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 04/19/2008 07:07:34 AM · #26
Originally posted by 777STAN:
Originally posted by rossbilly:
A friend of mine has a co-worker, and that person is incredibly... unusual. He has been in trouble with his employer numerous times, for things like sexual harassment / stalking, proselytizing incessantly, making a nuisance of himself repeatedly, and generally has a LOT of people very scared for there eventual safety. Everyone recognizes that he is a serious liability, but no one is courageous enough to fire him for fear of retribution.

I've talked to the guy on several occasions, due to my own dealings with the company.

Your posts scare me more than he ever could.


GOOD! I hope I scare YOU (and others) out of Hell! Your words indicate that you think that I am a personal threat which is proof that YOU are the one who is eternally deluded...SAD! :(


Eternally deluded. lol

I have faith that people like YOU Stan will help us non-believers stamp out this DISEASE you call religion. YOU'RE helping the ones you are pointing the finger at and please please please DO NOT STOP. Just keep on doing what YOU'RE doing. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU. You are our greatest ally.
 04/19/2008 08:06:07 AM · #27
You're welcome, Jac! I promise to do so without need for the request! However, you are sadly "peeing into the wind," if you think that you will ever rid the world of religion, since there are still more believers in some kind of a god than believers in no god at all.

If I helps your research in any way, then be aware that the God I serve is so honest, He has already predicted that your side will win in the near-future, and I will have to wait awhile to be on the side of ultimate victory.

(Which even this "plays right into your hands." You can say, "Yeah, Stan, it's easy to say that you will have ultimate victory, but you can't prove it!" You're right! Wouldn't if I could, because Faith requires no proof, and Unbelief accepts none!)

This world is ripe for the ultimate strong leader who has been predicted and will come! (I'm telling you this now, so that you will remember my words when it happens,...because I will be gone by then...or soon after he walks out on "the world's stage.")

More honesty from the LORD (or more humor...You Pick,) in order for this guy to be a world-class leader in such a fragmented world, God has promised to send you "a strong delusion that you would believe a lie." Modern atheists are great evidence that some of that promise is already in force.

Soon (time frame unknown) I will not be a problem for you, this will be a world in which atheists finally feel comfortable...for a little while, and all the world's religions will somehow be no threat to you nor each other. (This is one minute & unique place where we might slightly agree,...the last phrase of the previous sentence is something that is still hard for me to put my thoughts around, even though I am sure it will happen.)

There you have it! My belief system predicts that yours will win, and that I will be out-of-your-hair! What a deal!

(O, BTW! If you will check out world history and even the recycled plots of Hollywood movies, then you will be reminded that consistently excellent stories that keep us "on the edges of our seats" in suspense are the ones in which the hero appears to be in peril until ultimate victory.)
 04/19/2008 08:20:14 AM · #28
Originally posted by 777STAN:
When I came here I was way too obsequious, THAT, also, has been corrected!

Should I leave this alone?????? LOL!!!
 04/19/2008 08:24:11 AM · #29
I find you to be provocative and intelligent, yet I'm curious as to why you would open yourself to the guaranteed level of abuse that an opener like yours would bring to you.

I've been around you tangentially and haven't noticed any tendency really to babble incoherently, in fact, I've had a couple of thoughtful and insightful comments on images from you, yet you almost seem to have tossed yourself into the arena for the lions to worry you until they're bored.

What's up with that????

ETA: As to your original premise.......I've now met about 40 DPC members, and GASP!!!!!

They're for real!!!!

Message edited by author 2008-04-19 08:25:10.
 04/19/2008 12:49:13 PM · #30
NikonJeb, I hope you read my explanation of the original post, Dateline: "04/17/2008 06:16:49 PM."

You make a good point, "Why do I intentionally throw myself into the den of lions?" The short answer is that there are some aspects of the human experience that are more important than self-preservation!

(From this point on in the post, the word, YOU, is usually universal, not specific to you, NikonJeb.)

If there is no God, then my words are meaningless as are the instances of anger that they engender. If I believe in a god who doesn't exist, then my words can't hurt anyone. Why get upset then?

Certain groups of people believe in things every day that doesn't affect anybody else but themselves, and we let them go on in their ignorant bliss,...No Sweat! (Remember the Chicago Cubs enter the season every year hoping for a World Series win...just like every other team! Some may snicker, but they still have fans! Right?)

