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07/03/2008 09:02:48 PM · #876 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
Here's one "narrow-minded,homophobic bad apple" checking in.....but that does not make me clueless nor ignorant according to seventy percent of the voters in California. (more or less) |
When one makes generalized statements of this ilk, it is customary to post a link to the statistics one is making reference to.
Ray |
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07/03/2008 09:56:12 PM · #877 |
//www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-gaymarriage16-2008may16,0,6182317.story
"In 2000, 61% of California voters approved a ballot measure, Proposition 22, that said "only marriage between a man and a woman is valid and recognized in California."
Well, I said more or less. I guess we will see, if it stays on the ballot. |
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07/03/2008 10:16:56 PM · #878 |
| Being in the majority automatically confers wisdom? Wow -- what a breakthough in educational theory! |
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07/03/2008 10:18:05 PM · #879 |
Did I Say That? Where the hell are you coming from?
Message edited by author 2008-07-03 22:18:51. |
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07/03/2008 10:20:49 PM · #880 |
Your statistics would seem to differ substantially from those found here ...Field Poll where this rather telling comment can be found: â....And in California, people are beginning to understand that. A Field poll revealed that, for the first time since the poll began in 1977, a majority of Californians now support marriage for gay and lesbian couples,â
Ray
Message edited by author 2008-07-03 22:23:50. |
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07/03/2008 10:22:50 PM · #881 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
Did I Say That? Where the hell are you coming from? |
... so then you would agree that it doesn't constitute wisdom??? |
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07/03/2008 10:23:34 PM · #882 |
Ya suppose that poll was taken in a queer bar?
Message edited by author 2008-07-03 22:26:23. |
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07/03/2008 10:24:59 PM · #883 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by David Ey:
Did I Say That? Where the hell are you coming from? |
... so then you would agree that it doesn't constitute wisdom??? |
I would say it has no bearing on constituting wisdom. |
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07/03/2008 10:30:04 PM · #884 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
Ya suppose that pole was taken in a queer bar? |
... I suppose that when one has no valid point of contention left, the only recourse available is to attack the source of the information being provided.
Rather sad that most of your arguments tend to end that way, as it seemingly demonstrates your inability to discuss issues in a rational manner.
Ray
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07/03/2008 10:34:30 PM · #885 |
Go back and read your comment to me and see if I o0nly replied in like manner.
"... so then you would agree that it doesn't constitute wisdom???" |
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07/03/2008 10:40:59 PM · #886 |
Ya know.....you chimed in with an intentionally provocative statement and then you wonder why you're getting railed.
And now you're trying to fly righteous indignation?
That's just funny!
You even stated that you were homophobic.
Why?
And I have frequented peculiar bars myself.........and they were populated with straight people.
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07/03/2008 10:55:11 PM · #887 |
Originally posted by BAMartin:
I guess I am not completely surprised by the support that you are both receiving from your DPC family. There are a few bad apples here, but they are far outnumbered by people who care more about the photos you take than the person you want to spend the rest of your life with (This is what I keep telling myself, I hope it is a self fulfilling prophecy). |
And just as things are going well and we are having a nice discussion we get a heckler... such is life!! |
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07/03/2008 10:56:46 PM · #888 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
Ya suppose that poll was taken in a queer bar? |
What an ugly person you are. |
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07/03/2008 11:39:23 PM · #889 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
Did I Say That? Where the hell are you coming from? |
Here ...
Originally posted by David Ey:
.....but that does not make me clueless nor ignorant according to seventy percent of the voters in California. (more or less) |
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07/04/2008 02:14:13 AM · #890 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
I'm going to have one on October 17. I'll be legally marrying my same sex partner of 15 years. Both of our families are thrilled. They can't wait!
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Crongrats i'm hopefully going to be planning my wedding soon with my partner of 8yrs but sadly i don't think my family will be as happy as yours :( His on the other hand would be very happy for us both, they are like my family now. Please lets see some photos.
and Pjangel congrats to you as well! (lacking photos here as well :) )
And finally to the jerk who is stirring shit up - this world is crappy enough and if two people can find love and happiness why can't you just be happy for them? What effect does it have on you? like my mum says if you can't think of anything nice to say don't say anything at all - just wish she would take her own advice ;) |
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07/04/2008 04:17:51 AM · #891 |
Well hey all of you getting married shouldnt find it too hard to find a photographer or two or 90 on here.
