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Tokina AF 12-24mm f/4.0 AT-X Pro DX

06/17/2008 09:14:22 PM · #151

Originally posted by milo655321:

Originally posted by LoudDog:

Originally posted by milo655321:
Iâ��m also having difficulty finding where anyone made the specific argument to which youâ��re referring. (Though, admittedly, Iâ��m not looking particularly hard.) Could you point out where it is?

With a little effort I think you can do it!

Sorry. You made the claim. The burden of evidence is on you.

I'm not a government program giving out hand outs. If you want to know what I'm refering to you'll have to read the thread. I know it's a lot of work, but I really think you can do it.

Edit to add

:)

Message edited by author 2008-06-17 21:14:51.

milo655321

Nikon D70

06/17/2008 09:37:22 PM · #152

Originally posted by LoudDog:

So, in other words, you've taken an action which you can't support and are now trying to shift responsibility.

NeoCon! :P

RayEthier

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

06/17/2008 09:52:00 PM · #153

Originally posted by LoudDog:

I love this argument. The only difference between the CEO of a major company and the guy that pumps his gas is luck. Level of effort, taking the tough choices and sacrifices had nothing to do with it. All just dumb luck.

I truly don't believe that anyone is advocating what you are suggesting here. Rather, what is being proposed is that luck can and does affect everyone's life and that Coronamv should be very thankful that to date he has not had the misfortune of experiencing any major setbacks... those things that can and do happen to people and that are totally beyond their control.

Ray

06/17/2008 09:58:48 PM · #154

Originally posted by milo655321:

Originally posted by LoudDog:
I'm not a government program giving out hand outs. If you want to know what I'm refering to you'll have to read the thread. I know it's a lot of work, but I really think you can do it.

Edit to add

:)

So, in other words, you've taken an action which you can't support and are now trying to shift responsibility.

NeoCon! :P

Can't read the thread for themself, need somone to tell them what to think!

LIBERAL! :)

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

06/17/2008 10:23:00 PM · #155

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by LoudDog:
I love this argument. The only difference between the CEO of a major company and the guy that pumps his gas is luck. Level of effort, taking the tough choices and sacrifices had nothing to do with it. All just dumb luck.

I truly don't believe that anyone is advocating what you are suggesting here. Rather, what is being proposed is that luck can and does affect everyone's life and that Coronamv should be very thankful that to date he has not had the misfortune of experiencing any major setbacks... those things that can and do happen to people and that are totally beyond their control.

Ray

If you read back, myself and Coronamv were simply trying to state that ones success or failure depends greatly on their own efforts and actions, yet we were both met with stiff opposition turned into attacks that insisted that it was more fortunate then effort.

Maybe some people have coasted through life and were fortunate enough to end up on top, but for me it's been a struggle, so I take offense to someone considering I'm fortunate.

Gordon

RIM BlackBerry Curve

Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM

06/17/2008 11:02:48 PM · #156

Originally posted by coronamv:

What is your sorce on this? Or is this just Imagined as a possibility? PLease seriously No more unsupported facts.

more unsupported facts

RayEthier

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

06/18/2008 10:34:42 AM · #157

Originally posted by LoudDog:

Maybe some people have coasted through life and were fortunate enough to end up on top, but for me it's been a struggle, so I take offense to someone considering I'm fortunate.

I have no doubt that you have struggle to achieve your goals, but you shouldn't take offense to anyone saying you are fortunate.

Having good fortune does not imply that you sat idly by and became a success through sheer happenstance. Rather, the inference to be made here is that you were fortunate that you were not faced with some catastrophic event that could have negatively impacted on your aspirations.

Believers in a higher authority often say; " There but for the grace of God go I", or something of that ilk... and that is what I am specifically alluding to. Some of us are luckier than others in that life dealt us some better cards.

Ray

06/18/2008 10:45:48 AM · #158

Originally posted by RayEthier:

[quote=LoudDog] Maybe some people have coasted through life and were fortunate enough to end up on top, but for me it's been a struggle, so I take offense to someone considering I'm fortunate.