What adult would not instinctively chase after a child who was in danger of being hit by a car? The adult could be maimed or killed, but they consider the child more valuable than their own life!

Why do fire-fighters run into burning buildings every day to try to save people they don't know? Because there is a consistent compassion in the hearts of humans that (at least in my mind) proves that we were created in the image of God Who is the epitome of ultimate compassion.

Why do humans half-way around the globe send money, supplies, and even themselves to help Tsunami victims who can never pay back the benefactors whom they may never meet. On top of that the benefactors would never want to be paid back because they consider the privilege of helping someone else who is less fortunate to be a return greater than their investment.

Why do I talk about Jesus, Heaven and Hell with people who consistently try to "eat me alive?"

Well, if it is as these would say, a meaningless gesture, then I am merely "beating the wind" and hurting no one else, unless my detractors choose to take my words to heart and give meaning to something that had no inherent meaning...

If, however, I see valuable human lives running "head-long" into a burning eternity because their perspective of their own cases is skewed in some way like the child, the people in the burning building, and the tsunami victims, being either unaware of the devastating danger or the ability to help themselves, then YES I will chase after, dive into, battle lions, snakes, piranha, or write millions of words in hopes of helping one soul to have a better eternity than he or she would have had if I had done nothing!

I am NOTHING! Jesus is EVERYTHING! I will not live forever in this body as it presently is! Therefore, I can't hold anything back in reserve!

We have broadcast PSA's that say, "Friends don't let friends drive drunk!" Even though I know that I am opening myself up to being shredded by quips about "writing drunk," I still have to make this point...

Drinking alcohol impairs the judgment, the reflexes, the vision...in a word,...

"Drunk Driving is dangerous because the Drunk Driver no longer has the ability to see accurately, react quickly, nor think clearly enough to protect themselves and their passengers nor other humans in other vehicles from the danger and potential death that is inherent in the discipline of driving!"

Yet, they are very often rude, belligerent, and caustic in every unmentionable way to friends (or even strangers,...often law enforcement) whose every motivation is altruistic for one impaired human being and the danger they pose to themselves and others.

Sadly, I already know that my detractors believe that they need to protect others from persons, like me, for the same reasons, and if I was in your shoes, I know that I would be doing the same thing!

I have never questioned your motivations. I have never questioned your logic, nor your ability to use it. I hope that others will choose to see these same good points about me, but I won't hold my breath.

Bottom Line? Faith, motivation, and logic are all dependent on the raw materials and tools available in a person's all-encompassing view of the world. To see momentarily through your eyes, I have to lay down the tools of my world view and take up the tools of yours. So, in my fumbling, stammering, foolish-looking way because of doing something not normal for me, I am trying to speak to people diametrically opposed to me the truth that "I value your life enough to risk my own, even when you believe that the risk is unnecessary."

(I have said many of these things before, often in exactly the same way...because from the depths of my heart and my compassion...there is no other message!)

Message edited by author 2008-04-19 12:58:03.
 04/19/2008 01:08:45 PM · #31
Originally posted by 777STAN:
(I have said many of these things before, often in exactly the same way...

So have believers of Zeus, Odin, Osirus and a thousand other mythological beings, with equal conviction and equal basis in reality.
 04/19/2008 04:01:40 PM · #32
Originally posted by 777STAN:


If there is no God, then my words are meaningless as are the instances of anger that they engender. If I believe in a god who doesn't exist, then my words can't hurt anyone. Why get upset then?

Certain groups of people believe in things every day that doesn't affect anybody else but themselves, and we let them go on in their ignorant bliss,...No Sweat!



To say that a deity based belief system is harmless is disingenuous at best. Once you subscribe to a certain religion there is an unavoidable element of self-righteousness. This self-righteousness is apparent is nearly every one of your posts.

Ever since there's been "one true God" people have been killing in His name. Every army that ever went into battle has believed God was on their side. People fly full airplanes into buildings based on words in a "holy" book. People claim a legal right to lands based on promises made in "holy" books. Countries have invaded and occupied other countries with justification based on words in "holy" books. People kill over your so called "words" that can't hurt anyone. And they've done so for thousands of years

So, please, don't try to tell us that religion is harmless. History doesn't back you up.

And for the record, I am a practicing Catholic, so I'm not someone trying to prove that God exists or doesn't exist.

