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11/06/2003 08:21:58 AM · #76 |
Hahahaha, Nice work Bod !
I don't mind the freedom of expression in the challenges or the artistic interpretations at all, some of them are actually a breath of fresh air. I think there is a bit of risk involved if you are hoping to get a good score. Everyone is here to have some fun, some have fun with artistic expression and others with the competition of score. I'm just here to have a little fun and learn something along the way. |
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11/06/2003 09:17:54 AM · #77 |
Can the person who submits these shots choose the category? If so, then we're still not proving anything are we?
-danny
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11/06/2003 09:29:10 AM · #78 |
Originally posted by crabappl3:
Can the person who submits these shots choose the category? If so, then we're still not proving anything are we? |
Like I said I'm just stirring the pot - I'm not trying to prove anything ...
Yes the photographer chooses the category, but the judges can move them to another category if they feel they don't fit.
Message edited by author 2003-11-06 10:26:21. |
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11/06/2003 09:58:48 AM · #79 |
I don't see the problem with any of those photos except maybe the tree. I do admit, however that I had some trouble viewing all of them (kept getting errors, etc) so I went to the site itself and looked over the month's winners. They all seem to be good examples of a "found" still life.
Here's an example for you. I'm writing this directly from my class assignment:
"Take 4 shots of a studio still life and 4 found still life shots."
Now, our instructor defined a found still life as an ordinary, inanimate object that you see every day shot from an interesting angle or perspective. Some of the shots that were submitted by my classmates were:
A garden globe
A bird bath
A clock
A weather vane
A garden gate
A trellis
and an old car (only shot the front of the car)
Now, I have finished voting on all but 25 entries and have only found one submission that I just can't see where they were going with. I think the submissions including animals, etc were taken to be life sitting still... they literally did "still life" and I think this is because a lot of people don't read the description of the challenge (which I believe was debated in great detail in many other threads). While I agree that these photos do not meet the definition of a still life (nor do landscapes), I can see where the photographer was heading and therefore (as they simply took it literally without delving any further into the subject) I can't say they don't fit the challenge at all. I'm not going to lie to you and tell you I am scoring them high, either, but they certainly aren't getting 1s and 2s from me. As I said, there is only one shot I just can't figure out and hopefully they will PM me after the challenge and tell me what they were going for as I would really like to know. |
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11/06/2003 10:21:31 AM · #80 |
Originally posted by MrsFuzzButt:
As I said, there is only one shot I just can't figure out and hopefully they will PM me after the challenge and tell me what they were going for as I would really like to know. |
Oh crap, it's probably mine! ;-)
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11/06/2003 10:25:22 AM · #81 |
Originally posted by crabappl3:
Originally posted by MrsFuzzButt:
As I said, there is only one shot I just can't figure out and hopefully they will PM me after the challenge and tell me what they were going for as I would really like to know. |
Oh crap, it's probably mine! ;-) |
ROFL I doubt it. |
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11/06/2003 10:25:26 AM · #82 |
Originally posted by crabappl3:
[You are mistaken if you think that I only vote high on 'stock' quality shots. There are often many images that move me in a challenge that use unique photographic techniques in their images. I can see photography as more than a 'stock' vs. 'art', but when someone takes a picture of little Susy, and puts it in a still life challenge, they are wasting theirs and my time... |
I'm glad to hear that I unfairly misinterpreted your esthetic values! But this is an educational site; you are not the photo editor with a deadline to pick N great photos for the next issue ... maybe then bad photos would be a waste of your time.
Any teacher who took a kid's paper and said "this is a waste of my time, I dislike this so much I don't even want to grade it!" would be abdicating their specific responsibility of helping that kid learn what is "better," and ENCOURAGING the kid to improve.
You may not LIKE my photo, may think it has compositional or technical flaws, may find many other problems. But at a community site where we agree to submit our photos for PEER reveiw and commentary, and to review others' in kind, to say anyone's effort is a "waste" of your time seems pretentious, insulting, and unnecesssary.
Imagine how much (little) progress we'd make if all R&D departments told their scientists to not waste their time with unsuccessful experiements.
Message edited by author 2003-11-06 10:26:32. |
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11/06/2003 10:39:44 AM · #83 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
[quote=crabappl3]I'm glad to hear that I unfairly misinterpreted your esthetic values! But this is an educational site; you are not the photo editor with a deadline to pick N great photos for the next issue ... maybe then bad photos would be a waste of your time.
Any teacher who took a kid's paper and said "this is a waste of my time, I dislike this so much I don't even want to grade it!" would be abdicating their specific responsibility of helping that kid learn what is "better," and ENCOURAGING the kid to improve.
You may not LIKE my photo, may think it has compositional or technical flaws, may find many other problems. But at a community site where we agree to submit our photos for PEER reveiw and commentary, and to review others' in kind, to say anyone's effort is a "waste" of your time seems pretentious, insulting, and unnecesssary.
