This is Who I Am & Why...to Whom It May Concern...

Tamron 16-300mm Di II VC PZD MACRO w/Canon Nikon mount

05/17/2008 10:24:33 PM · #201

Skin that there snake, that would make sum goood cookiiiiing

Pentax DA L 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 AL

05/17/2008 10:34:20 PM · #202

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

"Original sin", according to Christian theology, is a condition of mankind, not a whole lot different than being a mammal, say, or a biped; it just is, it represents being separated from God's grace, and it is remedied by willingly giving yourself back to God, basically.

From wiki:

Original sin is said to result from the Fall of Man, when Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit of a particular tree in the Garden of Eden. This first sin ("the original sin"), an action of the first human beings, is traditionally understood to be the cause of "original sin", the fallen state from which human beings can be saved only by God's grace.

It's NOT the same thing, not the same category of thing, as being an evil person in one's life. It's just that the theology says that all the way back with Adam and Eve mankind engineered its own fall from grace, and it's up to each of us, individually, to seek a return to grace.

So I think that answers your question: nobody's saying newborn infants are evil and despicable. Indeed, they are a blank slate, and because they have (or will have,a s they mature) free will, each infant is capable of growing into its own condition of grace, and this is what the Bible is teaching us, exhorting us, to do.

R.

Hmmm.....

Thanks!

You'd think by this point someone might have nudged me in that right direction before.....or I might have stumbled across it.

I can see how that works.......that clean slate kinda goes along with the whole free will thing, doesn't it?

Somewhere along the line at the beginning, we're given guidance to go along with that free will and hopefully, we choose to do right by ourselves.

And being that we're flawed, some fall short, and some more than others.

The beauty of the God thing as offered up by the teachings of a truly good person is that you can discover salvation and solace in the God of your understanding in the relationship as it happens for you......if you're lucky.

And if nothing like that works for you, that should be as it is as well.

ETA: Thanks, Robert

Message edited by author 2008-05-17 22:35:04.

mgsmith53

Pentax K-R

05/17/2008 10:58:10 PM · #203

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by farfel53:
Is that belief based on any fact, or is it just what you would like to think?

Isaiah chapter 53 tell you who He is, what He was to do, and why He came. Written several hundred years beforehand.

Is Isaiah based on any fact or is it just what you would like to think? Note that this is the same prophet who predicted a cockatrice and dragon (14:29), predicted the son of Mary would be named Immanuel (7:14), that Damascus would cease to be a city (17:1), and that the Nile would completely dry up (19:5). A veritable fountain of knowledge, eh? Shall we also accept as fact that God instructed Isaiah to wander around North Africa completely naked for three years (20:3)?

PS- Isaiah 53, which you seem to attribute to a prediction of Jesus, is written in past tense some 700+ years BC. :-/

Hmmmm...so foreshadowing is a valid literary technique for a murder mystery, but not for prophecy...I see. Allegory, alliteration, simile and symbolism can just be written off because they don't fit your idea of "prophecy". Never mind. Your mind is made up.

I only question your description of Jesus because to most of us that do know Him, it don't fit. It's like counterfeiting money with a sharpie and a pad of sticky-notes. Nice try, but it don't fly.

But imagine Jesus however you want...or just imagine a "Flying Spaghetti Monster" if you would rather...but you can know the real one if you wish, as well.

I apologise for being somewhat sarcastic.

05/17/2008 11:05:46 PM · #204

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

This first sin ("the original sin"), an action of the first human beings, is traditionally understood to be the cause of "original sin", the fallen state from which human beings can be saved only by God's grace.

Originally posted by scalvert:

Right. Two particular people with absolutely no concept of right and wrong committed the ultimate crime of eating from a tree that an omnipotent being placed in their living room along with a persuasive talking (!) reptile that they had no reason to distrust, so now everyone requires salvation. YOU must repent for a crime of naivete committed by two ancestors thousands of years ago... an absolutely prehistoric concept of justice that sane people would find abhorrent in any other context. Imagine being taught to recite from childhood that that you are damned for all eternity unless you express heartfelt remorse for a crime said to have been committed by two people East Africa six thousand years ago. Kill your brother and you walk the earth with a mark, but eat the wrong snack and your great, great grandchildren burn in hell. Sorry, that story goes in the reject pile for me.

Shannon, I do so love your irreverent, acerbic style of getting right to the meat of it.

That's kind of the impression I've always had, unfortunately, from people who sound to me ever so much like

777STAN and

Flash that preach, yet are not able to communicate (at least to me) over the long haul, and/or when really cornered about their theology.

