| Author | Thread |
|
|
04/15/2008 09:13:19 PM · #1 |
I usually send to the trash the stuff my mom sends me. She is a 60 something women, and loves the internet, and gadgets of all sorts.
Anyway, she sends me stuff I would never send to anyone because of the potential to piss someone off, or the potential of a virus, or worm.
She sent me this today, maybe some of you'se guy'ze have seen this before.
Anyway, it kind of hit what we as Americans are going through.
I can not answer for every other country out there but mine.
Well, check it out.
What a difference 30 years makes.
1977 Vs. 2007 in school....
Scenario: Jack goes quail hunting before school, pulls into school parking lot with shotgun in gun rack.
1977 - Vice principal comes over to look at Jack's shotgun. He goes to his car and gets his shotgun to show Jack.
2007 - School goes into lock down, and FBI is called. Jack is hauled off to jail and never sees his truck or gun again. Counselors called in for traumatized students and teachers.
Scenario: Johnny and Mark get into a fistfight after school.
1977 - Crowd gathers. Mark wins. Johnny and Mark shake hands and end up best friends.
2007 - Police called. SWAT team arrives. Johnny and Mark are arrested and charged with assault. Both are expelled even though Johnny started it.
Scenario: Jeffrey will not be still in class, disrupts other students.
1977 - Jeffrey is sent to office and given a good paddling by the principal. He returns to class, sits still, and does not disrupt class again.
2007 - Jeffrey is diagnosed with ADD and given huge doses of Ritalin; becomes a zombie. School gets extra money from state because Jeffrey has a learning disability.
Scenario: Billy breaks a window in a neighbors car and his Dad gives him a whipping with his belt.
1977 - Billy is more careful next time, grows up normal, goes to college, and becomes a successful businessman.
2007 - Billy's dad is arrested for child abuse. Billy is placed in foster care and joins a gang. State psychologist convinces Billy's sister that she remembers being abused herself, and their dad goes to prison. Billy's mom has affair with psychologist.
Scenario: Mark gets a headache and takes some aspirin to school.
1977 - Mark shares aspirin with principal out on the smoking dock.
2007 - Police called. Mark is expelled from school for drug violations. Car is searched for drugs and weapons.
Scenario: Pedro fails high school English.
1977 - Pedro goes to summer school, passes English, goes to college, and graduates.
2007 - Pedro's cause is taken up by state. Newspaper articles appear nationally explaining that teaching English as a requirement for graduation is racist. ACLU files class action lawsuit against state school system and Pedro's English teacher. English banned from core curriculum. Pedro is given a diploma anyway but ends up mowing lawns for a living because he cannot speak English.
Scenario: Johnny takes apart leftover firecrackers from 4th of July, puts them in a model airplane paint bottle, and blows up a red ant bed.
1977 - Ants die.
2007 - Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, Homeland Security, and FBI called Johnny is charged with domestic terrorism. The FBI investigates parents; siblings are removed from home; computers confiscated. Johnny's dad goes on a terror watch list and is never allowed to fly again
Scenario: Johnny falls while running during recess and scrapes his knee. He is found crying by his teacher, Heather. Heather hugs him to comfort him.
1977 - In a short time, Johnny feels better and goes on playing.
2007 - Heather is accused of being a sexual predator and loses her job. She faces three years in state prison. Johnny undergoes five years of therapy.
|
|
|
|
04/15/2008 09:18:12 PM · #2 |
| I'm glad I grew up under the old system... there is something to be said about "the good old days" |
|
|
|
04/15/2008 09:20:11 PM · #3 |
Originally posted by pennyj1957:
I'm glad I grew up under the old system... there is something to be said about "the good old days" |
I used to make fun of the older folks who used to say that to me, but I find myself saying that alot now. How ironic. :) |
|
|
|
04/15/2008 09:24:40 PM · #4 |
Oh, brother. There are so many holes in that I don't know where to begin.
So I won't.
|
|
|
|
04/15/2008 09:33:28 PM · #5 |
Those examples are extreme straw man arguments about the "good ol' days" vs. today. Those instances DO NOT happen as described above, and you'll notice that it moves with care from the most plausible at the start towards crazy at the end. That last one is simply insane. I have been teaching for long time now and have NEVER heard of a teacher losing a job from hugging a student. I hug my students from time to time without any fear because I don't hug them in ways or situations that are inappropriate.
As for bringing a shotgun to school, I don't believe that was typically allowed even in the 70's.
Yes, many of those inflated examples strike at some frustration about society, but most of those are not nearly as black & white as portrayed in those "examples". |
|
|
|
04/15/2008 09:49:27 PM · #6 |
 jmart said it best, so I'll just agree with him.
The "old days" were not better or worse than today.
They were just different.
There were prejudices and values that today we would think "quaint"
if not horrific, but we have replaced these with new ones.
