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04/08/2008 02:28:46 PM · #276 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
1-4. No |
Careful Doc... true faith does not allow for these possibilities, and doubt is a big deal.
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The message of the bible is inerrant. Discrepancies due to human error may have crept in, but these are small and insignificant compared to the overall message. If I believe in the Christian God, it follows that I believe Him to be capable of preserving his message. |
Oh, let's just take a simple example... According to Mark, Jesus advises his disciple to get rid of swords because those who “live by the sword shall die by it,” a very clear message. According to Luke, Jesus advises his disciples to buy swords. Those moral messages stand in total opposition. Assuming God is capable of preserving His message is no less a claim than assuming God is capable of making His existence indisputably obvious to all, yet neither has happened.
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Jesus did tell us in a parable in Luke: " That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows." Seems to be some differentiation there. |
Not much. I see a story framed in slavery and physical abuse, where ignorance is no excuse. If you do something wrong according to rules you have no way of knowing, you'll still be beaten. In the very next section of Luke, Jesus says, "Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division." Job well done. :-/ |
blah blah blah. I open up and I just get it throw in my face. I'm not asking you to participate in my faith. You are stretching as it is. Next time you get pulled over by a cop, tell him "I didn't know the speed limit was X". See what he says. :-/ And don't you think the Matthew (not Mark) passage was Jesus simply saying, "Don't use your swords or you will get killed right here and now by the mob." when he was arrested? Does he have to be making sweeping statments all the time? Does any of this have to do with the message that we are all sinners? |
The common interpretation of Jesus sending his disciples to buy swords and then, upon the discovery that they have, already, two swords, proclaiming "That is enough", is not to refute pacifism nor to actually defend themselves, but to provide the Romans with evidence that Jesus was indeed leading a rebellion. |
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04/08/2008 02:40:39 PM · #277 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
In speaking of the medically inexplicable cures that have been occurring for a century and a half at the French shrine of Lourdes, John LaFarge, son of the American painter of the same name and a man who dedicated his life to peace and reconciliation, remarked cogently: For those who believe in God, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not, no explanation is possible.[/i] |
Would you agree that it would be a shame if we all believed that it was god and never tested the water at Lourdes for a natural and reproducible cure that could benefit everyone?
How many patients have you referred to Lourdes?
If there were a faith healer in town, would you recommend your patients to him?
What about healing through non-Christian faith healing - would you refer a patient to a witch or a native american healer?
Have you ever prescribed sugar pills for a patient's ailment and had them work? If you also prayed for that patient, would you credit the pill or the prayer?
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04/08/2008 02:46:53 PM · #278 |
Originally posted by Matthew:
Would you agree that it would be a shame if we all believed that it was god and never tested the water at Lourdes for a natural and reproducible cure that could benefit everyone?
How many patients have you referred to Lourdes?
If there were a faith healer in town, would you recommend your patients to him?
What about healing through non-Christian faith healing - would you refer a patient to a witch or a native american healer?
Have you ever prescribed sugar pills for a patient's ailment and had them work? If you also prayed for that patient, would you credit the pill or the prayer? |
1. Yup
2. None
3. Depends on if he takes their insurance.
4. Nope.
5. I'd credit God.
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04/08/2008 03:09:01 PM · #279 |
Originally posted by hopper:
If I had a dollar for every weirdo that I've heard attribute everything and anything the God's miraculous hand ... |
Er... that's pretty much the basis of Christianity: everything and anything is the result of God's miraculous hand. Your point is valid though- a winning athlete who thanks God for a fingertip catch may not speak for all believers (certainly not the opposing team). Indeed, just defining "true" believers is an exercise in futility. Beneath the umbrella of Christianity we've already seen people here declare that Catholics or various individuals aren't *really* Christians, and few people actually share exactly the same beliefs. From a single congregation, a Martin Luther or Jim Jones can declare that his beliefs are the real truth and suddenly his followers and former churchmates each view the other side as not really Christian. The irony is that religion itself follows a process of evolution that would make many of today's practitioners outcasts by the standards of a few hundred years ago. Eventually, the differences become great enough to distinguish Judaism, Christianity and Islam as incompatible species despite their roots in the same source material.