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Exactly......taken as a given, look at the story of Job.

His lot was not due to lack of effort.

That's the thing, you can work your tail off, but if the circumstances, fate, God, whatever, do not work in your favor, you are not going to have a good time at it.

I have also known people who do seem to lead a charmed existence and things just work out well for them......regardless of how much effort they put forth.

06/18/2008 11:09:32 AM · #159

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

I have also known people who do seem to lead a charmed existence and things just work out well for them......regardless of how much effort they put forth.

This is probably what irks me so much on this topic as I've had several people tell me that "things always work out for you" and "you're so lucky" quite often in my life. Things have worked out for me because I've always done what I need to do to make sure it works out! I left a girlfriend once because she thought my life was so easy.

True, i'm very fortunate I have not contracted some unpreventable disease or have been injured in any major way. But I didn't become a parent at 16 because I was safe. I didn't drop out of school because i wanted to make something of myself. I didn't do drugs because I didn't want to harm myself. I worked my way through college getting about 4 hours sleep a night for 5 years because I wanted to get a good job and didn't want to rack up a load of debt. i got an apartment and a car i could afford rather then something fancy i'd have to struggle to pay for, I'm healthy because I eat healty and work out regularly... and every step of the way I've put my all into what ever I do.

I see people every day that have made bad choices, take the easy way out or just don't try very hard. I'm not in a better place then them just because I'm fortunate.

06/18/2008 12:45:50 PM · #160

Robert Heinlein expresses it well, to my way of thinking:

"There is no such thing as luck. There is only adequate or inadequate preparation to cope with a statistical universe."

06/18/2008 01:09:52 PM · #161

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

I have also known people who do seem to lead a charmed existence and things just work out well for them......regardless of how much effort they put forth.

Originally posted by LoudDog:

This is probably what irks me so much on this topic as I've had several people tell me that "things always work out for you" and "you're so lucky" quite often in my life.

Maybe there's some basis to it if it's an observation that several people have made. Could be you're not the best judge of your fortune if you've been blessed.

Originally posted by LoudDog:

Things have worked out for me because I've always done what I need to do to make sure it works out!

And if you choose to believe that you have total control over your destiny, you go right ahead.

Just don't be surprised when you see things differently if someone blows a stop sign, trashes your car, you get hurt, and all of a sudden you realize that life hangs by a thread at any given moment. If you think that you can prepare for any uncontrollable circumstance, you are sadly mistaken.

Originally posted by LoudDog:

I left a girlfriend once because she thought my life was so easy.
That seems kind of silly to me.

[quote=LoudDog]True, i'm very fortunate I have not contracted some unpreventable disease or have been injured in any major way. But I didn't become a parent at 16 because I was safe. I didn't drop out of school because i wanted to make something of myself. I didn't do drugs because I didn't want to harm myself. I worked my way through college getting about 4 hours sleep a night for 5 years because I wanted to get a good job and didn't want to rack up a load of debt. i got an apartment and a car i could afford rather then something fancy i'd have to struggle to pay for, I'm healthy because I eat healty and work out regularly... and every step of the way I've put my all into what ever I do.

I admire your optimism, and hope that your naivete doesn't cause you trouble at any point in your life. It's amazing, and an true example of your good fortune that nothing bad, something completely outside your control, has ever happened to you.

Originally posted by LoudDog:

I see people every day that have made bad choices, take the easy way out or just don't try very hard. I'm not in a better place then them just because I'm fortunate.

So have I.

And in many cases, they reap what they sow.

I have also had bad experiences, and have known people who have, that have nothing whatsoever to do with any choices or efforts that have been made.

Just because you have had no experience like this doean't mean it doesn't happen.

People get killed in car crashes, hit by lightning, contract cancer, lose a house to a fire from an adjacent structure, have pens run out of ink......and gasp.....it happens every day, to many people......everywhere.