I am so happy for you all.
Alph, sorry to hear about your family, but you know what, you will start your own family with your partner, he will be your family, eveyone else is just an extention to your family. It is too bad that you family will miss out on a wonderfull relationship and the joy you are going to have for the rest of your life.
SO people, I want to see wedding photos!!!!! so I can ohh and aww over them, don't tell anyone, but they make me cry somtimes seeing how happy everyone is!!! |
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07/04/2008 04:18:16 AM · #892 |
| I don't know why I got brought back into this conversation on the previous page but I am here now so I might as well chime in once again. I am not homophobic nor am I for making homosexuals second class citizens. I don't however agree that the unions of homosexuals is marriage no matter what they want to call it or the state for that matter. What's in a word though... I wish everyone happiness but I cannot condone sinful lifestyles that are based on unnatural affections. From my point of view it is nothing to be celebrated any more than I should celebrate adultery or heterosexual fornication. The fact that so many heterosexual families are dysfunctional is a direct result of our society relaxing it's formerly held views of right and wrong in my opinion and is not indicative of the rightness or wrongness of the institution of marriage as it pertains to homosexuals. |
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07/04/2008 04:46:32 AM · #893 |
Originally posted by dponlyme:
I don't know why I got brought back into this conversation on the previous page but I am here now so I might as well chime in once again. I am not homophobic nor am I for making homosexuals second class citizens. I don't however agree that the unions of homosexuals is marriage no matter what they want to call it or the state for that matter. What's in a word though... I wish everyone happiness but I cannot condone sinful lifestyles that are based on unnatural affections. From my point of view it is nothing to be celebrated any more than I should celebrate adultery or heterosexual fornication. The fact that so many heterosexual families are dysfunctional is a direct result of our society relaxing it's formerly held views of right and wrong in my opinion and is not indicative of the rightness or wrongness of the institution of marriage as it pertains to homosexuals. |
Very Christian of you :)
Something is a bit funny in your head if you think spreading such hatred makes you a better person lol |
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07/04/2008 05:18:18 AM · #894 |
Originally posted by alpharich:
Very Christian of you :)
Something is a bit funny in your head if you think spreading such hatred makes you a better person lol |
Hatred.... uh excuse me... why is it that because I don't agree that someone's lifestyle is a moral one am I all of a sudden spewing hatred? That's the problem with a lot of the leftist type people. They want to ascribe hard feelings to the stand that homosexuality is not moral. I have no hard feelings (such as hatred) for homosexuality or homosexuals. They do not threaten me, my way of life, or have any effect on my life any more than adulterer's, heterosexual fornicators, or any other immoral lifestyle. It is just the fact that they wish homosexuality to be accepted as moral lifestyle with which I disagree. No, hatred is not the case here. As far as a better person... I am no better than the next guy and neither are you but unlike you I don't attack those who don't agree with me as spewing hatred but then again maybe you are... and yes it is very Christian of me... thank you for that compliment.
I'll edit this to also say that two of my best friends throughout my life have been gay people and I did not hate them believe it or not. I also did not condone their lifestyle anymore than I condoned another friends fornication filled lifestyle. They did not condone some of the things I do... in short if people can't realize that not everyone is going to agree with their choices in life then it would be hard to have any friends. I once asked one of my gay friends how he reconciled being Christian and gay and he told me and I quote "I am a sinner" and I said "me too". Don't talk to me about hatred until you can realize that hatred you ascribe to me flows so freely through your words of misunderstanding. Good day.
Message edited by author 2008-07-04 05:27:06. |
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07/04/2008 07:05:58 AM · #895 |
| I did not see any spewing hatred at all in his post and feel that you where out of line even with the smiley face =) |
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07/04/2008 08:18:41 AM · #896 |
Originally posted by dponlyme:
I don't know why I got brought back into this conversation on the previous page but I am here now so I might as well chime in once again. I am not homophobic nor am I for making homosexuals second class citizens. I don't however agree that the unions of homosexuals is marriage no matter what they want to call it or the state for that matter. What's in a word though... I wish everyone happiness but I cannot condone sinful lifestyles that are based on unnatural affections. From my point of view it is nothing to be celebrated any more than I should celebrate adultery or heterosexual fornication. The fact that so many heterosexual families are dysfunctional is a direct result of our society relaxing it's formerly held views of right and wrong in my opinion and is not indicative of the rightness or wrongness of the institution of marriage as it pertains to homosexuals. |
There are a couple of glaring flaws in your whole precept here.
