Honestly, what's the big deal about Gay Marriage?

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

07/04/2008 02:55:33 PM · #903

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Message edited by author 2008-07-04 17:29:42.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

07/04/2008 03:08:05 PM · #904

Originally posted by togtog:

I think you quoted the wrong person for the wrong reason. :)

Perhaps if it were structured like this ...?

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by David Ey:

Originally posted by Lev 20:13:

"If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death."
Best wishes to you all.

Except death to homosexuals?

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

07/04/2008 03:11:33 PM · #905

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Message edited by author 2008-07-04 17:29:31.

Louis

Nikon D800

07/04/2008 03:17:14 PM · #906

Originally posted by David Ey:

//www.bible.ca/s-homo=sin.htm

All this is evidence of is that the source for such bigotry is now irrelevant, and must be rubbished.

pjangel

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

07/04/2008 03:20:13 PM · #907

To the Bible Quoters...
I'm sure that you all follow these laws also... right???
None of you have had haircuts or men, shaved your beards. And I'm sure that non of you ever wear any type of clothing that has any kind of mixed material... cotton/polyester?

Leviticus 19:19
â��You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together.
Leviticus 19:27
You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard.

If you're going to follow the book of fiction known as the Bible, then follow all of it!

As per NikonJeb
I feel that the most rabid adherents of its supposed "True" meaning are the most likely to interpret it for their own agendas......and not in any way are these agendas loving, understanding, compassionate, or kind.

Agree with Jeb.

Mousie

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

07/04/2008 03:40:08 PM · #908

I will never, never understand how religious conservatives as a group can say they aren't being hateful when we can't dig two arguments deep into a debate without them quoting a bunch of stuff from the bible about how people like me should be put to death... no mincing words... people like me put to death... usually in the context of defining the basis of their belief system, which thereby dictates their interpretation of the issue. We just saw it. It's undeniable.

I mean, really.

I just don't get it!

I also don't get why they think the dictates of Christianity are any more meaningful to me than those of Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, or the guy selling crystals at the mystic bookshop. Why is it any more valid for me to favor one choice of religion over the others? And I certainly can't figure out why their religion should be allowed to determine the defintions of words I use which have a long and storied history, or set the limits on my freedom of expression, as long as I'm not infringing on their rights in turn. It kinda feels like conservatives would believe that a Christian citizen of the US should not be allowed to draw a picture of Muhammad because it insults Islam, even though I know they don't. I can't reconcile it.

It completely, absolutely boggles my mind.

Well, the positivity was good while it lasted.

Hey. Why don't we all stop debating easy theorheticals, on both sides of this issue. Stop depersonalizing it. Stop talking about theory and justification and rationale and start talking about personal action and response. Because that's what this all comes down to. Actions on the part of people who believe one thing or another and how they effect the people who disagree.

What kind of action does the language of each side lead to? What does it make you do? What does the language of the other side make you think they are going to do, and how do you respond?

Personally, for me, the language of social conservatives makes me feel like if we slide further towards their idea of a perfect world, there's a good chance I'll get rounded up and thrown in an oven or chopped up by machetes. I see 'cleansing' of varying sorts over and over in this world. It's almost as if this is part of the human condition. It's happening today. It's undeniable.

I don't think I'm being unfair when I worry that a belief system based on literature that says that people like me should be put to death could lead to just such a world, right on my doorstep. I thank my lucky stars I have my partner and soon to be husband at my side to support me when I stand up for what I believe in. The world is too big and scary to go it alone.

Message edited by author 2008-07-04 16:21:36.

07/04/2008 03:40:32 PM · #909

I have some issue taking moral guidance from a deity which tortures and destroys faithful people in order to win a bet against another deity. The book of Job to be specific about what I am referring to. On a bet with satan, god allows satan to destroy every comfort and every good thing in Job's life, from his home, to his health, to his family, cursing him with fevers and painful boils that prevented him from even sleeping. Just to prove to satan he will remain faithful.

Of course that is the literal meaning and as people will have it there are at least a dozen different interpretations of the story, however it is my opinion that if such a literal story can be seen so many different ways then the bibles views on homosexuality should be as well.

07/04/2008 05:27:36 PM · #910

Originally posted by David Ey:

Well, I don't know where you received the information of understanding of your God. I get mine from the Holy Bible. And according to my bible God clearly expects us to follow His teachings. Everyone who 'says' they believe will not automatically enter the kingdom of heaven. Some choose to only see the sweet side of God.