I love Christianity, but self-aggrandizing Christians piss me off.

04/19/2008 07:24:56 PM · #33
Originally posted by 777STAN:
Why do I talk about Jesus, Heaven and Hell with people who consistently try to "eat me alive?" .... If, however, I see valuable human lives running "head-long" into a burning eternity because their perspective of their own cases is skewed in some way like the child....

Stan, your religious mania aside, it is difficult for me to believe that you cannot understand how offensive this position is. Nobody has any quarrel with your right to believe as you choose, and you must feel free to practice your religion as you see fit. But berating people in this fashion through proselytization is wrong. Belittling them, and reducing their perspective, achieved through a lifetime of thoughtful consideration, to fire-and-brimstone punishments and comparison to ignorant children, is even worse. You should apologize.

There are countless arguments that can be made to demonstrate how belief in any single religion is absurd. Your case in particular begs to be deconstructed, to show how easily anything you say can be dismissed. Despite your behavour, nobody is treating you in kind, however. You should appreciate that.

When someone tells you that they are atheist, or of some other belief, your response should not be to regurgitate articles of your faith in order to cause as much offense as possible. Instead, you should have the courtesy to leave those indivduals out of your system of belief, instead of dragging them along for the ride, telling them that they are to be eternally tortured because they don't believe like you, or telling them that they are nothing but mindless children. Have you no compassion for people and their ideas? Don't you think that people's philosophical outlooks are as valid as anyone else's? Don't you think that it takes a lifetime of thoughtfulness for people to come to the conclusions about the universe that they have? You should be more respectful.
 04/20/2008 12:46:23 PM · #34
[thumb]671163[/thumb] fear man...
 04/22/2008 02:10:23 AM · #35
Louis, I submit to you that being anti-religious is often just as manic and just as fire-breathing. I believe that you are a generally good man who has arrived at your position with great difficulty just as I have. That's why I have taken so much time to respond... Whether it appears or not, I am always interested in demonstrating eloquence and scholastic competence, but I hope you will agree that the definition of both is determined more by the receiver than by the sender.

I present the following Q & A from Answers in Genesis, a ministry with which I agree. It includes the message that I wish to respond to you, and is well-spoken IMO. (Remember, if I must view The Origin of The Species by Charles Darwin as the work of intellect not philosophy, then the same must be attributed to the Bible. You said it yourself, "...Belief in any single religion is absurd," and since it is commonly believed that "all religions are merely the thoughts of some man about the things that he values the most," then I would submit to you that belief in Origin is riskier than belief in The Bible. One man wrote Origin. Many men penned The Bible. Darwin's beliefs constitute a "unique value system" which is the general definition of religion, therefore "...belief in any single religion is absurd"...if you believe THAT way, which, of course, I don't.)

Link to the Following in its Original Location

"Agnostic asks whether biblical Christians commit circular reasoning: role of axioms, internal consistency and real world application
Hi,

I̢۪d like to state first of all that I mean no offence, and ask this purely in the spirit of enquiry, as an agnostic and a philosopher.

I respect your views as far as you hold them, and that despite evidence to the contrary you have held firm to your beliefs—that is commendable, and respectable.

However, I have long been taught throughout my school-life the virtue of science, and the ‘big-bang theory’, evolution and so on.

Having read through your website, I can see that you have well thought-out arguments, backed up with evidence and study, which could easily hold up for some time against long-held theories. On the other hand, I notice that many of your theories are backed up by nothing more than the word of the bible.

I̢۪m not denying that the bible is an excellent book, nor that it MAY BE the word of God, but I will question one tenet:

That the Bible MUST BE the word of God, BECAUSE IT SAYS SO.

Now, consider me heretic, but it strikes me that this is a ridiculous line of thought to take? If I were to say that my face was made of cucumber, and I̢۪m four hundred years old, would that make it so simply because I said so?

I̢۪m not entirely convinced that it would.

All in all though, fair play to you, you̢۪re doing some good work there
-
I always have to favour the underdog in any debate!

Be happy, and God̢۪s love on you,

Joe Payne
UK

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi,

I̢۪d like to state first of all that I mean no offence, and ask this purely in the spirit of enquiry, as an agnostic and a philosopher.