There were typical kindnesses that continue today. |
|
|
|
04/15/2008 09:55:07 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by JMart:
As for bringing a shotgun to school, I don't believe that was typically allowed even in the 70's.
|
Hate to burst your bubble, but, back when I had long hair, smoked pot, and the "gangs" that roamed the hallways of high school were the 'cowboys', the 'jocks', and the 'freaks', I remember that there were kids at school with p.u. trucks that were brandishing their shotgun of choice in the rear window.
Noooo, noo, no, the guns never made there way into the building of the school.
Yes, these were kids straight from their ranch or farm.
Oh, yeah, back then, Spanish was an elective, not an issue.
|
|
|
|
04/15/2008 10:08:21 PM · #8 |
Shotguns were allowed in gun racks when I was in high school (1986 - 1989).
In college, getting an education degree, we were sternly warned about hugging children with anything besides a "side arm" and then only if other children or other adults were present. As a teacher, the same warning was often reiterated by my principal or at continuing ed. classes.
The aspirin scenario is exactly how it would play out in our local high schools. AND if I, as a teacher, gave a student I knew well a tylenol (even with parent permission), I could be charged with practicing medicine without a license. At the high school I taught at, if a student was prone to headaches, or such, their parent/guardian could bring by a bottle of tylenol/ibuprofen/aspirin for them to keep locked up in the cabinet.
The fistfight scenario is also what happens now. When I was in high school, two people get in a fight, they would go to the principal's office, be forced to apologize to eachother, then get In-school-suspension for three days. The SWAT team is not called, but the SRO (School Resource Officer) from the Sheriff's department is -- all involved face possible assault charges.
So while they may not be "black and white" unfortunately, they are not totally "out there" and completely impossible, either -- which says a lot.
:( |
|
|
|
04/15/2008 10:22:56 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by Man_Called_Horse:
Originally posted by JMart:
As for bringing a shotgun to school, I don't believe that was typically allowed even in the 70's.
|
Hate to burst your bubble, but, back when I had long hair, smoked pot, and the "gangs" that roamed the hallways of high school were the 'cowboys', the 'jocks', and the 'freaks', I remember that there were kids at school with p.u. trucks that were brandishing their shotgun of choice in the rear window.
Noooo, noo, no, the guns never made there way into the building of the school.
Yes, these were kids straight from their ranch or farm.
Oh, yeah, back then, Spanish was an elective, not an issue. |
Actually, part of my point is that the whole thing started with the most plausible example. I have no problem believing that having a shotgun in s truck at school would have been accepted at more schools 30 years ago, although I will bet you that most schools had rules against having them on school grounds even in the 70's.
The problem I see with perpetuating false dichotomies like those above is that it avoids dealing with real problems in real ways. When the premise of an argument starts with, "Things are better today than yesterday..." the arguments typically end up being this sort of inflated, exaggerated and over-simplified caricature of yesterday's quasi-utopia against todays distopia. It's just not an intellectually honest way to form an argument (refereing to the chain-email, not Man_Called_Horse), so I like to make a point of pointing that out when I see these types of things.
I'd love to sit around and rebut arguments I'm sure will be offered and I hate to post and duck, but I have to get to sleep (school in the morning and all :P ) |
|
|
|
04/15/2008 10:32:38 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by karmat:
The fistfight scenario is also what happens now. When I was in high school, two people get in a fight, they would go to the principal's office, be forced to apologize to each other, then get In-school-suspension for three days. The SWAT team is not called, but the SRO (School Resource Officer) from the Sheriff's department is -- all involved face possible assault charges.
:( |
I would have to agree mostly with your experience, but one thing claws at my sensibility in todays world.
If one kid was getting thrashed, and the other kid was victorious from the fisticuffs, not only would the thrashed kid come back with his "friends" and family to kick the victorious fighters ass, but they would bring weapons, including guns.
Today, there is no such thing as a 'gentleman's fight'.
Therefore, in some cases, I can see SWAT called to duty over a couple of kids dancing in the weeds.
|
|
|
|
04/15/2008 11:51:00 PM · #11 |
And if little Johnny hugs his teacher because he's grateful she comforted him, HE might get expelled too!
4-year-old suspended after hugging teacher's aide |
|
|
|
04/15/2008 11:55:15 PM · #12 |
I wouldnt really know the difference between now and 30 years ago, seeing as I turn 32 in a few months.
|
|
|
|
04/16/2008 01:04:40 AM · #13 |
You all really deserve a good timeout (there will be no spankings going on)
I still remember that paddle the principal had...really big with lots of holes in it. Ouch...