06/18/2008 01:19:54 PM · #162

Originally posted by LoudDog:

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by LoudDog:
I love this argument. The only difference between the CEO of a major company and the guy that pumps his gas is luck. Level of effort, taking the tough choices and sacrifices had nothing to do with it. All just dumb luck.

I truly don't believe that anyone is advocating what you are suggesting here. Rather, what is being proposed is that luck can and does affect everyone's life and that Coronamv should be very thankful that to date he has not had the misfortune of experiencing any major setbacks... those things that can and do happen to people and that are totally beyond their control.

Ray

If you read back, myself and Coronamv were simply trying to state that ones success or failure depends greatly on their own efforts and actions, yet we were both met with stiff opposition turned into attacks that insisted that it was more fortunate then effort.

Maybe some people have coasted through life and were fortunate enough to end up on top, but for me it's been a struggle, so I take offense to someone considering I'm fortunate.

Your success may depend to some degree on your efforts, but not entirely. You can work hard, stay healthy, live right and still get killed or maimed in an event that is totally out of your control. Unless, of course, you're claiming to be an all powerful deity that can control such things. The existence of such entities is the subject of much debate, here on DPC and elsewhere, and little or no credible evidence exists in favor of there being such an entity, but that's another discussion completely.

06/18/2008 02:15:34 PM · #163

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Just don't be surprised when you see things differently if someone blows a stop sign, trashes your car, you get hurt, and all of a sudden you realize that life hangs by a thread at any given moment. If you think that you can prepare for any uncontrollable circumstance, you are sadly mistaken.

While I wouldn't argue that you CAN prepare for ANY uncontrollable circumstance, I would argue that the scenario you paint SHOULD be anticipated and prepared for - i.e.

1) If you are driving, a) you should drive defensively, anticipating that someone WILL run an intersecting stop sign / red light unless and until you observe positive signs that he/she intends to observe same b) you should not engage in distracting activities, such as drinking, reading, using a cell phone, applying makeup, etc. and c) you should NOT allow horseplay in the vehicle such that it will be a distraction. If you are a passenger, you should help the driver to adhere to those defensive techniques.

2) Before purchasing an automobile, you should check its safety ratings ( e.g. IIHS and/or NTHSA ). You should NOT ride in an unsafe automobile.

3) As far as it is possible, you should only ride in automobiles equipped with 3-point seat belts and airbags - and use the seat belt as it was intended for use. You should NOT put heavy items unsecured in a seat behind you - and that includes children; you should not put ANY items on the rear window deck, nor atop the dashboard in front of you.

4) You should carry a METAL ID tag upon your person, indicating your name, address, and blood type. If you have medicinal allergies, they should be noted. You should prepare in advance for the unlikely event that you are involved in an accident that leaves you incapacitated, and in which usual documentation is either unavailable or destroyed. Whether you live or die could depend on how quickly your blood type or next of kin can be determined.

5) To the best of your ability, you should maintain Life, Health, and Long-term care insurance policies.

All of the above may not PREVENT your being disabled or killed in an automobile accident, but they sure will have an effect on the outcome - if not for YOU, then at least for those who will have to deal with the results.

ETA: And if you are NOT T-boned by someone running a stop sign, or are NOT killed or maimed because your airbag deployed, or DO receive life-saving care in the trauma center because you received blood in time, or do NOT suffer financial tragedy because you have long-term care insurance, then you can laugh when people tell you how "fortunate" you are.

Message edited by author 2008-06-18 14:20:51.

06/18/2008 02:21:11 PM · #164

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

While I wouldn't argue that you CAN prepare for ANY uncontrollable circumstance, I would argue that the scenario you paint SHOULD be anticipated and prepared for - i.e.