Perhaps if you were to read what I wrote, you might have noticed that what I said was that I am guided on a daily basis by evidence of his love and grace.

The fact that I still walk this earth and that I have the wife and daughter that I do are abundant gifts.......the woman who was my mother, the one who taught me all that I know that is decent and good, the gift that He gave me as a photographer....these are things that because of the signs I receive, I see his love and guidance.

I'm sorry, but your Bible holds no interest to me.....and your beliefs, and the judgement you pass down with it, holds no power over me, and if anything, it saddens me to see the bitter feelings that people thrust onto others in the name of the Bible, God, and Christianity.

I want no parts of that judgementalism, hate, fear and intimidation, and all the other misery committed in the name of God.

I don't believe any of that. My God is not a jealous, mean, spiteful, insensitive God.

Oh, and as to what's in the Bible? Written in its entirety by people. Taking anything from another person literally, and with your own spin on it is always questionable.

Originally posted by David Ey:

Best wishes to you all.

Riiiiiiiiight!

Here's where that human fallibility sneaks in on me.

I don't belive for one second that you mean that because I have gay friends whom I care about, admire, and respect.

That kind of takes me out of the group that you'd approve, doesn't it?

07/04/2008 07:21:13 PM · #911

Hey I am no hater and I want everyone to know that I do not hate homosexuals or want to see them murdered. That is ridiculous. I long for them to have a saving knowledge of God which is aided by the scriptures contained in the Holy Bible. I want that for everyone. I do not condone any sinful activities by anyone and it is quite clear according to the Bible that homosexuality falls into that category. In my past I have had homosexual friends (lost through time and circumstance) and I do not condemn them at all. I know that their sexual activities are sinful. Mine used to be but in a heterosexual way... no better, no worse. If anyone thinks he is not sinful or has not sinned then they are deluding themselves. I am not the judge of another but I certainly can be the judge of their actions and my own whether or not they are sinful. I love all people as best I can and that does not exclude homosexuals. I do not even feel the need to point out their error as I am sure they are aware of what they are doing even as I am aware when I commit sin. What I don't like about gay marriage is that it is an endorsement of sinful activity given in what I see to be a religious context. If there is no religious context then why can't civil unions for the purpose of fair treatment in regards to governmental and job benefits and such be enough? These would not have to have a sexual connotation either as marriage does. Marriage in my opinion is between a man and a woman with the end purpose so that the species can continue through offspring. There are of course exceptions to this such as a couple who is infertile or just plain selfish and deciding not to have children purposefully or maybe a lady beyond child bearing years marrying but the primary reason for marriage is to have children and for them to be raised in a stable unit known as a family. Homosexuals cannot ever reproduce in a monogamous way without outside help and thus in my opinion do not meet the definition of marriage as I know it. I concede that this is just my point of view and no one has to subscribe to it but I am a voter and I will vote my conscience when I can and vote for the representative that most closely holds my views and values. That is my right. I wish all of you well, I truly mean that. So much is done in the name of religion that does involve hatred and I do not wish to be lumped in with these. I would simply ask that you respect my views even as I respect yours and your right to vote your conscience.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

07/04/2008 07:54:01 PM · #912

Originally posted by dponlyme:

There are of course exceptions to this such as a couple who is infertile or just plain selfish and deciding not to have children purposefully

Why is deciding to make the commitment to another and not to have children selfish?

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

07/04/2008 08:01:12 PM · #913

Originally posted by dponlyme:

Marriage in my opinion is ...

Yes, according that other current thread everyone is entitled to an opinion ...

07/04/2008 10:25:35 PM · #914

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by dponlyme:
There are of course exceptions to this such as a couple who is infertile or just plain selfish and deciding not to have children purposefully

Why is deciding to make the commitment to another and not to have children selfish?

Again this is my opinion and it goes something like this... "I don't want to be burdened with taking care of a child, it's too much trouble. My career would suffer. I couldn't afford all the neat toys I want and be free to lead an unencumbered life of liberty." That's selfish in my book. I'm sure there are other reasons one might choose not to have children but by and large I think this is meat of the group. The sad thing is that they don't know what they are missing.

Olympus 7-14mm f/4.0 Zuiko Digital Zoom

07/04/2008 10:26:59 PM · #915

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by dponlyme:
Marriage in my opinion is ...

Yes, according that other current thread everyone is entitled to an opinion ...