I respect your stating that you don't agree with others' beliefs on marriage and morality, but then you turn around and liken being gay to adultery and fornication.
Adultery and fornication are clear cut choices, homosexuality is not.
I have yet to hear how any of the people who hold the lack of morality concept can reconcile this glaring difference.
Homosexuality is not a choice; you cannot catch it, and it's not a morality issue on any level.
Just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong.
And before you go spouting your litany of biblical references, let me say this....
MY God, the compassionate, loving, omnipotent God of my understanding would have me be a loving, accepting, compassionate person who tries to love and be understanding of people who would judge and deprive my gay brethren just because of who they are.
I don't like that much, but I try.
Let's keep the judgement and designation of immorality in the hands of God where it belongs and remember that we're supposed to be loving, accepting, and understanding of our fellow man.......and that although their ways may differ, that doesn't make them wrong.
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07/04/2008 12:18:52 PM · #897 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by dponlyme:
I don't know why I got brought back into this conversation on the previous page but I am here now so I might as well chime in once again. I am not homophobic nor am I for making homosexuals second class citizens. I don't however agree that the unions of homosexuals is marriage no matter what they want to call it or the state for that matter. What's in a word though... I wish everyone happiness but I cannot condone sinful lifestyles that are based on unnatural affections. From my point of view it is nothing to be celebrated any more than I should celebrate adultery or heterosexual fornication. The fact that so many heterosexual families are dysfunctional is a direct result of our society relaxing it's formerly held views of right and wrong in my opinion and is not indicative of the rightness or wrongness of the institution of marriage as it pertains to homosexuals. |
There are a couple of glaring flaws in your whole precept here.
I respect your stating that you don't agree with others' beliefs on marriage and morality, but then you turn around and liken being gay to adultery and fornication.
Adultery and fornication are clear cut choices, homosexuality is not.
I have yet to hear how any of the people who hold the lack of morality concept can reconcile this glaring difference.
Homosexuality is not a choice; you cannot catch it, and it's not a morality issue on any level.
Just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong.
And before you go spouting your litany of biblical references, let me say this....
MY God, the compassionate, loving, omnipotent God of my understanding would have me be a loving, accepting, compassionate person who tries to love and be understanding of people who would judge and deprive my gay brethren just because of who they are.
I don't like that much, but I try.
Let's keep the judgement and designation of immorality in the hands of God where it belongs and remember that we're supposed to be loving, accepting, and understanding of our fellow man.......and that although their ways may differ, that doesn't make them wrong. |
I fully respect your point of view. We disagree and the one true God would have me be understanding and I am. I understand that people are driven by their lusts to do things which are not right. It is really just a matter of whether we choose to let those lusts confine us to a life of immorality or not. It has often been said and I would agree that some men are not suited to only one mate and cannot stop themselves from adultery... they apparently were born that way but it makes their sin no less grievous. With the help of God and the Holy spirit they could possibly overcome their sins but I am not posting in an attempt to convert anyone. I am simply stating that I do not believe the homosexual lifestyle to be a moral one as defined by God and not by my own wisdom. I won't quote a bunch of Bible verses as I'm quite sure we all know what the Bible says about homosexuality, and adultery, and fornication and bestiality, and stealing, coveting, bearing false witness and on and on. I believe the Bible and I believe God. I believe we are all sinners and I am no better than another for that fact but I will not condone that which the one true God does not. It's that simple. You seem to have a god that you have made up in your head that agrees with what you think is fair and right. What do you base your god of understanding on??? |
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07/04/2008 12:59:07 PM · #898 |
Originally posted by dponlyme:
I won't quote a bunch of Bible verses as I'm quite sure we all know what the Bible says about homosexuality, and adultery, and fornication and bestiality, and stealing, coveting, bearing false witness and on and on. |
Do you also subscribe to all the punishments prescribed for such offenses? I have a feeling quite a few of them would receive a dim review from the Supreme Court ... |
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07/04/2008 01:29:49 PM · #899 |
Originally posted by dponlyme:
I fully respect your point of view. We disagree and the one true God would have me be understanding and I am. I understand that people are driven by their lusts to do things which are not right. It is really just a matter of whether we choose to let those lusts confine us to a life of immorality or not. It has often been said and I would agree that some men are not suited to only one mate and cannot stop themselves from adultery... they apparently were born that way but it makes their sin no less grievous. With the help of God and the Holy spirit they could possibly overcome their sins but I am not posting in an attempt to convert anyone. I am simply stating that I do not believe the homosexual lifestyle to be a moral one as defined by God and not by my own wisdom. I won't quote a bunch of Bible verses as I'm quite sure we all know what the Bible says about homosexuality, and adultery, and fornication and bestiality, and stealing, coveting, bearing false witness and on and on. I believe the Bible and I believe God. I believe we are all sinners and I am no better than another for that fact but I will not condone that which the one true God does not. It's that simple. You seem to have a god that you have made up in your head that agrees with what you think is fair and right. What do you base your god of understanding on??? |
Well.....this is where we'll really have to accept that we differ if we're going to discuss this.