Originally posted by RonB:

1) If you are driving, a) you should drive defensively, anticipating that someone WILL run an intersecting stop sign / red light unless and until you observe positive signs that he/she intends to observe same b) you should not engage in distracting activities, such as drinking, reading, using a cell phone, applying makeup, etc. and c) you should NOT allow horseplay in the vehicle such that it will be a distraction. If you are a passenger, you should help the driver to adhere to those defensive techniques.

2) Before purchasing an automobile, you should check its safety ratings ( e.g. IIHS and/or NTHSA ). You should NOT ride in an unsafe automobile.

3) As far as it is possible, you should only ride in automobiles equipped with 3-point seat belts and airbags - and use the seat belt as it was intended for use. You should NOT put heavy items unsecured in a seat behind you - and that includes children; you should not put ANY items on the rear window deck, nor atop the dashboard in front of you.

4) You should carry a METAL ID tag upon your person, indicating your name, address, and blood type. If you have medicinal allergies, they should be noted. You should prepare in advance for the unlikely event that you are involved in an accident that leaves you incapacitated, and in which usual documentation is either unavailable or destroyed. Whether you live or die could depend on how quickly your blood type or next of kin can be determined.

5) To the best of your ability, you should maintain Life, Health, and Long-term care insurance policies.

All of the above may not PREVENT your being disabled or killed in an automobile accident, but they sure will have an effect on the outcome - if not for YOU, then at least for those who will have to deal with the results.

Other than stating the obvious, doing what I do after 35 years of being in the automotive industry and more years driving, what is your point?

You negate that whole irrelevant spiel by stating at the end that you still can't PREVENT the accident, which *IS* precisely my point.

06/18/2008 02:36:51 PM · #165

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Other than stating the obvious, doing what I do after 35 years of being in the automotive industry and more years driving, what is your point?

That the circumstances of life, whether good or bad, isn't just the result of LUCK.

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

You negate that whole irrelevant spiel by stating at the end that you still can't PREVENT the accident, which *IS* precisely my point.

That's not what I said.
What I said is "All of the above may not PREVENT your being disabled or killed in AN automobile accident". I did not state that you couldn't prevent THE accident described in your scenario. My point was that defensive driving could very well prove to prevent THE accident described in your scenario.

I did, however, grant that even defensive driving cannot prevent every POSSIBLE accident - just most of the accidents that COULD happen were it not for defensive driving.

06/18/2008 02:56:33 PM · #166

Originally posted by RonB:

I did, however, grant that even defensive driving cannot prevent every POSSIBLE accident - just most of the accidents that COULD happen were it not for defensive driving.

Exactly.

No matter how prepared you are, no matter what steps you take to minimize your risk, you cannot reduce the risk of any kind of accident to zero.

06/18/2008 02:57:22 PM · #167

This is the stupidest discussion I've ever been a part of on DPC and I regret getting involved.

No one said you can't prepare for everything. No one said bad shit doesn't happen. Who are you arguing with? My point is, chances are pretty good that if you do most things right and try hard enough you can get somewhere. For some strange reason you feel the need to disagree with that???

Sure, tell your kids not to bother trying because it's pointless. There is no difference other then luck between a CEO of a cooperation and the guy that pumps his gas. Buy lotto tickets, skip school, do lots of drugs. Your odds of success are the same.

06/18/2008 03:10:47 PM · #168

Deleted: In deference to Louddog

Message edited by author 2008-06-18 15:13:27.

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

06/18/2008 03:12:17 PM · #169

Originally posted by LoudDog:

No one said you can't prepare for everything. No one said bad shit doesn't happen. Who are you arguing with? My point is, chances are pretty good that if you do most things right and try hard enough you can get somewhere. For some strange reason you feel the need to disagree with that???

The point is that hard work isn't always rewarded the way

coronamv seems to believe and that chance does play a role in success or failure. Luck is not the entire recipe for success, but neither is hard work.

RayEthier

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

06/18/2008 03:14:19 PM · #170

Originally posted by RonB:

[For example, you can reduce the risk of accidental pregnancy to zero by abstaining from sexual activities. FYI, the virgin Mary's pregnancy was no accident.