Why thank you for allowing me one... that's mighty Christian of you.

one2one

Olympus E-5

07/04/2008 10:58:45 PM · #916

Originally posted by David Ey:

//www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-gaymarriage16-2008may16,0,6182317.story

"In 2000, 61% of California voters approved a ballot measure, Proposition 22, that said "only marriage between a man and a woman is valid and recognized in California."

Well, I said more or less. I guess we will see, if it stays on the ballot.

When people ask me what I am afraid of, my reply is as always; the majority. I fear it more than fear itself. They can change my life where as fear is only in my mind and cannot hurt me or change me.

That result is 8 years old, that's a very long time. People's views have changed since then and i'm sure Cali will become another state that respects the individual rather than religious doctrine.

dponlyme, your hypocrisy is stupendously out of touch with reality. You can't say you do not hate homosexuals and in the same sentence hope they see the light of your god, knowing that your god doesn't accept homosexuals in his house. You cannot sit on the fence and not take a stance forever, either you accept them as individuals or quit the crap about saving them or being shown the light or however you want to put it. What is it you fear dponlyme?

Message edited by author 2008-07-04 23:12:59.

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

07/04/2008 11:22:07 PM · #917

I'm not a history buff.

I seem to recall that marriage dated back to when fathers owned daughters and would sell them to the highest bidder or someone who had land. It was not a loving event in the least. It was a business contract nothing more or less. I also seem to remember the act of giving a ring is a carry down from the potential husband offering a dowry for his new bride. The pledge of "Love, Honor, and OBEY." is still part of many wedding vows for women. Over the years the act of marriage has brightened up a great deal and is now seen as a wonderful event representing the bonding of two peoples hearts, lives, and souls into one. That doesn't mean it always has been.

Am I wrong? If not, how can two gay men or women defile marriage when it is a custom representing the sale of one human to another? In fact, I've wondered, why would they want to be part of that custom at all.

Mousie

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

07/05/2008 12:50:44 AM · #918

Also, I'm so, so, so tired of being caled a sinner. How dare people tell me I'm a sinner, when I don't even buy into the concept? I'm not going to hell, hell doesn't exist, and I live a moral, honest, upstanding life.

I am not a sinner, and living morally is not the opposite of sinning.

These attempts by the religious to call my worth into question without even knowing me are simply insulting, and incredibly presumptuous at that. It's the very definition of prejudice.

07/05/2008 06:08:18 AM · #919

Originally posted by Jac:

Originally posted by David Ey:
//www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-gaymarriage16-2008may16,0,6182317.story

"In 2000, 61% of California voters approved a ballot measure, Proposition 22, that said "only marriage between a man and a woman is valid and recognized in California."

Well, I said more or less. I guess we will see, if it stays on the ballot.

When people ask me what I am afraid of, my reply is as always; the majority. I fear it more than fear itself. They can change my life where as fear is only in my mind and cannot hurt me or change me.

That result is 8 years old, that's a very long time. People's views have changed since then and i'm sure Cali will become another state that respects the individual rather than religious doctrine.

dponlyme, your hypocrisy is stupendously out of touch with reality. You can't say you do not hate homosexuals and in the same sentence hope they see the light of your god, knowing that your god doesn't accept homosexuals in his house. You cannot sit on the fence and not take a stance forever, either you accept them as individuals or quit the crap about saving them or being shown the light or however you want to put it. What is it you fear dponlyme?

I don't fear anything... why is it so hard for you to understand that I don't have to hate or condemn someone just because I don't agree with them? As far as God goes I am sure there are many homosexual Christians that recognize and accept the forgiveness that is given freely through the sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross for ALL of us. They are accepted by God because they believe in Jesus Christ. Those who consider themselves to be good decent people and God to be a barbarian who condemns people to hell are not accepted however. It is not God who condemns people to hell... It is their own disbelief or active and unrepentant rebellion against God. But I digress... I am neither sitting on a fence or sitting in fear. I merely recognize the truth. People are not in their totality what they do according to the flesh but there is another realm... the spiritual realm... the heart if you will where God will judge you according to what it contains. That is what we all should be scared of and accept his Grace that is freely given to those who believe. Sin is sin and that won't change but grace can abound more with faith in Jesus. Some have said that being a Christian is a license to sin but the truth is that all will sin: both the Christian and the non-Christian. The difference between the two mainly is that the Christians sin will be forgiven if they truly repent of the sin in their heart and accept God's grace.