Thanks. I will try to answer in the same spirit. I will say though that many of the answers you seek are already on our website, as will be shown below.

I respect your views as far as you hold them, and that despite evidence to the contrary you have held firm to your beliefs—that is commendable, and respectable.
However, there is a worldview in what you say whether you are conscious of it or not. That is: you have accepted what is known as the fact-value distinction, although many philosophers reject it on for the cogent reason that no good demarcation criterion has been proposed.

Proponents of this distinction place Christian beliefs in the realm of ‘values’, i.e. mere personal beliefs that have no connection with reality. There are less scrupulous people than you who will say the same sort of things, that they ‘respect’ Christianity, but at a frightful cost of dismissing Christian ideas from any rational discussion.

However, Christianity is a system of Total Truth (the title of a new book on these issues by Nancy Pearcey). It makes objective claims about the world, including its history and about absolute right and wrong. See this refutation of Stephen Jay Gould and NOMA (nonoverlapping magisteria) for some examples.

Actually, many Christians have likewise accepted the fact-value distinction, including Dr Batten in his younger days as he confesses (note the diagram) which he wants people to avoid.

However, I have long been taught throughout my school-life the virtue of science, and the ‘big-bang theory’, evolution and so on.
Did they also teach you about the many cosmogonists skeptical of the big bang because of the ad hoc unobservable entities required to prop up the theory, e.g. hypothetical inflation field, dark matter and energy, as well as adjustable parameters to bring the theory into line? See Secular scientists blast the big bang.

Or did they teach you the many chemical hurdles of chemical evolution required before nonliving chemicals can form even a simple living cell? See Q&A: Origin of Life. I also have to wonder whether their ‘evidence’ for evolution was mere change, as atheistic New Zealand journalist Bob Brockie did (see refutation).

Having read through your website, I can see that you have well thought-out arguments, backed up with evidence and study, which could easily hold up for some time against long-held theories. On the other hand, I notice that many of your theories are backed up by nothing more than the word of the bible.
Since the creation/evolution issue is about history, we do what the best historians do—go to eyewitness accounts. That is what the Bible is.

I̢۪m not denying that the bible is an excellent book, nor that it MAY BE the word of God, but I will question one tenet:

That the Bible MUST BE the word of God, BECAUSE IT SAYS SO.

Then I have to ask you, why do you think it is an excellent book? If it claims to be written by God (and it does many times), then if this claim is false, the Bible would be a fraudulent or delusional book. This is parallel to C.S. Lewis’s famous Trilemma argument: Jesus claimed to be God, so either this is true or false; if true, then worship Him! But if false, then he is either deliberately lying, or is hopelessly deluded, worse than the man who thinks that he is a baked potato. One option He just does not logically allow is ‘he was just a very great teacher’. The same is true of the Bible.

Now, consider me heretic, but it strikes me that this is a ridiculous line of thought to take? If I were to say that my face was made of cucumber, and I̢۪m four hundred years old, would that make it so simply because I said so?

I̢۪m not entirely convinced that it would.

No, but this is not our argument. Rather, it would be worth seeing this answer to the charge of circular reasoning. For one thing, the circle is easily broken; for another, the alleged circular reasoning is to show the self-consistency of our chosen axioms—the propositions of Scripture. All philosophical systems start with axioms (presuppositions), or unprovable propositions accepted as true, and deduce theorems from them. Therefore Christians should not be faulted for having axioms, as explained in Creation: ‘where’s the proof?’

So the question for any axiomatic system is whether it is self-consistent and is consistent with the real world. The self-consistency is explained above, and as will be seen, Christian axioms provide the basis for a coherent worldview, i.e. a thought map that can guide us throughout all aspects of life.

I have been following the recent barrage of editorials / articles, against the creation museum and those who believe in a young Earth creation account, from various newspapers and magazines [New York Times, Time, USA Today, UK’s Sunday Telegraph, etc.] with great interest. It can only mean one thing, you have opened a wound in the evolutionary worldview and a little salt Matthew 5:13 has got in. Though I knew it already, this just proves to me even more that the creation / evolution issue is on the frontlines in the battle to repair the Biblical foundation that has been so neglected for the last 100 plus years since the church allowed the teachings of men like Darwin and Lyell to so influence them that they became willingly ignorant [2 Peter 3:5–6] of the truth.

