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05/31/2008 04:19:09 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
But completely aside from that (the age issue), where do we stand on the obligation of citizens to pledge loyalty to their state? You cannot become a naturalized citizen of the USA without doing so; I'd assume the same is true of most states, surely? Is this reasonable? And on the broader canvas, is it reasonable of "us" to expect "our" citizens to be loyal to the state?
If the answer is yes, then when should we start teaching this issue of loyalty, or perhaps more precisely the issue of what responsibilities a citizen of a state has TO that state, as an entity? Is this something that we, in the USA, do well? Poorly? Not at all?
R. |
Those are interesting and provocative questions. It makes me think back to an insightful part of the decision in the Barnette pledge case written by two of the consenting justices:
"Words uttered under coercion are proof of loyalty to nothing but self-interest..."
"...Love of country must spring from willing hearts and free minds, inspired by a fair administration of wise laws enacted by the people's elected representatives within the bounds of express constitutional prohibitions."
The oaths make for good ceremony perhaps, but what may really matter is educating current citizens and potential citizens regarding those things about the US that they may find worthy of loyalty and dedication. I believe that already happens to some extent as new citizens have to learn about the constitution and some history among other things. I'd like to see much more robust civics education in the public schools. Students in Michigan only need 1 semester of US government to graduate from high school and I don't believe that's enough.
Perhaps the oath (or just a document) of citizenship could be as simple as this: "I freely accept citizenship in the United States of America and I understand and will abide by the Constitution of the United States of America to the best of my ability." Sure there are many other legal details and checks that can be (and are) taken care of before this point, but at that moment a simple agreement about the most basic part of becomming a US citizen is all the government should need.
(all just MHO as Bear_Music has made me think about this a bit) |
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05/31/2008 04:29:46 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by JMart:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
But completely aside from that (the age issue), where do we stand on the obligation of citizens to pledge loyalty to their state? You cannot become a naturalized citizen of the USA without doing so; I'd assume the same is true of most states, surely? Is this reasonable? And on the broader canvas, is it reasonable of "us" to expect "our" citizens to be loyal to the state?
If the answer is yes, then when should we start teaching this issue of loyalty, or perhaps more precisely the issue of what responsibilities a citizen of a state has TO that state, as an entity? Is this something that we, in the USA, do well? Poorly? Not at all?
R. |
Those are interesting and provocative questions... |
That's why I'd like to see them discussed :-)
Food for thought: we think of ourselves as a "free" people, but as history has shown us there can be no freedom without power to back it up. No man (or woman) is truly free who lacks the power to protect his/her own essential interests. This is, essentially, the contract we make with the state, at least in an ideal world Ă¢€” we pledge our loyalty to the state, and count on the state to be loyal to our best interests.
Establishing such a "contract" between citizen and state requires a fundamental willingness to compromise on the part of each citizen, because often the collective good is not what the individual may perceive to be in his or her best interest. It seems to me that more and more the American citizenry is losing sight of the fundamental nature of this contract, and is devolving towards a "me-centric" view of issues that should be viewed from a broader perspective. This is where education is failing us, or at least one area where it is failing us.
And no, one semester of "civics" is not enough education to create an aware and informed citizenry, which (at the end) is the core component of a truly free and powerful people.
R.
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05/31/2008 05:47:15 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by JMart:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by posthumous:
I pledge allegiance to the flag... why am I pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth? Where is the humanity of a flag? What are the ideas of a flag? |
You aren't. You're pledging allegiance to what the flag represents. Just like those the word "flowerpot" isn't really a flowerpot that you can plant flowers in, rather it represents the idea of a flowerpot. |
No, it says to pledge allegiance to the flag *AND* the republic for which it stands. Both the symbol and what it symbolizes. It's like an explicit call for idol worship. And then as someone mentioned they added a test for atheism. I find the whole thing distasteful. |
Luckily for you, the the country represented by the pledge you despise won't force you to recite it with a gun to your head. |
Actually, that's not a matter of luck. That circumstance was brought to us by some very wise & well educated people, going back to the authors of great documents like the Magna Carta, the Declaration of Independence, and the US constitution, along with countless brave people who fought and died to institute and maintain a society based on the principles contained within those documents.