ED: Glad the teacher didn't see that typo
Message edited by author 2008-04-16 01:11:25. |
|
|
|
04/16/2008 05:55:38 AM · #14 |
I witnessed the visible transition in public school in California in the late 70's. I can tell you that I noticed things had changed dramatically during my (abbreviated) stint in Jr. High & High School. I've also witnessed things first hand when my oldest kids went through high school.
Although I see JMart's point - these examples are at opposite extremes, they ring very true. Not mentioned yet: First grader expelled for sexual harassment for kissing a classmate?? Things are MUCH different for kids growing up these days than they were 30 years ago. Is it better or worse now? What do the statistics say in terms of graduating, illiteracy, etc. From a personal experience perspective, I can say unequivocally they are worse. It's somewhat beyond me how anyone can say it is not. |
|
|
|
04/16/2008 06:03:38 AM · #15 |
Give your mum a BIG KISS from me, that was a well needed good read, made my day CHEERS MUM XxX
|
|
|
|
04/16/2008 06:18:00 AM · #16 |
Originally posted by Man_Called_Horse:
2007 - School goes into lock down, and FBI is called. Jack is hauled off to jail and never sees his truck or gun again. |
Originally posted by karmat:
AND if I, as a teacher, gave a student I knew well a tylenol (even with parent permission), I could be charged with practicing medicine without a license. At the high school I taught at, if a student was prone to headaches, or such, their parent/guardian could bring by a bottle of tylenol/ibuprofen/aspirin for them to keep locked up in the cabinet.
When I was in high school, two people get in a fight, (...) The SWAT team is not called, but the SRO (School Resource Officer) from the Sheriff's department is -- all involved face possible assault charges.
|
Honestly, I can't see anything wrong with that.
|
|
|
|
04/16/2008 07:35:14 AM · #17 |
My husband works as an administrator in a suburban high school...
The main problem with the system "these days" is that those who make up the system MUST protect themselves from potential lawsuits. In 1977, neither parent of the fistfighters would have been as likely to sue the school system, the administrators, or the family of the other child if one of the fighters was injured. In 2007, my husband carries insurance because he has been threatened several times by lawsuit-happy parents who are *positive* it wasn't their kid who was in the wrong, and we'd be in a world of hurt if someone slapped a $1M lawsuit on him.
Johnny punched Mark in the face? And Johnny broke Mark's jaw? Who will pay for the dental bills? Who will pay for the pain and suffering Mark deals with while drinking his meals from a straw for the next six weeks? Maybe Mark's family's insurance covers it, but what if they have none? Maybe Johnny's family should, but wait! Where were the administrators to break up the fight? In their offices telling kids they can't take cell phone pictures of each other in the shower after P.E.? Maybe dealing with a bomb threat? Maybe they were neglectful in providing a safe school environment; we could sue them! And where was the resource officer? Oh, he was working on the bomb threat too?
...Never mind the fact that Mark was running off his mouth to Johnny in the first place, calling him racial names, etc.
It's a pretty mixed up system, it's true. But it will never get any better until the parents of the children in it start raising their kids right and allowing necessary discipline to be used.
Message edited by author 2008-04-16 09:48:39. |
|
|
|
04/16/2008 07:35:35 AM · #18 |
Nice headline, but if you read the article it was not just about a hug. I've been shocked at some 4 year olds before and it might be that this is actually as stupid as it sounds on the face, but this is what the article says:
he "rubbed his face in the chest of (the) female employee"
Also, 30 years ago we did not have the Internet to search for obscure cases with which to serve as examples of what is normal. Crazy stuff happened 30 years ago too, you just didn't know about it as much as you do today.
gotta go work... |
|
|
|
04/16/2008 07:41:05 AM · #19 |
While these scenerios depict some opposite extremes, they DO generally depict them accurately. I remember many of these type scenes. I grew up in a rural area (and still live there too)...I also remember the worse things we did as Seniors are so whimpy compared to what trouble kids get into these days...
The 'biggest' 'notorious' trouble my Class of 82 did was rearrange the letters on the school board one night to say "Class of 8two rules....BBall live with ___, Eat Me _____" (blanks contained coaches names) This sign was discovered and probably wasn't up more than an hour. Well all kids involved where suspended...any extra currricular and/or sports in which they were involved in they were immediately kicked off the teams. costing one kid his school letter.
No damage was done to the property....I can't even imagine what 'pranks' are done in schools today....
|
|
|
|
04/16/2008 09:07:13 AM · #20 |
Originally posted by JMart:
Also, 30 years ago we did not have the Internet to search for obscure cases with which to serve as examples of what is normal. Crazy stuff happened 30 years ago too, you just didn't know about it as much as you do today.
|
Not many 4 year olds went to school in 1977. Except maybe private or religious private school. |
|
|
|
04/16/2008 09:19:30 AM · #21 |
Originally posted by levyj413:
Oh, brother. There are so many holes in that I don't know where to begin.