What is sad is that those who write these editorials, in a false sense of wisdom, do not realize the folly of the their words [1 Corinthians 3:19]. As Paul said in 2 Corinthians 4:4, they have been blinded by the god of this world and are not able to see the truth. Now more than ever the importance of completing the creation museum as quickly as possible is evident. Traditional evangelistic methods will not reach such people as write, or approve of, these articles; but through much pray and consistently presenting the truth of the Creator God of the Bible their hearts can be turned. We must continue to faithfully rebuild the foundation so we may be called the repairer of the breach and the restorer of the paths[Isaiah 58:12]. My prayers and support will continue for you!

In Christ,
Troy Ancona
USA

Non-Christian axioms fail these tests. E.g. science requires certain premises to work, and they are deductions from biblical axioms, as shown in this response, while atheism does not provide this justification from within its own framework. Also, atheism must postulate certain unprovable beliefs that go against observable science, as shown in this reply to an atheist.

Also, the Christian axioms provide a basis for objective morality. Please understand what I am saying here—not that atheists can’t be moral but that they have no objective basis for this morality from within their own system, as explained in this response. The fanatical atheistic evolutionist Dawkins admits that our ‘best impulses have no basis in nature.’ So Dawkins makes a leap of faith to say that we should be ‘anti-Darwinian when it comes to morality’, that we should ‘rebel’ against our selfish genes, etc. But his own philosophy can’t justify the ‘shoulds’.

Christian axioms also provide a basis for voluntary choice, since we are made in the image of God (Genesis 1:26–27). But evolutionists believe that we are just machines and that our thoughts are really motions of atoms in our brains, which are just ‘computers made of meat’. But then they realize that we can’t function in the everyday world like this. Science is supposed to be about predictability, yet an evolutionist can far more easily predict behavior if he treats his wife as a free agent with desires and dislikes. For example, if he brings her flowers, then he will make her happy, i.e. for all practical purposes, his wife is a free agent who likes flowers. Nothing is gained in the practical world by treating her as an automaton with certain olfactory responses programmed by genes that in turn produce certain brain chemistry. So they claim that free will is a ‘useful illusion’.

We must also wonder why atheists call themselves ‘free-thinkers’ if they believe thoughts are the results of atomic motion in the brain obeying the fixed laws of chemistry. By their own philosophy, they can’t help what they believe!

Also, it is amusing that evolutionists believe that other people̢۪s ideas (e.g. religion and morality) are explained by evolution, and thus can be dismissed as not based in reality. Right, so what evolutionary process explained their evolutionary ideas, and can we similarly dismiss them as explained away? Perhaps there is a gene that evolved to makes them believe that behaviors are controlled by evolved genes? See also this response to an evolutionist who was hoist by his own petard.

All in all though, fair play to you, you̢۪re doing some good work there
-
I always have to favour the underdog in any debate!
Thanks. But even better to favour the truth, though. Underdogs aren̢۪t always right, e.g. Holocaust deniers, but thank you for the kind thoughts.

Be happy, and God̢۪s love on you.

Joe Payne
UK

You too, and I hope that you will one day ‘love God with all your mind.’

Jonathan Sarfati, Ph.D.
Brisbane, Australia"


04/22/2008 10:03:57 AM · #36
Sorry, too far apart to have a meaningful conversation any longer. Best of luck.
 04/22/2008 10:13:26 AM · #37
I find Stan's posts to be entertaining.

Mostly in the way I found Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker entertaining.
 04/22/2008 10:27:18 AM · #38
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by 777STAN:
Why do I talk about Jesus, Heaven and Hell with people who consistently try to "eat me alive?" .... If, however, I see valuable human lives running "head-long" into a burning eternity because their perspective of their own cases is skewed in some way like the child....

Stan, your religious mania aside, it is difficult for me to believe that you cannot understand how offensive this position is. Nobody has any quarrel with your right to believe as you choose, and you must feel free to practice your religion as you see fit. But berating people in this fashion through proselytization is wrong. Belittling them, and reducing their perspective, achieved through a lifetime of thoughtful consideration, to fire-and-brimstone punishments and comparison to ignorant children, is even worse. You should apologize.

There are countless arguments that can be made to demonstrate how belief in any single religion is absurd. Your case in particular begs to be deconstructed, to show how easily anything you say can be dismissed. Despite your behavour, nobody is treating you in kind, however. You should appreciate that.