That's why I have a right, and for me it's a responsibility, to not recite the Pledge of Allegiance just because a government official says to do it. In fact, in my role as a public school teacher I believe I am supporting the US Constitution by not taking part in an activity that violates the spirit of the constitution IMHO. |
My point wasn't that the freedoms outlined in the constitution are the result of luck, rather that in many other places, refusal to cite a similar pledge would be a treasonous offense that could be the last act of defiance a person would ever make.
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05/31/2008 06:42:17 PM · #54 |
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05/31/2008 07:51:49 PM · #55 |
I will always say the pledge and salute the flag regardless of what the government is doing. By doing this it does not mean that I agree with everything we and the goverment
is doing. But it is my country. I do not care what other non citizens do or think of us. I will try to help make changes. It is our house and we will deal with what is needed to fix ourselves. In the mean time "Old Glory" in #1.
The flag represents our ways, either right or wrong it should be respected by our citizens. If you do not like the flag, the pledge, the star spangled banner, then just leave. These few things does not say that you belive in everything we and our government does. I dont agree with the liberal bias our teachers have. Which is approved by our state governments. So maybe I should bad mouth the government to the world.
Message edited by author 2008-05-31 20:00:17. |
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05/31/2008 08:44:46 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by bcoble:
If you do not like the flag, the pledge, the star spangled banner, then just leave. |
Actually, I'm here because I was born here and I stay for the constitution. Strange to me that you can think yourself patriotic for waving a flag, saying a pledge, and singing a song. Telling people to leave because they don't think like you shows a deep ignorance of what actually makes the United States a great country: A plural society brought together by a constitution. I welcome dissenting opinions but if your response to people like me is to tell us to leave then you really need to do some reading about US history and law. :\ |
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05/31/2008 09:19:50 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
My point wasn't that the freedoms outlined in the constitution are the result of luck, rather that in many other places, refusal to cite a similar pledge would be a treasonous offense that could be the last act of defiance a person would ever make. |
Yes, I understood what you wrote. I'm not sure I understand why you brought it up though. I was just pointing out the importance of exercizing, fighting and arguing for the freedoms US citizens have, particularly because of the price that has been paid by people who came before us to make sure we have these freedoms. |
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05/31/2008 11:52:04 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by bcoble:
If you do not like the flag, ... |
I like our flag, but it is just a piece of cloth. The ideals and the Constitution which it represents are far more important to me.
Originally posted by bcoble:
the pledge, |
I don't mind the pledge, although I believe the "under God" portion is unnecessary, divisive and not representative of all Americans or of the freedom of religion provided for under our First Amendment. Additionally, I do have a moral problem with coercing children into reciting loyalty oaths.
Originally posted by bcoble:
the star spangled banner, |
Nice song ... though it gets a little high at the end.
Originally posted by bcoble:
then just leave. |
No. I'd rather stay and work to put or keep these things in line with the Constitution. |
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06/01/2008 12:42:49 AM · #59 |
Originally posted by JMart:
Perhaps the oath (or just a document) of citizenship could be as simple as this: "I freely accept citizenship in the United States of America and I understand and will abide by the Constitution of the United States of America to the best of my ability." Sure there are many other legal details and checks that can be (and are) taken care of before this point, but at that moment a simple agreement about the most basic part of becomming a US citizen is all the government should need. |
Your version left out the most important parts. The ones that say you agree to defend the country, even at the cost of your own life if necessary, and that your allegiance is to the United States of America only. Your version might be okay for visitors though.
The Oath of Citizenship
I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God. In acknowledgement whereof I have hereunto affixed my signature.
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06/01/2008 12:43:53 AM · #60 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
But completely aside from that (the age issue), where do we stand on the obligation of citizens to pledge loyalty to their state? |
I obey the laws. I pay taxes. I vote. And when the Constitution is threatened I speak up in irrelevant forums that are supposed to be about other things. |
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06/01/2008 01:45:50 AM · #61 |
Originally posted by Mick:
Originally posted by JMart:
Perhaps the oath (or just a document) of citizenship could be as simple as this: "I freely accept citizenship in the United States of America and I understand and will abide by the Constitution of the United States of America to the best of my ability." Sure there are many other legal details and checks that can be (and are) taken care of before this point, but at that moment a simple agreement about the most basic part of becomming a US citizen is all the government should need. |
Your version left out the most important parts. The ones that say you agree to defend the country, even at the cost of your own life if necessary, and that your allegiance is to the United States of America only. Your version might be okay for visitors though.
