, whether it's god-belief, atheism, belief in certain inherent "rights" etc. But dp and believers like him are necessarily dogmatic, allowing in many cases for an impressive circumvention of rationale, partly evidenced in his stance against gay marriage. Though I am not in favour of militancy, I can't help but sympathize with the tone of frustration coming from those who feel they are watching the end of the Enlightenment happen before their very eyes. Or to put it less dramatically, I think one pushes as hard as one has been pushed. |
Thing is.....now the Enlightened Ones are now starting to get a taste of their own medicine. They can no longer just put to death or excommunicate anyone who doesn't share their beliefs. The onset of equal rights, freedom of speech and expression coupled with societal evolution and laws have now put them firmly in jeopardy.
Progress and free thinking is a bitch for them.
And they don't like it much.
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07/05/2008 09:22:44 AM · #938 |
Just to be clear... I was sympathizing with Jac's "militancy", or at least his brand of hot-headed atheism. ;-)
...and so I've edited to be clear.
Message edited by author 2008-07-05 09:24:18. |
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07/05/2008 09:25:41 AM · #939 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Jac:
Riiiight. You don't consider us lesser humans? So what is it you consider us being then? Lost souls? Disenchanted? Godless? Go ahead, tell me what I am? |
Well, IF you have a soul (a religious concept, surely) then it is currently lost, right? "Disenchanted" doesn't have much meaning int he context of this discussion but, yes, you seem to be. "Godless"? By your own statements, yes; and defiantly so, I might add, since you are lashing out at the Godly among us.
Maybe tone it down a little? If you don't believe in God, then none of this should carry any weight with you at all surely?
R. |
It's not that simple. I'm not defending my belief here, i'm trying to understand why dponlyme and David seem to think they are right. They spew the bible crap like we're supposed to be illuminated by it and taken aback.
I react to what I read. You may not like it but I hope you understand it's a response to what I feel is a load of crap, just as they feel what I believe is also a load of crap. The day I stop taking the subject of religion and human rights seriously is the day I will most probably die or hope to.
I'm sorry if I'm not as eloquent as some here are. I'm just a dumbass photographer, so what do I know? They didn't teach me to write a thesis on religion in photography school. So y'all are gonna have to keep up with my rough unpolished donkey dung for a while yet, heehaw!
The only way to take away my anti-religious sentiment is from my cold dead mind. ;\ |
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07/05/2008 09:26:49 AM · #940 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Just to be clear... I was sympathizing with Jac's "militancy", or at least his brand of hot-headed atheism. ;-)
...and so I've edited to be clear. |
And to be equally clear, I'm not "supporting" any sort of discrimination based on sexual preference, nor am I "supporting" any sort of hard-core proselytizing. My reaction was simply to Jac's statements that dp, by expressing his beliefs, is expressing "hate" for those who do not share them.
That kind of statement, for me, is where the problem is on both sides.
R.
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07/05/2008 09:35:32 AM · #941 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Just to be clear... I was sympathizing with Jac's "militancy", or at least his brand of hot-headed atheism. ;-)
...and so I've edited to be clear. |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
And to be equally clear, I'm not "supporting" any sort of discrimination based on sexual preference, nor am I "supporting" any sort of hard-core proselytizing. My reaction was simply to Jac's statements that dp, by expressing his beliefs, is expressing "hate" for those who do not share them.
That kind of statement, for me, is where the problem is on both sides.
R. |
As I see it.....8>) problems arise any time one person tries to force differing beliefs on another on the premise that theirs is right.
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07/05/2008 09:42:14 AM · #942 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
As I see it.....8>) problems arise any time one person tries to force differing beliefs on another on the premise that theirs is right. |
But here's the thing of it: in any interaction, or debate, you have no control over what the other party believes or how s/he expresses it. You only have control over how you react to it. Nobody can "force" their beliefs on you in a forum like this, but by countering extremism with extremism you escalate the battle to no purpose.
R.
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07/05/2008 09:46:55 AM · #943 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
As I see it.....8>) problems arise any time one person tries to force differing beliefs on another on the premise that theirs is right. |
But here's the thing of it: in any interaction, or debate, you have no control over what the other party believes or how s/he expresses it. You only have control over how you react to it. Nobody can "force" their beliefs on you in a forum like this, but by countering extremism with extremism you escalate the battle to no purpose. |
You're right, and elsewhere recently I've said that most people argue as though they are trying to win a convert to their position, which is a futile exercise. It should be enough to elucidate one's position based on evidence and reason and see how the opposing side reacts. But I don't intend for people not to express views passionately -- without rhetoric and insults of course. ;-) |
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07/05/2008 10:25:14 AM · #944 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
But here's the thing of it: in any interaction, or debate, you have no control over what the other party believes or how s/he expresses it. You only have control over how you react to it. Nobody can "force" their beliefs on you in a forum like this, but by countering extremism with extremism you escalate the battle to no purpose. |
I have been trying not to be extreme in my beliefs and response, but sometimes my passion for my beliefs overcomes my better judgement when my sensibilities are offenmded by what I perceive as discrimination and/or persecution.
That usually happens when I encounter rabid, close-minded extremism.
I will *ALWAYS* concede that I may be wrong or misguided in my beliefs.......unfortunately, most extremists/fundamentalists will not.
That rigid adherence to belief in the face of facts, logic, and reason is not conducive to intelligent conversation and discussion.