I mean them no ill will, but people who have that style are so frustrating to me when they won't answer simple questions without spouting a semi-naive, and generally uninformed POV. They may be able to regurgitate scripture, and have a rudimentary quickness about being able to contradict the basic party line of atheists and agnostics, but they never seem to be true to their religion in that kind, open, and really knowledgeable way that makes someone like me, who genuinely has questions that the party line won't carry.

I'm 100% with Shannon's take on it as represented, but Robert's more informative, genuine answer as the story went, condensed down to a way much easier for me to understand seems much more like it could very well be, and certainly carries out a lot of what I can see as Christian doctrine.

I can certainly understand and accept the concept that way, and ultimately, TO ME, I have to have a good reason to have faith.....I have reasons for my faith as it is, and part of that has a lot to do with rejecting the hard lines that have been conveyed to me over the years.

There will be those who give me that same old line about not tailoring religion to suit my needs and wants, but it's MY quest for God and spirituality the way I understand Him to be in my relationship with Him, and I don't really need someone else's validation for that.

Just the fact that it's taken me so long to be able to make this rudimentary distinction says an awful lot about my ability to make sense of what's offered up out there in the world.

And I pick this up on a photography site???????......8>)

Tamron 16-300mm Di II VC PZD MACRO w/Canon Nikon mount

05/17/2008 11:09:16 PM · #205

SO what came first, chicken or egg???

edited to add, this is actually a serious question, in teh begining of the world, which came first???

Message edited by author 2008-05-17 23:13:55.

05/17/2008 11:11:13 PM · #206

Originally posted by shutterpuppy:

This adjustment in the idea of original sin so that unbaptized infants and children are no longer summarily condemned to hell is simply one of numerous examples of how religion -- rather than being a guide in matters of moral concern as its adherents generally claim -- is at best a follower of the moral considerations of its followers, and typically more of a stumbling block to increased moral understanding and advancement.

Clear, clean, concise......thank you for this!

05/17/2008 11:13:35 PM · #207

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Isn't the fact that you can "divide" something predicated on the concept of a single God, a single Truth, a single path to salvation, proof in and of itself that there is no single Truth? Or that out of the 200 or so Christian secta, only one will be saved and the rest damned? Seems like it might be safer to stick with Judaism, where you have about a one out of three chance of practicing according to the right set of rules, or maybe Unitarian-Universalism where you can use 'em all ..

BUSTED!!!!

I'm a UU, and damn happy about it.

I'm fond of saying that UUs are the liberal Democrat wackos of the God biz.

And I CAN say that in my church.

05/17/2008 11:17:58 PM · #208

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Everybody, hopefully, has their own path. Assuredly, I myself do not seek grace through fear of damnation. I don't believe in hellfire. My only point is, the Book says we should strive for grace. Who can argue with that? Your path to grace may be different from mine, who knows, but the striving is what counts.

And IMNSHO, a state of grace has as much to do with what you bring from your heart as well as what you do......and that striving is what makes the journey worthwhile to me.

I really don't know where it takes me; like Robert, I don't believe the Hellfire either, and I don't necessarily think there's a set of wings and a cloud up there for me.....there could be.....or not.

But I am now striving to be the kind of man I believe God, as I understand him, wants me to be.

And that journey suits me just fine in its rewards right here.

Tokina AF 12-24mm f/4.0 AT-X Pro DX

05/17/2008 11:20:43 PM · #209

Originally posted by posthumous:

I personally believe that Jesus's sense of morality was closer to Louis's than to Christianity's. The reason he went to great pains to say everyone is sinful was just a call to humility and self-examination. He wanted people to live a carefully examined moral life. I think he'd be mortified to find out he's become a Get Out Of Hell Free card.

Yeah, that!

In my mind, unequivocally, I believe this.

As much as Louis makes me nuts some days........8>)

ETA: Okay, okay.......MORE nuts.

Message edited by author 2008-05-17 23:21:10.

milo655321

Nikon D70

05/17/2008 11:22:46 PM · #210

Originally posted by JulietNN:

SO what came first, chicken or egg???

edited to add, this is actually a serious question, in teh begining of the world, which came first???

Eggs. Birds are evolved from dinosaurs.

Tamron 16-300mm Di II VC PZD MACRO w/Canon Nikon mount

05/17/2008 11:24:18 PM · #211

But how did the egg come about, it had to be cooked in a tummy then laid and kept warm and nutured before it could become dependant by itself!

milo655321

Nikon D70

Tokina AF 12-24mm f/4.0 AT-X Pro DX

05/17/2008 11:26:48 PM · #212

Originally posted by JulietNN:

But how did the egg come about, it had to be cooked in a tummy then laid and kept warm and nutured before it could become dependant by itself!