Imagine how much (little) progress we'd make if all R&D departments told their scientists to not waste their time with unsuccessful experiements. |
If I were a teacher, and little suzy brought me a paper on the American Civil War, and I had asked her for a paper on the Silver Mines, then I would surely tell her that she was off base, and score the paper accordingly. Just because she gave me something, doesn't make it worth my time to read past the first paragraph if I realize it was totally off base. So in the context of this site, if I open an image that is off subject (in my opinion) then I am not obligated to sit and stare at it trying to figure out their artistic impression of the challenge. I look at it, don't like it, score appropriately, and move on. Images that complete the assignment, are well done and visually appealing are much like a well researched term paper, that has all the parts in it to make it complete. Like an English teacher, we deduct points for bad spelling (technical aspects), bad composition (bad composition), no main idea (no main subject), etc.
This is a challenge site. Why is it so hard for people to understand that? You are entering photos here for a reason! To try and win. If not, then deviantarts.com, photopoints.com and others allow you to upload your images for critique only. Why flood the challenge with images you just want feedback on? There are other avenues for that, use them. Quit filling up the challenges with shots that you 'know won't do well, but am submitting it anyway' shots.
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11/06/2003 10:45:03 AM · #84 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
But this is an educational site; you are not the photo editor with a deadline to pick N great photos for the next issue ... maybe then bad photos would be a waste of your time. |
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. DPC is FIRST a CHALLENGE site, and SECOND an educational site. This isn't a photography course, and although it's a very valuable resource and great instructional tool, the thing that drives everything at this site is the fact that there is a CHALLENGE aspect to it.
While I don't really agree with the phrase "waste of time," I do admit that it is getting pretty tiring to see people submit with very little regard to the challenge topic. For me, that is first and foremost the most important thing I vote on. If I don't see how it fits into a topic, it gets severely marked down. Sorry. But I'm also ONE voter and how I vote is my perogative.
For us to pretend this is some kind of photo utopia is just ridiculous. Most of the people on here would fall all over themselves for a ribbon. The community aspect is incredible, don't get me wrong, but people enter the challenges to improve their work and improve their standing on the site. To continually submit work that goes against the grain right off the bat isn't helping anyone! Voters will vote it down and discount it because it's not "on topic," and then the submitter won't get any decent feedback.
It's fine to try and run headstrong into the wind, but around here it's best to save sunsets for a sunset challenge, and portraits for a portrait challenge.... Photos of "opportunity" that are wedged into a topic just because of deadline constraints don't help anyone, and they don't better the site. |
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11/06/2003 10:45:36 AM · #85 |
| crab and i are sharing a brain today, apparently. eep! |
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11/06/2003 10:48:13 AM · #86 |
Originally posted by crabappl3:
This is a challenge site. Why is it so hard for people to understand that? You are entering photos here for a reason! To try and win. If not, then deviantarts.com, photopoints.com and others allow you to upload your images for critique only. Why flood the challenge with images you just want feedback on? There are other avenues for that, use them. Quit filling up the challenges with shots that you 'know won't do well, but am submitting it anyway' shots. |
My sentiments exactly. Well put Danny!
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11/06/2003 10:52:34 AM · #87 |
Wouldn't you still want to read Suzy's paper to assess the status of her vocabulary, grammar, logic, etc? Her progress in language is as important as her knowledge of history. Teachers are supposed to look at the whole child, and to consider more than marks on paper.
I'd want to have Suzy's hearing tested to see if she heard "Silver Wars" instead of "Civil War" and to test her for reading disability to see if she reversed some of the letters when she wrote down the assignment.
OOPS! -- I see my rushing has caused me to reverse your examples ... sorry.
Mostly, I think MY submissions ARE on-topic when I submit them. I'm sorry if you think the 5 seconds it takes to decide if you like it and go on to the next image is a significant waste of your time; I really can't think of any way to compensate you for that except maybe emailing you your 2¢ via PayPal ....
Message edited by author 2003-11-06 10:55:02. |
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11/06/2003 10:53:01 AM · #88 |
Originally posted by crabappl3:
This is a challenge site. Why is it so hard for people to understand that? You are entering photos here for a reason! To try and win. If not, then deviantarts.com, photopoints.com and others allow you to upload your images for critique only. Why flood the challenge with images you just want feedback on? There are other avenues for that, use them. Quit filling up the challenges with shots that you 'know won't do well, but am submitting it anyway' shots. |
Well said Danny (edit: and Muckpond, too). I think this point is the root of frustration for many of us. I don't mind critiquing bad shots if the intent of the shot was to show their best in effort to win a ribbon or place in the top ten. But if someone just posts their dog or cat or something else for any other reason, I don't really feel like spending my time critiquing it or voting on it either. How do you know their intent? I don't know, but if it's that far off they need more help than I can give them.