Message edited by author 2008-04-08 15:11:28. |
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04/08/2008 03:13:34 PM · #280 |
There was a medical missionary family in Zambia who one day received news that one of the churches that supported them could no longer send them funds of roughly $500 a month. This news was greeted by the wife with worry and fretting. Later in the day she received an email from a man she had never met who did not know of the church that had been supporting her. He wrote telling her he wanted to support her family at $500 a month. What's up with that?
The Christian will take a step back and say, "whoa, God does know what He's doing (despite our lack of faith)." The atheist will say, "wow, lucky coincidence".
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04/08/2008 03:24:12 PM · #281 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
There was a medical missionary family in Zambia who one day received news that one of the churches that supported them could no longer send them funds of roughly $500 a month. This news was greeted by the wife with worry and fretting. Later in the day she received an email from a man she had never met who did not know of the church that had been supporting her. He wrote telling her he wanted to support her family at $500 a month. What's up with that?
The Christian will take a step back and say, "whoa, God does know what He's doing (despite our lack of faith)." The atheist will say, "wow, lucky coincidence". |
And when the militants with machetes hack eveyone in the villge to bits, the Christian will call it "all part of God's plan" and the atheist will say "That's terrible."
Message edited by author 2008-04-08 15:24:28. |
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04/08/2008 03:30:58 PM · #282 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
There was a medical missionary family in Zambia.. The atheist will say, "wow, lucky coincidence". |
The atheist might ask for some credible source to back up that story before saying anything. ;-) |
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04/08/2008 03:39:03 PM · #283 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
...Later in the day she received an email from a man she had never met who did not know of the church that had been supporting her. He wrote telling her he wanted to support her family at $500 a month. |
And the cynic will say that the next email he sends her will say that he's sending a money order for $1000 and could she please send him back $500 so that he can continue doing God's work elsewhere. |
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04/08/2008 03:39:04 PM · #284 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
There was a medical missionary family in Zambia.. The atheist will say, "wow, lucky coincidence". |
The atheist might ask for some credible source to back up that story before saying anything. ;-) |
Well, I can attest to it as I was the man who emailed them. |
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04/08/2008 03:48:36 PM · #285 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
There was a medical missionary family in Zambia who one day received news that one of the churches that supported them could no longer send them funds of roughly $500 a month. This news was greeted by the wife with worry and fretting. Later in the day she received an email from a man she had never met who did not know of the church that had been supporting her. He wrote telling her he wanted to support her family at $500 a month. What's up with that?
The Christian will take a step back and say, "whoa, God does know what He's doing (despite our lack of faith)." The atheist will say, "wow, lucky coincidence". |
Funny how God will send some families 500 bucks, will allow some five, six, and seven year old kids out tobogganing to get blown to bits by a landmine somewhere in the former Yugoslavia, will happily abide armed zealots of another faith to take over an elementary school, then at the denoument, will watch impassively as said zealots lob hand grenades into fleeing groups of ten year olds (when all it would take to avert unspeakable suffering would be a flick of his gravity-defying finger), will let some poor lonely alcoholic sap die a cold and lonely death on the streets of Toronto, and yet, will line the pockets of people with cash for the asking, will cause his wife to appear in grilled cheese sandwiches so that some midde-aged hausfrau can win a few grand at the slots, will let American heroes win baseball games and football games and basketball games for His Greater Glory .... yeah, funny that. Funny how people seem to have infinitely more compassion for their fellow human beings facing tragedy than this god. As Nietzsche said, a god that absurd really needs to be fired even if he existed. |
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04/08/2008 03:48:36 PM · #286 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
There was a medical missionary family in Zambia.. The atheist will say, "wow, lucky coincidence". |
The atheist might ask for some credible source to back up that story before saying anything. ;-) |
Well, I can attest to it as I was the man who emailed them. |
Did you just wake up one day and decide to email a random address in Zambia with offers of cash, or did you know something about the family's need and make a conscience decision to help? It may be an admirable gesture, but I'm not seeing a coincidence.
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04/08/2008 04:03:38 PM · #287 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
There was a medical missionary family in Zambia.. The atheist will say, "wow, lucky coincidence". |
The atheist might ask for some credible source to back up that story before saying anything. ;-) |
Well, I can attest to it as I was the man who emailed them. |
Did you just wake up one day and decide to email a random address in Zambia with offers of cash, or did you know something about the family's need and make a conscience decision to help? It may be an admirable gesture, but I'm not seeing a coincidence. |
Jenn and I had discussions about what we wanted our money to support. We didn't want to simply give our money our church as a) it's lazy and b) it may ultimately be self serving. what if my money simply goes to cushier seats to sit on?