You just asked which came first. You didn't ask how.

05/17/2008 11:32:00 PM · #213

Originally posted by farfel53:

Is that belief based on any fact, or is it just what you would like to think?

Isaiah chapter 53 tell you who He is, what He was to do, and why He came. Written several hundred years beforehand. Quite frankly, Isaiah described this man as a "Get out of Hell Free" card, as you say. Go read it and see, and base your beliefs on something other than fantasy and wishes.

It happened again.

You CANNOT do this and retain any credibility.

You CANNOT question someone's statement on a factual basis and offer up a prophecy as factual in the very next breath.

Even without Shannon firing out a half dozen examples where the guy turns out to be a looney, it merely means that he got it right......not a record of it how it went down as/after it happened.

You have no more right to claim it's factual than Shannon......and truth be told, as a reasonably well-read, intelligent man, I can buy Shannon's and Don's views a lot easier.

I just have too much trouble with the whole suspension of disbelief necessary to make so much of what's generally accepted as "The Way".

I don't believe that God wants me to use the brain He gave me just to keep the wind from whistling as it blows through my ears.

smardaz

05/17/2008 11:44:53 PM · #214

wow people are still talking about this? looks like the OP got what he wanted....

05/17/2008 11:48:24 PM · #215

Originally posted by farfel53:

Man, that sounded more like condescending and superior than sarcastic.

And the argument that went with it, that whole knowing Jesus, that just doesn't wash unless you know somehow that you have seen, spoken, or received guidance from him on a firsthand basis......that's kind of hard to swallow for the average intelligent person to stomach......especially when you act like you've got a better handle on that knowledge.

And you imply that YOU know "The Way" and that someone else who doesn't follow it, essentially doesn't know the right way.

Your inability to offer up your Jesus in a way that hasn't started to sound adversarial does more harm than good for your POV.

It's really weird, I more strongly believe in God at this point in my life than ever, I truly know in my head and my heart that He exists because of something He did, or more specifically said to me, but it means nothing to anyone else and it served to do nothing more than to make me look at my life, and the way I live, in order that I may be less of a self-centered asshole, and to be a better human being to my fellow man.

So the particulars of the religion, with all it's warts and quirks pretty much don't amount to much to me, but I will continue to try and understand what it's all about just as part of the journey I have left.

Talk about a freakin' test of faith! Sheesh!

Tamron 16-300mm Di II VC PZD MACRO w/Canon Nikon mount

05/17/2008 11:49:45 PM · #216

Originally posted by smardaz:

wow people are still talking about this? looks like the OP got what he wanted....

yeah,yeah but you know what, Not ONE of those people in the beginning who shoved and pushed into your face and shoved their beliefs and holier than thou thoughts , have even bothered to grace us with one iota of their infinite wisdom since some serious questioning came about.

Pathetic

edited to put in quote

Message edited by author 2008-05-17 23:50:30.

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

05/17/2008 11:52:08 PM · #217

Sorry to have gotten all introspective and wordy.

A friend of mine, six months younger than I, out of the blue, had a massive heart attack this morning and died......He was a good man and I will miss him.

Kinda makes me feel my own mortality and I just kinda got carried away.

Best to you all, be grateful for your family and friends, and take care.

We are only here for a short time.

ETA: Thanks ever so much to the folks here who have shed a lot of light on history and theology for me.

Message edited by author 2008-05-17 23:54:26.

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

05/17/2008 11:53:26 PM · #218

Originally posted by farfel53:

Originally posted by scalvert:
this is the same prophet who predicted a cockatrice and dragon (14:29), predicted the son of Mary would be named Immanuel (7:14), that Damascus would cease to be a city (17:1), and that the Nile would completely dry up (19:5). A veritable fountain of knowledge, eh? Shall we also accept as fact that God instructed Isaiah to wander around North Africa completely naked for three years (20:3)?
PS- Isaiah 53, which you seem to attribute to a prediction of Jesus, is written in past tense some 700+ years BC. :-/

Hmmmm...so foreshadowing is a valid literary technique for a murder mystery, but not for prophecy...I see. Allegory, alliteration, simile and symbolism can just be written off because they don't fit your idea of "prophecy".

Ah, FORESHADOWING! Silly me. I must admit... it's quite a feat for an 8th century BC author to have such a keen understanding of sophisticated literary devices. Can you recommend any good murder mysteries from that era? Eh, no matter. Per your suggestion, I shall assume that Damascus and the Nile are still scheduled to disappear any day now, that the cockatrice, fire breathing dragon and naming the son of the virgin "Immanuel" somehow fit into these categories (though I'm not sure which), and I sincerely hope the story of a prophet wandering around naked for 3 years is only symbolic or allegorical (despite the clear description of removing clothing). There is, of course, NO chance that you would be writing off plain declarations of fact that don't fit your idea of "prophecy" because your mind is made up. Right?