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11/06/2003 10:55:26 AM · #89 |
I said it here last night, "I just don't think it is in the sprit of things!"...
Humbly, this site is appropriatly named "dp-challenge". Maybe I am in left field here but, it seems to me that in the Sprit of things, an unannounced 'challenge' (theme as it were) appears much as a homework assigment in a class. Now everyone go out and do their best at it - must be turned in by next week!
I have not been on the site long in terms of many, but I have seen some works on here by people that's what I consider too be highly talented (very). We are not all so, including myself but I work at it. This is a great forum for us interested and/or passionate in the talent of photography to have some fun, take on a "bounded" challenge, and to get the opinion of others of our efforts.
You know I have some absolute great shots of my beautiful dogs sitting still. Portrait, perhaps, but what they are not is interpreted as a "Still Life" (as literal as they are). Come on, the "challenge" even called for the "classic form" in this case.
Some will always and forever do it better than others, but I think it was Nike that said it so well - now:
"Just Do It"... |
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11/06/2003 10:58:33 AM · #90 |
From the Official About DPC page (emphasis added):
DPChallenge was created in January 2002 by two friends, Drew Ungvarsky (drewmedia) and Langdon Oliver (langdon). The original idea behind the site was for it to be a place where the two of us and a couple of our friends could teach ourselves to be better photographers by giving each other a 'challenge' for the week.
The "teach" is the purpose, the "challenge" is the method. |
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11/06/2003 11:12:21 AM · #91 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
From the Official About DPC page (emphasis added):
DPChallenge was created in January 2002 by two friends, Drew Ungvarsky (drewmedia) and Langdon Oliver (langdon). The original idea behind the site was for it to be a place where the two of us and a couple of our friends could teach ourselves to be better photographers by giving each other a 'challenge' for the week.
The "teach" is the purpose, the "challenge" is the method. |
That's the point, people aren't paying attention to the "method".
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11/06/2003 11:19:42 AM · #92 |
Exactly, people aren't concidering that this is a challenge site. 'Nuff said. I'll stop now.
-danny
Originally posted by goodtempo:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
From the Official About DPC page (emphasis added):
DPChallenge was created in January 2002 by two friends, Drew Ungvarsky (drewmedia) and Langdon Oliver (langdon). The original idea behind the site was for it to be a place where the two of us and a couple of our friends could teach ourselves to be better photographers by giving each other a 'challenge' for the week.
The "teach" is the purpose, the "challenge" is the method. |
That's the point, people aren't paying attention to the "method". |
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11/06/2003 11:26:14 AM · #93 |
Obviously there are those that are on track with this and those that are not (sorry its true).
But watch out!
If we thought that the Still Life was misused. I can only imagine how Book Titles is going to be...
Please folks, Let's really see the title in the shots! |
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11/06/2003 11:34:34 AM · #94 |
Originally posted by goodtempo:
Originally posted by crabappl3:
This is a challenge site. Why is it so hard for people to understand that? You are entering photos here for a reason! To try and win. If not, then deviantarts.com, photopoints.com and others allow you to upload your images for critique only. Why flood the challenge with images you just want feedback on? There are other avenues for that, use them. Quit filling up the challenges with shots that you 'know won't do well, but am submitting it anyway' shots. |
Well said Danny (edit: and Muckpond, too). I think this point is the root of frustration for many of us. I don't mind critiquing bad shots if the intent of the shot was to show their best in effort to win a ribbon or place in the top ten. But if someone just posts their dog or cat or something else for any other reason, I don't really feel like spending my time critiquing it or voting on it either. How do you know their intent? I don't know, but if it's that far off they need more help than I can give them. |
Really, I couldn't agree more. Very well said. |
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11/06/2003 11:37:38 AM · #95 |
Originally posted by jefalk:
Obviously there are those that are on track with this and those that are not (sorry its true).
But watch out!
If we thought that the Still Life was misused. I can only imagine how Book Titles is going to be...
Please folks, Let's really see the title in the shots! |
And remember - while the Lord of the Rings might well currently be in the early anticipation phase for the third movie - there was also a book once upon a time :) |
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11/06/2003 11:50:43 AM · #96 |
I googled "still life" before I took my picture and got ArtLex Art Dictionary. It says this about still life - A picture of inanimate objects. Common still life subjects include vessels, food, flowers, books, clothing.
The page is //www.artlex.com/ It also has examples from famous paintings.
Christina in GA |
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11/06/2003 04:05:08 PM · #97 |
Originally posted by MrsFuzzButt:
Originally posted by crabappl3:
To all you 'artist' out there... if this was a college photography course and you were given an assignment to do a 'still life' shot, and you turned in a sunset shot or portrait shot and got an F, would you argue with the prof that it was your interpretation of still life?