When someone tells you that they are atheist, or of some other belief, your response should not be to regurgitate articles of your faith in order to cause as much offense as possible. Instead, you should have the courtesy to leave those indivduals out of your system of belief, instead of dragging them along for the ride, telling them that they are to be eternally tortured because they don't believe like you, or telling them that they are nothing but mindless children. Have you no compassion for people and their ideas? Don't you think that people's philosophical outlooks are as valid as anyone else's? Don't you think that it takes a lifetime of thoughtfulness for people to come to the conclusions about the universe that they have? You should be more respectful.


Stan, listen to Louis. HEAR what he is saying.

He is explaining to you, point blank, why the tactic you (and many of the Christians I associate with on a daily basis) are using will not work with many of today's humanists/atheists/agnostics/intellectuals, and other people groups that have generally been alienated from Christianity.



04/22/2008 10:30:39 AM · #39
Originally posted by karmat:
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by 777STAN:
Why do I talk about Jesus, Heaven and Hell with people who consistently try to "eat me alive?" .... If, however, I see valuable human lives running "head-long" into a burning eternity because their perspective of their own cases is skewed in some way like the child....

Stan, your religious mania aside, it is difficult for me to believe that you cannot understand how offensive this position is. Nobody has any quarrel with your right to believe as you choose, and you must feel free to practice your religion as you see fit. But berating people in this fashion through proselytization is wrong. Belittling them, and reducing their perspective, achieved through a lifetime of thoughtful consideration, to fire-and-brimstone punishments and comparison to ignorant children, is even worse. You should apologize.

There are countless arguments that can be made to demonstrate how belief in any single religion is absurd. Your case in particular begs to be deconstructed, to show how easily anything you say can be dismissed. Despite your behavour, nobody is treating you in kind, however. You should appreciate that.

When someone tells you that they are atheist, or of some other belief, your response should not be to regurgitate articles of your faith in order to cause as much offense as possible. Instead, you should have the courtesy to leave those indivduals out of your system of belief, instead of dragging them along for the ride, telling them that they are to be eternally tortured because they don't believe like you, or telling them that they are nothing but mindless children. Have you no compassion for people and their ideas? Don't you think that people's philosophical outlooks are as valid as anyone else's? Don't you think that it takes a lifetime of thoughtfulness for people to come to the conclusions about the universe that they have? You should be more respectful.


Stan, listen to Louis. HEAR what he is saying.

He is explaining to you, point blank, why the tactic you (and many of the Christians I associate with on a daily basis) are using will not work with many of today's humanists/atheists/agnostics/intellectuals, and other people groups that have generally been alienated from Christianity.


The ability to take a reasoned argument and tune it out so that it sounds like Charlie Brown's parents seems to be an essential quality for proselytizing.
 04/22/2008 10:37:48 AM · #40
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

The ability to take a reasoned argument and tune it out so that it sounds like Charlie Brown's parents seems to be an essential quality for proselytizing.


:( Sad, but true.

I think one of the major limitations of Christians is that we are not taught to discuss and explore to validate and strengthen our beliefs. Here in the Southern Appalachians, especially, we are taught to listen and believe the preacher. Fortunately, that is beginning to change -- to the chagrin of some pastors and the delight of others.

I mentioned in another thread about the book "I'm Fin with God, It's Christians I Can't Stand." Stan, and others who are Christians (non-Christians *might* like it, I don't know, but it was written to Christians), should read through it objectively. You may not agree with everything they say (I didn't), but it really helped me in pointing me where to study to define and defend my beliefs, and how to maybe share them a bit more effectively in a post-modern world.

Now, having said that, I'm ignoring this thread from here on. I've given my information and opinions. Any further questions will gladly be answered privately.
 04/23/2008 05:36:07 PM · #41
With honor to the Lady, Ms. Karmat, I accept the fact that the LORD speaks through us Christians often in gentle, seeker-sensitive ways!

However, there is precedence for not always using the soft approach.