The Oath of Citizenship
I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God. In acknowledgement whereof I have hereunto affixed my signature. |
Yes, I read this the first time it was posted. My point was that those are not the most important parts! The vast majority of US citizens will never have the opportunity to defend the constitution in a military capacity, yet half of the oath has to do with national defense.
If people acknowledge and understanding and agree to live by the constitution the rest of the military things on the list should take care of themselves, unless of course military service is only covered by the oath and not US law :/ Funny thing is that people born in the US don't have to make such promises, although I did legally register for the draft and to vote when I was 18 years old.
Of course, if you listened to congress on the steps of the capitol reciting the pledge of allegiance a few years ago you might think that believing in a god is the most important part of being a citizen. I just happen to think understanding and trying to obey the constitution is far more important than any of these other issues. |
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06/01/2008 02:17:19 AM · #62 |
And yet another twist.
Teach your children well
German might work better than Spanish. |
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06/01/2008 05:03:25 PM · #63 |
I prefer the term teaching as to calling the pledge "Brainwashing" or "indoctrination." You cannot expect someone to be good at anything unless they have either been taught or were able to teach themselves. How can we expect children to be a good citizen if the have never heard the pledge or any of those terms until they become a legal "adult" at age 18?
On the other hand thinking about the capacity of children; lying, stealing and cheating are also in the realm of "adults" but as any parent or teacher knows, you don't have to teach a child how to do any of those. You teach them why you should not do them.
Originally posted by GeneralE:
To take the Oath of Citizenship, you must be a responsible, competent adult -- the law does not recognize either condition to exist in the case of children. Can a fourth-grader enter into a contract to buy a car? Buy a house? Agree to perform services in exchange for a fee?
How can you expect a child who doesn't understand the concepts of "allegience," "state," "republic," or "nation" (I know, I've asked) to enter into a contract which pledges them to defend -- possibly with their lives -- something they can't understand and are not legally allowed to participate in.
To require rote repetiton of a phrase beyond the intellectual capacity of the reciter to truly understand it is the very definition of indoctrination, or "brainwashing" as we refer to it when our "enemies" practice it. |
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06/01/2008 05:43:52 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by goldenhawkofky:
How can we expect children to be a good citizen if the have never heard the pledge or any of those terms until they become a legal "adult" at age 18?
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That raises the question, did good citizens exist before the original pledge was written in 1892. Seriously, I agree that it's important to teach kids about civic responsibilities, I just disagree that repeating the pledge is the best way to teach such things. |
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06/01/2008 06:14:06 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by milo655321:
Originally posted by bcoble:
the star spangled banner, |
Nice song ... though it gets a little high at the end. |
That's because the tune was plagarized from an old English drinking song, meant to be sung when the tunesmiths were ... hmmm ... a little high? |
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06/01/2008 06:17:05 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by goldenhawkofky:
I prefer the term teaching as to calling the pledge "Brainwashing" or "indoctrination." You cannot expect someone to be good at anything unless they have either been taught or were able to teach themselves. How can we expect children to be a good citizen if the have never heard the pledge or any of those terms until they become a legal "adult" at age 18? |
Discussing the Pledge, and learning to understand the meaning of terms like "Liberty and Justice" would be fine -- reciting it by rote from age five on up without ever discussing it is indoctrination or brainwashing, depending on whether it's your kid or someone else's. |
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06/01/2008 06:27:30 PM · #67 |
If you read the article about Tucson, the students are asked not just to recite it daily but to sign a written copy. I am not sure if Tucson is the only school district with that policy.
Message edited by author 2008-06-01 18:42:50. |
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06/01/2008 06:36:40 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by JMart:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
My point wasn't that the freedoms outlined in the constitution are the result of luck, rather that in many other places, refusal to cite a similar pledge would be a treasonous offense that could be the last act of defiance a person would ever make. |
Yes, I understood what you wrote. I'm not sure I understand why you brought it up though. I was just pointing out the importance of exercizing, fighting and arguing for the freedoms US citizens have, particularly because of the price that has been paid by people who came before us to make sure we have these freedoms. |
My point was that the poster to which I replied seems to like very little about the country in which he lives (not just based on this thread, but many others as well.). I just thought he'd enjoy something he could appreciate about living here.