This site is to help you learn concepts and techniques. The challenges are often based upon sound photographic backing. To put up something in a CHALLENGE because you think you can somehow shoehorn it in, although it isn't at all what a standard photographer would think of for the theme, then you're doing yourself an injustice. In just over one year I have gone from a point and shooter, to a hired out accomplished photographer. I'm not saying all my stuff is good, or dead on, but I try to take something as simple as still life, and use it to perfect that aspect of my portfolio. It's all these challenges added up together that make me feel confident enough to go out and try and sell my services and photographs.
Do it for the betterment of your photography. Even if your score tanks, but you have perfected a new technique, then you are better off for it.
-danny |
Funny you should mention college classes. this challenge happens to fall 3 weeks after our similar lesson in class. I darn sure would argue with him... although when he gives out assignments, he is extremely specific as to how they are expected to be interpreted and as they have a direct effect on both my grade in his class and my overall GPA I stick to what he wants... just as you stick to what you client wants when you do a shoot. This site, however, has no such effect on my outside life. It is just for FUN. Therefore, I CHOOSE to go for the outer edge of what a Still Life is classically defined as. I'm not about to give you or anyone else what you want or expect just to get a high mark when I am doing this as a fun thing. Anyone can sit down, look up Still Life in a book or online and give you people EXACTLY what you would think of as still life photos. How many people can make you rethink your definition of something? That to me is the true test of any photographer's skills. Can you think outside the box? Can you give me a Still Life photo that isn't a boring cliche?
Lastly, just for the heck of it, let's take a good look at what all your sacred techniques are. Do you think the photographers of the past sat down and said, Gee I'm gonna shoot a still life today? Heck no. They said shoot, that bowl of fruit would look really neat if I put it on that table with a complimentary colored cloth to really set it off. Just like poets don't sit down and say I think I'll write in iambic pentameter today. They just wrote what they felt and someone came along later and tore it apart because they couldn't do it themselves. "Techniques" were developed to teach the masses who didn't have the natural ability and talent how to imitate those who do. When I'm out shooting, ROT and DOF don't even enter my mind. I look at a scene and see a beautiful photo... so I take the shot. I like the way a leaf is contrasted by the others on which it lays so I shoot it. I take the beauty I see and try to share it with someone else. I'm sorry if photography isn't to you what it is to me, but that doesn't mean my interpretations are any less valid then yours. |
a poet may not think about the technique he uses to write poems, but, if he wants to be a GOOD poet and get published, he learns. he learns about grammar and sentence structure so he can make his thoughts understood by the public.
an artist or photographer may not think about technique every time they create an image, but, if they want to be GOOD, they learn. they learn composition and about colors so they can create a pleasing image.
once you learn a technique and practice it, it becomes part of your natural ability and doesn't hinder creative flow. techniques are tools used by people WITH talent, NOT the opposite.
why would you NOT want to submit something that you think people will like? hasn't anyone ever heard the phrase "put your best foot forward"?!?!?
in my opinion, if you don't learn the techniques of photography and at least TRY to create something appealing, then all you're doing is taking snapshots. perfect for scrapbooks or family albums, but, not worthy of competitions.
sher |
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11/06/2003 04:23:09 PM · #98 |
Originally posted by sher9204:
if they want to be GOOD, they learn. they learn composition and about colors so they can create a pleasing image. |
And here I think you've fingered the crux of the conflict -- there are many of us who do not subscribe to the equation
Good Picture = Pleasing Image
My images may not may be pleasing for some people to look at, but I think at least some of them are "good photographs" to at least the extent that they are not a "waste" of anyone's time.
There is plenty of good art which is not "pleasing." Plenty of unpleasant artists too ... but if they make you think or emote, they may be "good" artists.
Message edited by author 2003-11-06 16:23:48. |
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11/06/2003 04:34:50 PM · #99 |
I can play this game too.
From the challenge rules:
Each challenge will state its dates for voting. Users should rate each and every photograph in the challenge on a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being a perfect photograph). At the end of the week, the photograph holding the greatest average of votes will be declared the winner of that challenge. Second and third place photographs will also be recognized. While voting, users are asked to keep in highest consideration the topic of the challenge and base their rating accordingly.
Let me sing it from the rooftops: "...keep in highest consideration the topic of the challenge..."
If we're going to be so literal: THE RULES TELL US THAT THE TOPIC IS THE MOST IMPORTANT POINT TO SUBMITTING A PHOTOGRAPH TO A CHALLENGE!!!!
Message edited by author 2003-11-06 16:37:39. |
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11/06/2003 04:41:08 PM · #100 |
[quote=neenee1999]There are some great pictures on the still life challenge.
i'd have to disagree. I think that most submissions are quite boring. |
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