1. The LORD slapped Saul/Apostle Paul flat of his back on the Road to Damascus, and said, "Yo, Big Boy! Why are you trying to hurt me?" (my paraphrase, Acts, chapter 9.)
2. John Newton (writer of the song, "Amazing Grace") was the captain of a slave ship off the coast of Africa when the LORD rocked his world in a storm, throwing him into the waves, and was literally saved from drowning when his men (who hated him) harpooned him through the thigh and yanked him back up on the ship. He was truly a changed man!
3. Jim Elliot, Nate Saint, and three other missionaries were on the other side of this Grace that the LORD will NOT keep silent. They all died at the end of Auca spears on January 8, 1956 before even one of the natives heard the message of Jesus and became a Christian, but many came to Christ in the trail of blood. (Reference: The movie, End of The Spear.)
4. The persecution and murder of Christians still goes on in China to this day. The Christian message is flourishing amid travail because there they know that this world is not our Home! (Reference: Voice of the Martyrs website.)

Since Eternity doesn't end and Heaven and Hell are Real, I am tired of "loving people" to Hell! It's time for Christians to stand up and scream, "Wake Up! Wake Up! Wake up!" This alienating business is their fault, not mine! There is too much at stake!

The Wake Up Call is to the Christians as well as the lost!

Message edited by author 2008-04-23 17:37:27.
 04/23/2008 06:01:40 PM · #42
see, THAT is the shit that scares me...

you really expect people to flock to your brand of religion when you act like that?
 04/23/2008 06:05:49 PM · #43
Originally posted by 777STAN:
Since Eternity doesn't end and Heaven and Hell are Real, I am tired of "loving people" to Hell! It's time for Christians to stand up and scream, "Wake Up! Wake Up! Wake up!" This alienating business is their fault, not mine! There is too much at stake!


Speaking now as someone who has a degree in biblical study, several years in actual ministry and has traveled all over the globe for missions (not something I state lightly, but to give a base to what I'm about to say next), I say this

If you're tired of 'loving people' to hell, the try loving them to Heaven! yo've sited several examples of God getting into peoples face to make His point (and ther is no doubt that for some that is the way He must reach them) ther are many, many more examples of Jesus coming in Living His life (which encluded miricles) and simply saying 'follow me'. the thrust of my point here is that 9 times out of 10 you will catch more bees with honey than with vinager, and I have seen this borne out time and time again in my ministry and missions.

Sometimes the best alarm clock isnt' the one that 'screams wakeup' but the one the quietly and constantly reminds you that you've been asleep and it's time to open your eyes.

04/23/2008 06:21:47 PM · #44
Nicely said, Michael. The other approach makes me think of Marcia Gay Harden's character in "The Mist."

Didn't Jesus say something about people should go into a closet to pray and not make a show of their piety? One of the reasons I'm so turned off by contemporary Christianity (besides the dreadful new music), is all that hand-waving!

04/23/2008 07:19:28 PM · #45
Originally posted by 777STAN:
Since Eternity doesn't end and Heaven and Hell are Real, I am tired of "loving people" to Hell! It's time for Christians to stand up and scream, "Wake Up! Wake Up! Wake up!" This alienating business is their fault, not mine! There is too much at stake!

The Wake Up Call is to the Christians as well as the lost!


So - metaphorically speaking - the man with the 2000 year old map thinks that the people with the GPS system are lost. Interesting.

Isn't it the satisfaction of knowing that myself and all my fellow unbelievers are going to hell enough for you?
 04/24/2008 02:05:06 PM · #46
Originally posted by shutterpuppy:
Originally posted by 777STAN:
Since Eternity doesn't end and Heaven and Hell are Real, I am tired of "loving people" to Hell! It's time for Christians to stand up and scream, "Wake Up! Wake Up! Wake up!" This alienating business is their fault, not mine! There is too much at stake!

The Wake Up Call is to the Christians as well as the lost!


So - metaphorically speaking - the man with the 2000 year old map thinks that the people with the GPS system are lost. Interesting.

Isn't it the satisfaction of knowing that myself and all my fellow unbelievers are going to hell enough for you?


In a word? NO! It is the fact that I hate for anybody to go to Hell that I plead with them for the sake of their own souls. Though the LORD Himself has a bad reputation in this department, the Truth is far different that has been apparently reported by many.

Ezekiel 33:11-12, KJV, "11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

12Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth."

The Truth works on both sides of this issue. Unbelievers may laugh at the possibility of "Going to Hell!" but many church-members are no safer so far as their eternal destination. Merely joining a church does not make one a Christian! A human being cannot birth himself nor herself spiritually any more than they could physically. Spiritual birth requires the work of the Holy Spirit, the spiritual obstetrician. I have met just as many lost Baptists as lost Catholics. (That's not my judgment! That was their own admission...because they told me after they became Christians.)