So I won't. |
Why not? If something has holes in it you mount a fan to it and turn it into a cooler!
In any event this example is DEAD ON:
***********************************************************
Scenario: Jeffrey will not be still in class, disrupts other students.
1977 - Jeffrey is sent to office and given a good paddling by the principal. He returns to class, sits still, and does not disrupt class again.
2007 - Jeffrey is diagnosed with ADD and given huge doses of Ritalin; becomes a zombie. School gets extra money from state because Jeffrey has a learning disability.
*************************************************************
Some schools will tolerate only one example of what they call ADD behavior from a child. Then it's off to a doctor of THEIR CHOOSING! You don't like it, you have your kid thrown out of school. Some of these poor kids end up on as many as 8 different meds and end up taking much worse as adults. All because teachers were afraid to properly correct a child's behavior. I've seen PEER REVIEWED papers showing that as many as 80 percent of children diagnosed with ADD have nothing wron g with them. We're in the process of destroying the second generation of these kids.
The examples from the OP were carefully constructed to elicit responses from both sides of the issues listed. That helps bring about a discussion where both sides can learn. And Old codgers like the OP and myself can pine away for the good ol days! LOL. |
|
|
|
04/16/2008 03:28:35 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by JMart:
Nice headline, but if you read the article it was not just about a hug. I've been shocked at some 4 year olds before and it might be that this is actually as stupid as it sounds on the face, but this is what the article says:
he "rubbed his face in the chest of (the) female employee"
Also, 30 years ago we did not have the Internet to search for obscure cases with which to serve as examples of what is normal. Crazy stuff happened 30 years ago too, you just didn't know about it as much as you do today.
gotta go work... |
You really think there was anything sexually motivated in his actions? It was likely soft and warm and felt nice, like a favourite blankie and he was snuggling in.
If it did appear sexual they should have been checking out the parents rather than just suspending the child. Kids at that age do play with themselves because it feels good, but they don't normally become aroused by others. It would have been learned somewhere.
The reason I used this case was because I HAD heard about it already, from TV news.
We had THAT 30 years ago. And newspapers and magazines and radio.
eta; Thank goodness my kids' primary school had some common sense and compassion, and the parents must have had too, because there weren't any complaints.
Their tiny powerhouse of a kindergarten teacher never spared a hug and even 20 years later Becky got one from her at the reunion.
Their principal used to stand on the steps and greet the kids as they arrived and many ran up to him with, and for, a hug to start their day. One got the impression that, for some of them, this might be the only hug they'd get.
Message edited by author 2008-04-16 15:36:31. |
|
|
|
04/16/2008 03:43:23 PM · #23 |
| It's interesting to compare our different ages with our responses... in general, the older we are the more we tend to agree with the OP! |
|
|
|
04/16/2008 03:46:55 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by BeeCee:
Originally posted by JMart:
Nice headline, but if you read the article it was not just about a hug. I've been shocked at some 4 year olds before and it might be that this is actually as stupid as it sounds on the face, but this is what the article says:
he "rubbed his face in the chest of (the) female employee" |
You really think there was anything sexually motivated in his actions? It was likely soft and warm and felt nice, like a favourite blankie and he was snuggling in. |
Most four year olds associate breasts with breakfast, not sex.
Second the comment that most of these rules are driven by issues of liability, not morality. |
|
|
|
04/16/2008 09:33:26 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by fir3bird:
***********************************************************
Scenario: Jeffrey will not be still in class, disrupts other students.
1977 - Jeffrey is sent to office and given a good paddling by the principal. He returns to class, sits still, and does not disrupt class again.
2007 - Jeffrey is diagnosed with ADD and given huge doses of Ritalin; becomes a zombie. School gets extra money from state because Jeffrey has a learning disability.
*************************************************************
Some schools will tolerate only one example of what they call ADD behavior from a child. Then it's off to a doctor of THEIR CHOOSING! You don't like it, you have your kid thrown out of school. Some of these poor kids end up on as many as 8 different meds and end up taking much worse as adults. All because teachers were afraid to properly correct a child's behavior. I've seen PEER REVIEWED papers showing that as many as 80 percent of children diagnosed with ADD have nothing wron g with them. We're in the process of destroying the second generation of these kids.
The examples from the OP were carefully constructed to elicit responses from both sides of the issues listed. That helps bring about a discussion where both sides can learn. And Old codgers like the OP and myself can pine away for the good ol days! LOL. |
It is interesting to point out that is seems to be an epidemic, or a huge coincidence that our children, of all ages, are being treated for ADD, and for childhood depression.
Is it just me, or has something made our children more depressed, or behaviorally challenged?
Is it the video game? Plastic leaching into our bodies from water containers? or the pharmaceutical soup in the water? or the chemicals in our foods? or is it just that we are afraid to take a strap to our kids when they need it?
|
|