(I apologize for being somewhat sarcastic, too)

Message edited by author 2008-05-17 23:54:52.

JMart

Nikon D80

Tamron SP AF 90mm f/2.8 Di for Nikon

05/17/2008 11:55:21 PM · #219

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by farfel53:
Rather than pick a set of doctrines and "hope" you get the right one, why not ask God...

Contradiction alert. Again. Why not ask Buddha?

This, to me, is the most salient point in this debate. A cursory understanding of sociology and world religions demonstrates that people tend to become true believers of the religious doctrines that dominate the culture into which they are born. So, from a 'born-again' Christian perspective, the where & when of birth is the #1 criterion by which most of humanity will be sorted out for heaven or eternal damnation. Really, I don't know how fundamentalist type Christians (or any 'exclusive' religion) can be so callous as to believe in the literal damnation/eternal torment of bilions of humans throughout history. It's kind of thoughtless and sick actually. :/

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

05/18/2008 12:03:05 AM · #220

Originally posted by milo655321:

Originally posted by JulietNN:
SO what came first, chicken or egg???

Eggs. Birds are evolved from dinosaurs.

Holy cow!* That is so stunningly obvious that I can't believe I never heard it before. Awesome!

*Any implied connection to Hinduism is strictly coincidental.

Tamron 16-300mm Di II VC PZD MACRO w/Canon Nikon mount

05/18/2008 12:07:05 AM · #221

Whooooaaaa Down Scal,, LOLOLOL, you are cracking me up!!! Your a nut!!! It might have to do with that Puddy Cat suit!!!!

Message edited by author 2008-05-18 00:07:16.

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

05/18/2008 12:15:47 AM · #222

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

I am now striving to be the kind of man I believe God, as I understand him, wants me to be.

And that journey suits me just fine in its rewards right here.

If gods are the product of human imagination, then every god is indeed real and unique to every person (to whatever extent an idea can be real)... and such a personal journey, free of the antiquated moralities and imposed prejudices of organized religion, is perhaps the only kind deserving of the admiration each demands. Bon voyage!

mgsmith53

Pentax K-R

Pentax DA L 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 AL

05/18/2008 07:47:41 AM · #223

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I am now striving to be the kind of man I believe God, as I understand him, wants me to be.

And that journey suits me just fine in its rewards right here.

If gods are the product of human imagination, then every god is indeed real and unique to every person (to whatever extent an idea can be real)... and such a personal journey, free of the antiquated moralities and imposed prejudices of organized religion, is perhaps the only kind deserving of the admiration each demands. Bon voyage!

Exactly. If gods are the product of imagination you are absolutely correct. Happy Trails to You!

If, however, there is a "god" that exists outside of our imagination, who is, was, will be who "he" is regardless of what we imagine, think, say or do, we might be wise to find out about him and what he says to us and wants from us. That's all. That's what we're saying.

To answer somebody's question from earlier: we need to not confuse jealousy with envy.

In the context of God being a "jealous" God, He is only demanding what is rightfully His. "If" He IS the creator of the universe as He claims, looks to me like He would be correct to want us to keep our eyes of faith focused on Him, and not on a chunk of stone or hammered out piece of shiny dirt.

Envy, on the other hand, is wanting what belongs to somebody else. God can rightfully be jealous for our affection and allegience, and just as rightfully demand we not envy our neighbor, or "covet" what doesn't belong to us. Maybe that will clarify for some, and make this God seem a bit more consistent and less human in His "failing".

Peace.

05/18/2008 07:50:57 AM · #224

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

I am now striving to be the kind of man I believe God, as I understand him, wants me to be.

And that journey suits me just fine in its rewards right here.

Originally posted by scalvert:

Thank you, sir!

With your permission, I may use that as a tagline.

It took me a long time to come to my own personal journey, and once I finally got there, and became at ease with it, I became a lot more open, and interested in, what gives others comfort and solace.

There seems to be all too much fear from the "authorities" of organized religion that left to one's own quest, that their way might not become palatable.

And Robert's ideas on the worthiness to aspire to a state of grace is synonymous with much of how I feel.......and I really don't need someone shouting from a pulpit to tell me how to do it.''I have seen a lot of good done in the name of the church, and an awful lot of damage to the soul as well.

I guess the thing that troubles me so much is that some of that damage comes awfully close to the hurtful nature I would call sinful......and it's perpetrated in the name of God.

And that's just wrong.