Eternity's values are all that matter! Therefore, by those standards, I care more for your soul than you do...apparently! For your modern GPS is nothing but trash next to the LORD's ability to locate you instantaneously.

O, and for that matter thanks for bringing up the matter of the reliability of something that has been around for 2000 years. Apparently, modern Man considers 2000 years to be a long time! However, if we give a momentary "tip-of-the-hat" to evolution, by your own admission, Man has allegedly been around for millions of years...which makes your citation of 2000 years as a mere "yesterday." This, too, is in agreement with the Bible...

II Peter 3:7-9, KJV, "7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Bottom Line: The LORD has the right to be believed for something His closest Earthly allies and co-laborers wrote about Him "a couple days ago," just like you would expect the judge and the jury in a modern court of law to believe about you, if all your friends stood up to testify on your behalf as a character witness and in order to validate your words.

You don't believe Him because you don't believe by choice and by inability, not because the facts are inadequate!

Now, Finally, to address the christians on this website who apparently believe that my "in-your-face-approach" is both ineffective and inappropriate, Let's "Play it your way for awhile!" You "love atheists into Heaven," if you can, and I'll sit this out and watch! Yet, while I do, I call God as my witness that I've held nothing back in preaching to people who need salvation.

I, also, call God to put the responsibility for their blood...on YOUR account!

I close my final post to this thread with a poem by my favorite poet (and have included a link to its original post.) O, please enjoy yourselves accusing me from verse #1, but be aware that refusal to agree with popular opinion is not the same thing as refusing to see the Truth!

Time Is a Responsibility!

To bless the world of Humankind,
there is a Truth that we all find,
There is none sadder, nor more blind,
Than those who will not see!

When Jesus came to walk the Earth,
to bring to Man Perfection's Worth,
That through Death's Womb bring forth New Birth,
Alive we'd ever be!

Now, when he calls we must respond,
for we've no life to build upon,
Salvation's His to break our bonds,
This Lamb bore all for me!

He calls for none would know to come,
for we are dead without the Son,
And when we come the Vict'ry's won,
He saves! No hidden fees!

As saved I have but one task more,
to tell of Grace and all implore,
That many would be saved before,
They leave eternally!

The lost will hear our words that bless,
accusing us of blatant curse,
But bless them still and urge the press,
"Receive Salvation's Key!"

The bulk of souls will go to Hell,
though we do daily ceaseless tell,
The choice they make won't do them well,
but of their blood we're FREE!

by Jay O'Toole

Message edited by author 2008-04-25 22:22:13.
 04/24/2008 02:11:31 PM · #47
What if another person is in your surroundings? Do you have total control of that? A car? A cricket? A migraine?

Originally posted by Jac:

Your god doesn't call my shots. I, as a human being who is in total control of his surroundings and his existence call the shots. I am the man, just as you are. You're being manipulated by ghosts from 2,000 years ago. Let go man....let go...
04/24/2008 02:24:47 PM · #48
To generalize Christians in this way might not be fair - Many sects of Christianity have an open door for cynics and non-believers and encourage self exploration as well as civic duties toward secular peoples.

And why ignore this thread if you feel the need to explore and validate your beliefs? Just a thought.

Originally posted by karmat:
I think one of the major limitations of Christians is that we are not taught to discuss and explore to validate and strengthen our beliefs.

...

Now, having said that, I'm ignoring this thread from here on. I've given my information and opinions. Any further questions will gladly be answered privately.
04/24/2008 02:25:00 PM · #49
Originally posted by 777STAN:
I close my intended final post to this thread with a poem


Somehow, I truly do NOT get the impression that you have the fortitude for really make this "Your Final Post", but I could be mistaken.

Let's wait and see.

Ray
 04/24/2008 02:33:06 PM · #50
He voiced his existential and philosophical dilemmas here and was the subject of a group attempting a beat-down.
Just because people don't agree or understand doesn't mean he's weak.
The opposite is probably true.
Give the guy a break.

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Somehow, I truly do NOT get the impression that you have the fortitude for really make this "Your Final Post", but I could be mistaken.

Let's wait and see.

Ray
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