We decided we wanted three things:
1) To reach the poorest of the poor in the world
2) To give them the good news of the gospel (thus no simply humanitarian causes)
3) A medical mission would be icing on the cake as I'm a doctor.
I remembered that my best friend in residency had spent some time with a missionary in Zambia before we had met. I emailed Dean (my friend) to see if they were still out there and how to give. He gave me some details about them and the organization I'd give through. I set up the donation and emailed the missionary family introducing myself and warning that there would be money in their account they wouldn't be expecting. I still have never met them to this day as their base at home is in Florida (I think). Dean later confided the story to me as the Letchfords were too modest to do so themselves. Later I confirmed it with them.
I have heard such stories in church before (always with some phrase "TO THE PENNY!!!" in it.) Really I had always though, "ya, nice story". When I experienced this, it made the hairs stand up on the back of my neck. I just remember thinking, "well, what am I supposed to think about that?"
Message edited by author 2008-04-08 16:05:33.
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04/08/2008 04:24:10 PM · #288 |
I hear that and think funny coincidence. I also wonder how often you give money to someone or some other charitable venture and they haven't just had the same amount of money removed. I know it happens to me all the time! Isn't that a strange coincidence ?
On base odds, 5000 to 9000 people a day experience a one in a million chance event, each and every day.
I don't know what the books look like for most missions, but I suspect there's a reasonable in and out flux of donations ? |
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04/08/2008 04:51:40 PM · #289 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
I hear that and think funny coincidence. I also wonder how often you give money to someone or some other charitable venture and they haven't just had the same amount of money removed. I know it happens to me all the time! Isn't that a strange coincidence ? |
No worries. That's what I predicted you'd say. I wasn't presenting the story to prove miracles occur. The takehome is that we view events through our worldview and not vice versa. It's really the point I've been espousing on all these threads. We all make our choice and live our lives according to that choice. Nobody has a monopoly on the truth and nobody has enough facts to make an airtight case. You may be rowing on the left and I'm rowing on the right, be we're in the same boat.
Message edited by author 2008-04-08 16:52:43.
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04/08/2008 04:57:43 PM · #290 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
You may be rowing on the left and I'm rowing on the right, be we're in the same boat. |
It'd be good if we would both pull in the same direction so we could stop going around in circles for a change. |
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04/08/2008 05:14:02 PM · #291 |
One day, when I was 10, some friends of mine from the neighboring town were going to come for a sleep over. My Mother told me to call them to find out what time they wanted to come over. I picked up the phone and dialed their phone number and, without hearing a ring-tone, my friends’ mother picked up the phone on the other end as she was about to dial us to find out when she should bring her sons to our house. At first we were both confused because, while we were connected, I hadn’t heard anyone pick up and she hadn’t yet dialed but could hear me on the line. Then we had a good laugh over it.
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04/08/2008 05:17:40 PM · #292 |
Originally posted by milo655321:
One day, when I was 10, some friends of mine from the neighboring town were going to come for a sleep over. My Mother told me to call them to find out what time they wanted to come over. I picked up the phone and dialed their phone number and, without hearing a ring-tone, my friends’ mother picked up the phone on the other end as she was about to dial us to find out when she should bring her sons to our house. At first we were both confused because, while we were connected, I hadn’t heard anyone pick up and she hadn’t yet dialed but could hear me on the line. Then we had a good laugh over it. |
Dude! I've had that happen to me too. At least once if not a few times. Pretty wild, eh?
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04/08/2008 05:34:58 PM · #293 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Dude! I've had that happen to me too. At least once if not a few times. Pretty wild, eh? |
You ... you â€Â¦ you mean it wasn’t a miracle?
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04/08/2008 05:51:46 PM · #294 |
Originally posted by milo655321:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Dude! I've had that happen to me too. At least once if not a few times. Pretty wild, eh? |
You ... you â€Â¦ you mean it wasn’t a miracle? |
Weell, I don't think mine was. You make the call on your own.
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04/08/2008 06:01:22 PM · #295 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Weell, I don't think mine was. |
O thou of little faith ... |
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04/08/2008 06:56:15 PM · #296 |
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04/08/2008 07:09:16 PM · #297 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Ye. |
Thou. |
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04/09/2008 12:20:55 AM · #298 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by dponlyme:
If indeed their is a God and indeed if he is the Christian God would you want to worship and serve him? If you would then I can show you how. |
The question is without meaning. I may as well ask you, "If a tree falls in the forest, and it's a pine tree, will spring come six weeks earlier?" Means nothing to me.