You use the phrase "one true God".
The God of my understanding, made up if you will, will always be different than yours simply because mine doesn't have me tell people they're wrong based no *MY* perception and understanding of who He is.
God to me, teaches me, guides me, and shows me how to live based on my relationship with Him, and that doesn't involve me telling you how to be. It involves me trying to understand why you think the way you do, understanding and accepting that, and coexisting peacefully as brothers, but NOT telling you you're wrong regardless of whether or not I agree.
As a fallible human, that's an extraordinarily difficult task when I hear something that seems so senseless, and cruel, that it offends my sensibilities. The only way that homosexuality can be immoral is if it's a choice as I can tell by your own definition. Saying that it's okay to be a homosexual, but immoral to act on it neither makes sense to me, nor can be reconciled on any level. Yet that seems to be what I get from your view.
Homosexuality is not a choice, it cannot be caught or cured, and certainly nobody wakes up one day and says, "I think I'll start sleeping with members of my own gender now instead of the opposite. Who wants the kind of grief that supposedly moral people rain down on them because of their sexual orientation?
As far as what the Bible says.......far be it from me to throw in my two cents about what the most oft-misquoted and selectively interpreted text in the entire world actually says. I feel that the most rabid adherents of its supposed "True" meaning are the most likely to interpret it for their own agendas......and not in any way are these agendas loving, understanding, compassionate, or kind.
From what I've seen and heard over the years (53), there certainly are an awful lot of inconsistencies from one version and person to the next.
I don't share your opinion on any level that we are all sinners.......that's an interpretation I find abhorrent and ridiculous.
Have I made up my God in my head? Maybe......but I know that I see God's hand, and His grace in my life, in spite of my best efforts and choices of my own free will, and I do my best to go with His guidance as I interpret His will for me. Am I wrong? I don't know, I do fall short a lot....are you wrong? Far be it from me to figure out what God has in mind for you.....and it's not my place to interpret that, either.
But I really get my back up when some supposed guardian of my morality tries to shove his version, and his morality down my throat and claims that his way is "The One True Way".
I *know* that God would never discriminate against my fellow man because of his sexual orientation......and I will stand up for that belierf if I see someone being persecuted for it and I can help because of my being put in the position to do so.
So I pose to you this.....what if you're wrong? Do you feel that your behavior and treatment of your fellow man is enough to reconcile your life with the God of my understanding?
See, that's faith as I understand it. I receive comfort, solace, and grace because of the way I try to live......I can accept that I may be worng. But.....if there is a judgement day, I can look that judge in the eye and state that I did my best to be a good and decent man who did his best to live right amongst his fellow man, brothers of all stripes.
That means that I have gay friends whom I love, trust, respect, admire, seek counsel of, work and play with, and feel honored to have them as friends and family.
Can you say the same?
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07/04/2008 01:38:25 PM · #900 |
Jeb...
Your post gave me goosebumps, how much better the world would be if more people had the belief system that you adhere to. Thank You for being the person that you are!
Penny |
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