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06/01/2008 06:46:49 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by JMart:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
My point wasn't that the freedoms outlined in the constitution are the result of luck, rather that in many other places, refusal to cite a similar pledge would be a treasonous offense that could be the last act of defiance a person would ever make. |
Yes, I understood what you wrote. I'm not sure I understand why you brought it up though. I was just pointing out the importance of exercizing, fighting and arguing for the freedoms US citizens have, particularly because of the price that has been paid by people who came before us to make sure we have these freedoms. |
My point was that the poster to which I replied seems to like very little about the country in which he lives (not just based on this thread, but many others as well.). I just thought he'd enjoy something he could appreciate about living here. |
Oh, that does make more sense now thanks. Those first amendment rights you refered to (and many of us keep exercizing:) are among the greatest things about the US indeed if anyone needs an example of what's good here. |
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06/01/2008 07:48:58 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by JMart:
Originally posted by Mick:
Originally posted by JMart:
Perhaps the oath (or just a document) of citizenship could be as simple as this: "I freely accept citizenship in the United States of America and I understand and will abide by the Constitution of the United States of America to the best of my ability." Sure there are many other legal details and checks that can be (and are) taken care of before this point, but at that moment a simple agreement about the most basic part of becomming a US citizen is all the government should need. |
Your version left out the most important parts. The ones that say you agree to defend the country, even at the cost of your own life if necessary, and that your allegiance is to the United States of America only. Your version might be okay for visitors though.
The Oath of Citizenship
I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God. In acknowledgement whereof I have hereunto affixed my signature. |
Yes, I read this the first time it was posted. My point was that those are not the most important parts! The vast majority of US citizens will never have the opportunity to defend the constitution in a military capacity, yet half of the oath has to do with national defense.
If people acknowledge and understanding and agree to live by the constitution the rest of the military things on the list should take care of themselves, unless of course military service is only covered by the oath and not US law :/ Funny thing is that people born in the US don't have to make such promises, although I did legally register for the draft and to vote when I was 18 years old.
Of course, if you listened to congress on the steps of the capitol reciting the pledge of allegiance a few years ago you might think that believing in a god is the most important part of being a citizen. I just happen to think understanding and trying to obey the constitution is far more important than any of these other issues. |
I think that any reasonably intelligence person who is trying to become a citizen of the United States of America would expect to be required to obey the laws of the country, including the constitution. I canĂ¢€™t think of a single country that allows its people to disregard the law. However, they may be less aware of the fact that our country also requires its citizens to defend the country. In other words, simply agreeing to obey the law is much less significant than agreeing to risk your life for your country. Therefore, the parts that you think are irrelevant and unnecessary are really the most important parts. The part that you think is most important pretty much goes without saying.
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06/02/2008 12:23:12 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by Mick:
I canĂ¢€™t think of a single country that allows its people to disregard the law. However, they may be less aware of the fact that our country also requires its citizens to defend the country. In other words, simply agreeing to obey the law is much less significant than agreeing to risk your life for your country. Therefore, the parts that you think are irrelevant and unnecessary are really the most important parts. The part that you think is most important pretty much goes without saying. |
Isn't that true of most countries, that as a citizen you are potentially required to be part of the military?
It is question #1 in the Australian citizen test, for example. Mind you, it then goes on to test your knowledge of cricket, so...
Message edited by author 2008-06-02 12:25:04. |
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06/02/2008 12:44:23 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by Mick:
I canĂ¢€™t think of a single country that allows its people to disregard the law. However, they may be less aware of the fact that our country also requires its citizens to defend the country. In other words, simply agreeing to obey the law is much less significant than agreeing to risk your life for your country. Therefore, the parts that you think are irrelevant and unnecessary are really the most important parts. The part that you think is most important pretty much goes without saying. |
Isn't that true of most countries, that as a citizen you are potentially required to be part of the military?
It is question #1 in the Australian citizen test, for example. Mind you, it then goes on to test your knowledge of cricket, so... |
Many developed countries have mandatory military service for everyone able to serve. |
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