Actually, his abstaining from sexual activities offers no guarantees of accidental pregancies whatsoever. The abstention should rest with the female of the species in order to offer any form of guaranty. :O)

Ray

06/18/2008 03:17:32 PM · #171

Originally posted by RonB:

FYI, the virgin Mary's pregnancy was no accident.

Why bring that up?

Who cares?

Just another red herring?

Message edited by author 2008-06-18 15:18:32.

06/18/2008 03:20:37 PM · #172

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by RonB:
[For example, you can reduce the risk of accidental pregnancy to zero by abstaining from sexual activities. FYI, the virgin Mary's pregnancy was no accident.

Actually, his abstaining from sexual activities offers no guarantees of accidental pregancies whatsoever. The abstention should rest with the female of the species in order to offer any form of guaranty. :O)

Ray

Sterilization does the same thing, perhaps

RonB would care to proclaim his endorsement of eugenics?

06/18/2008 03:26:02 PM · #173

Originally posted by LoudDog:

This is the stupidest discussion I've ever been a part of on DPC and I regret getting involved.

Yet here you are still.......8>)

Originally posted by LoudDog:

Actually,

coronamv pretty much has stated that on a number of occasions.....hence the discussion.

Originally posted by LoudDog:

Sure, tell your kids not to bother trying because it's pointless. There is no difference other then luck between a CEO of a cooperation and the guy that pumps his gas. Buy lotto tickets, skip school, do lots of drugs. Your odds of success are the same.

Gee, how facetious can you be?

This is the kind of asinine thing you're accusing those of us who keep trying to point out that planning won't prevent everything of saying???????

Give me a break!

Let me spell it out for you.......expect, and plan for the worst, hope and pray for the best, and then do the best with the outcome.

IF YOU'RE LUCKY, and things work out, THEN, and ONLY then can you possibly take credit for SOME of the outcome.

Thinking that you have major control over the outcome is naivete and inexperience.

Maybe this will provide some insight....I love these and feel that it really applies here.......letter perfect examples of how you cannot control the outcome of your relationships with the human race.......no matter what you think or how you plan.

The Paradoxical Commandments
by Dr. Kent M. Keith

People are illogical, unreasonable, and self-centered.
Love them anyway.

If you do good, people will accuse you of selfish ulterior motives.
Do good anyway.

If you are successful, you will win false friends and true enemies.
Succeed anyway.

The good you do today will be forgotten tomorrow.
Do good anyway.

Honesty and frankness make you vulnerable.
Be honest and frank anyway.

The biggest men and women with the biggest ideas can be shot down by the smallest men and women with the smallest minds.
Think big anyway.

People favor underdogs but follow only top dogs.
Fight for a few underdogs anyway.

What you spend years building may be destroyed overnight.
Build anyway.

People really need help but may attack you if you do help them.
Help people anyway.

Give the world the best you have and you'll get kicked in the teeth.
Give the world the best you have anyway.

06/18/2008 03:37:46 PM · #174

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by RonB:
[For example, you can reduce the risk of accidental pregnancy to zero by abstaining from sexual activities. FYI, the virgin Mary's pregnancy was no accident.

Actually, his abstaining from sexual activities offers no guarantees of accidental pregancies whatsoever. The abstention should rest with the female of the species in order to offer any form of guaranty. :O)

Ray

Sterilization does the same thing, perhaps RonB would care to proclaim his endorsement of eugenics?

OK. Let's belabor the point.

Sterilization does NOT do the same thing. MANY a pregnancy has resulted following sterilization ( both male and female ).

In a 10 year study, 143 of 10,685 sterilized women became pregnant; ref here

"The 5-year failure rates following vasectomy are "similar to those previously reported following tubal sterilization and similar to vasectomy failure rates previously reported in 2 other studies," the authors note. "; ref here

And no, I do not endorse eugenics.