07/05/2008 06:12:51 AM · #920

Originally posted by togtog:

There is no accounting for the warping of what God intended marriage to be.

07/05/2008 06:36:16 AM · #921

Originally posted by togtog:

Originally posted by dponlyme:

There is no accounting for the warping of what God intended marriage to be.

So......that sale of daughters thing is how God intended it as you see it?

Here's a little thought for you.....I subscribe to a service that sends me a daily meditation and it's scary how often it's timely. More than one poster has commented on my take on God, and this is just eerily accurate.

God is the great interpreter of one human personality to another. Each personality is so different. God alone understands perfectly the language of each and can interpret between the two. Here I find the miracles of change and the true interpretation of life.

07/05/2008 06:38:39 AM · #922

Originally posted by Mousie:

Whether or not you buy into the 'concept' doesn't much matter. There is right and there is wrong. By what standard do you determine that you lead a moral life? It seems that you have decided for yourself what is moral. What if I don't buy into the concept that murder is wrong... does that make it right? What if I don't buy into the concept that their even is wrong and right. Does that abolish it? Some feel it is moral to live the way they do that you wouldn't approve of: such as myself as all claim to know that I am hate monger and consider themselves able to judge my heart. I don't call your worth into question as you presuppose. I don't know you. I just know that homosexual behavior is sinful and not what God wants from you. I didn't single you out in any way or pre-judge you. If you practice homosexual behavior then that is a sin. That makes you a sinner but please let me point out that I am quite sure that you sin in many other ways as well. We all sin. Why is that point lost on everyone? WE ALL SIN AND ALL FALL SHORT OF THE MARK. I am a sinner. You are a sinner. We are all sinners. I am no more the judge of you than I am of myself. I cannot judge men but I can judge their actions. I don't know what goes on in the heart. You don't have to buy into the truth but the truth will not change because you won't believe it. That is my opinion.

07/05/2008 06:43:12 AM · #923

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by togtog:
I'm not a history buff.

I seem to recall that marriage dated back to when fathers owned daughters and would sell them to the highest bidder or someone who had land. It was not a loving event in the least. It was a business contract nothing more or less. I also seem to remember the act of giving a ring is a carry down from the potential husband offering a dowry for his new bride. The pledge of "Love, Honor, and OBEY." is still part of many wedding vows for women. Over the years the act of marriage has brightened up a great deal and is now seen as a wonderful event representing the bonding of two peoples hearts, lives, and souls into one. That doesn't mean it always has been.

Am I wrong? If not, how can two gay men or women defile marriage when it is a custom representing the sale of one human to another? In fact, I've wondered, why would they want to be part of that custom at all.

Originally posted by dponlyme:
There is no accounting for the warping of what God intended marriage to be.

So......that sale of daughters thing is how God intended it as you see it?

Here's a little thought for you.....I subscribe to a service that sends me a daily meditation and it's scary how often it's timely. More than one poster has commented on my take on God, and this is just eerily accurate.

God is the great interpreter of one human personality to another. Each personality is so different. God alone understands perfectly the language of each and can interpret between the two. Here I find the miracles of change and the true interpretation of life.

No, that is the warping by man of what God intended marriage to be. Read Song of Solomon. God intends for marriage to be loving. Because man warped it does not change God's intent. We were made in God's image in all respects and he intends for us to love one another wholly and for sex to be between a man in a woman who are married.

07/05/2008 06:49:49 AM · #924

Originally posted by Mousie:

Dude, as I've told many of my friends who by one twist of fate or another, be they gay, black, women, or some other facet of humanity that the masses act differently toward.........you have an advantage over me to a certain extent.

By your very makeup as a person, you will instantly see the lesser humans because of their treatment and perception of you.

All too often, I have to actually develop a relationship with them and then discover that they're the kind of inconsiderate, narrow-minded, judgemental people I don't want anything to do with in the first place.

For those who bear the brunt of judgementalism and discrimination, please remember that there are many of us who do not feel that way, and are in fact embarrassed for our fellow man,

Many of us have been awakened by some of the abhorrent treatment, and the insidious discrimination, to realize that after many years of quiet acceptance, love, and understanding on our part, we realize that is no longer good enough and we will stand up beside you for your inalienable rights as human beings.

Oh......one more thing. I wish I had been brought up in a household where my Mom had a same sex partner. Everything good about me was instilled in me from my mother, and I am to this day struggling with my relationship with my father. I know too many same sex couples who do not have the repressed and dysfunctional traditional background that encompassed my formative years.