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07/05/2008 12:01:37 PM · #945 |
Originally posted by dponlyme:
... be free to lead an unencumbered life of liberty." That's selfish in my book. I'm sure there are other reasons one might choose not to have children but by and large I think this is meat of the group. The sad thing is that they don't know what they are missing. |
How about those who choose to forego the "pleasures" of parenthood so as to reduce the overpopulation which is making the Earth a health hazard for your children -- that's altruistic in my book ... |
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07/05/2008 12:10:37 PM · #946 |
Originally posted by dponlyme:
There is no accounting for the warping of what God intended marriage to be. |
Seems to me polygamous marriage was common practice in Biblical times -- how does that comport with your "one man-one woman" version?
In a civil society, you must be free to practice marriage according to your beliefs, but you must get over the idea that you can keep everyone else from having the same freedom to practice marriage according to theirs. The US Constitution does not allow the favoring of one religion's practices over another. If you require living in a Christian theocracy to feel comfortable, I suggest you move to one or start one -- someplace else. |
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07/05/2008 02:49:13 PM · #947 |
I'd like to address another insulting, specious argument I constantly have lobbed my way in these contexts:
An absence of faith is NOT a license to murder, yet murder is always bought up and positioned as the inevitable result of a non-god-based morality, as if Jesus's finger were the only thing keeping the dyke of morality waterproof.
Only someone who's morailty is based on unquestioning dogma and a fear of eternal damnation could believe that it does not come from within, having been imparted to you by society and environment, nature and nurture. I feel I was fortunate to be raised in a secular home with an almost opressive morality stamped into me at every opportunity since before I can even remember. Be honest. Do your best. Don't half-ass things. Fight for truth. Be frugal. Live openly. Respect others, but don't let them disrespect you. Don't hit. Pay attention to detail. Think. Be open to new information. Speak with candor. Take responsibility for your actions. Your rights stop when they take rights away from others. Treat people equally. Don't be a racist. Don't litter. I could go on indefinitely.
It serves me very, very well.
Where did my morailty come from? My parents, family, friends, community, and birthplace. I would posit that yours did too, and that's why you don't see little baby spontaneously popping up in (replace the strain of faith and physical location at will) as one might expect if morality were truly extra-human. The ONLY fundamental difference is that the people I learned my morality from did not use a book or gods to justify it. They just told me what was right and wrong, then held me responsible for my choices.
On the flip side... there's a preponderance of evidence that religion and faith actually produces the sorts of behaviors that it seeks, at least in its better moments, to proscribe. Endless murder has been justified by faith, in direct opposition to the tenents of so many religions. The existence of faith is often a license to murder.
Funny, that.
What I think this boils down to is an attempt by the faithful to make themselves feel special by dehumanizing everyone outside of their faith as amoral, out of control, murderous monsters, waiting in the wings to tear down their tower and replace it with anarchy. Just like they're always comparing gays to pedophiles and bestialists. If someone would like to propose another reason why these comparisons keeps happening, I'm all ears.
Personally, I like to think that I am responsible for my morality, and I'm very proud of this. I am it's steward. I can make it better, I can let it slide, but it is my effort to maintain, build up, and pass on what was imparted to me that makes the difference.
And I'm willing to bet my eternity on it.
Message edited by author 2008-07-05 14:50:13. |
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07/05/2008 03:33:29 PM · #948 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
I'd like to address another insulting, specious argument I constantly have lobbed my way in these contexts:
An absence of faith is NOT a license to murder, yet murder is always bought up and positioned as the inevitable result of a non-god-based morality, as if Jesus's finger were the only thing keeping the dyke of morality waterproof.
What I think this boils down to is an attempt by the faithful to make themselves feel special by dehumanizing everyone outside of their faith as amoral, out of control, murderous monsters, waiting in the wings to tear down their tower and replace it with anarchy. Just like they're always comparing gays to pedophiles and bestialists. If someone would like to propose another reason why these comparisons keeps happening, I'm all ears. |
Just call me Blue......I've been holding my breath for a loooooooooooong time waiting for said-same answers.
Originally posted by Mousie:
Personally, I like to think that I am responsible for my morality, and I'm very proud of this. I am it's steward. I can make it better, I can let it slide, but it is my effort to maintain, build up, and pass on what was imparted to me that makes the difference.
And I'm willing to bet my eternity on it. |
Hmm.....accountability and responsibility for your actions. What a concept.
And.....IMNSHO whether you'll be saved or not, is that a bad way to live on any level? |
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07/05/2008 04:05:09 PM · #949 |
I'm just glad I was given the chance to jump off the boat. I was a Christian once, and against homosexuals also. However as nice as some things on that path were or promised to be, that was not a life I could stomach any longer. So now I follow the direction I feel inside me, where ever I end up, it was because of who I was, not because of who someone else wanted me to be.
Message edited by author 2008-07-05 16:05:34. |
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07/05/2008 04:07:42 PM · #950 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
Personally, I like to think that I am responsible for my morality, and I'm very proud of this. I am it's steward. I can make it better, I can let it slide, but it is my effort to maintain, build up, and pass on what was imparted to me that makes the difference.
And I'm willing to bet my eternity on it. |
You remind me of a line by Mark Twain as quoted by Hal Holbrook, as he compared his standards of honesty with those of George Washington ...
"... I hold myself to a higher and grander standard -- George could not tell a lie; I can, but I won't." |
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