And the reason I think it's demeaning is because, despite the venue, the strongly stated positions, even the use of words like "hard atheist", you and others think people are so simplistic that they will shed a lifetime of self-discovery with the utterance of what amounts to a few magic words. You effectively discount one's life's journey as somehow unworthy, meaningless, even heretical and damning and deserving of an eternity of suffering. THAT is what's objectionable: your rejection of humanity in favour of fantasy. I have no quarrel with whatever you want to believe for yourself, or however you want to conduct yourself in view of your beliefs; but leave alone other, good, well-meaning, intelligent people who, for all you know, very well may have had a richer more fulfilling journey than you.
(And for the record, no, no God, never was. And to add whipped cream to that dessert, I deny the existence of the holy spirit.) |
This is crap. Why don't you just answer the question. What is demeaning is the fact that you think you know everything because of your life's journey. Is it at an end. Is there nothing more to explore. How pathetic if that is the case. I neither damn you or think you to be heretical. I think you are lost just as you think that I am lost. Just because you have a religious background doesn't give you the right or indeed the knowledge to determine the lack of existence of God. As I have stated before religion does not qualify anyone to say they have a relationship with God. The only thing that does is having a relationship with God. If you had ever had that relationship you would never forfeit it in favor of a belief based on a theory which a man (or men) with limited intelligence and limited sensory range provided to you. Your life experience or journey or whatever you want to call it has led you astray and you are so scared to answer the question because I suspect that due to your background you already know that God does exist but you are running so hard in the other direction that you can't even think clear enough to realize that there is no reason to run. Do I have any scientific proof of that? uh doesn't matter. It is my educated guess based on the fact that you simply won't answer the question. Answer the freaking question and PROVE me wrong. Who are you afraid of angering by answering the question in the negative. If you indeed would answer the question in the positive then we could talk further about your experiences and religious background and how they and other experiences have brought you to your current state. You are still free to arrive at your own ill informed world view. Would you not like to show me through your background and vast experience where I have gone astray. I would certainly like for someone to fix me if I am broken. Can you please assist me as a fellow human being and help me to see where I have gone wrong? Answer the question.
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04/09/2008 12:40:29 AM · #299 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by dponlyme:
If indeed their is a God and indeed if he is the Christian God would you want to worship and serve him? |
What I never got in the many years of listening to these messages was a clear answer to this. If there is a god and he is a Christian god, why would he care if worshiped him and served him ? Why would he be so petty and judgmental as to care what I think of him ? I never understood the hubris that assumed a god so omnipotent and universal would have nothing better to do than worry about what I thought about my next door neighbour's wife or if I ate fish on a Friday or not.
I know the typical answer is to just wave it away and say that its motivations are unknowable and we don't understand the plan and all that. But if that is the answer, then it's all just being made up anyway. |
Finally someone who is willing to think about the existence of God. This is a very easy question to answer. He cares because He loves you. He created you so that he could have your companionship. Why would he not care what you did. Would you not care what your son did. We are all sons of God. We are just not begotten sons of God of which there was only one. Jesus Christ. God has nothing better to do than to look after his children. Would you be any different with your children? As far as the fish thing: that is crap anyway. Another example of 'religion' ruining or at least crippling someone who would otherwise not think it illogical to have a belief in God. Don't let man made crap stop you from exploring the existence of God. Think of this. Even though he came down to the Isrealites and gave them proof of his existence in leading them through the desert to the land he promised them they still went off and made an idol to worship. The religious system of the Jews was scathingly damned by Jesus Christ yet it was God who they sought to worship. The people took what God had given them and turned into a bunch of crap as Jesus pointed out quite vehemently. People being as they are have done this to the Christian 'religion' also. Just as the Isrealites did not cause God to not exist by the way they conducted themselves neither do the supposed Christians nullify God because of their crap. Read revelation. He ain't all that happy with the Christian 'religion'. Neither am I nor should anyone who has a true and saving relationship with God.
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04/09/2008 12:42:23 AM · #300 |
| I don't even know what the hell you're talking about. You want me to say something like, "Well, if God DID exist, and he's a big ole CHRISTIAN, I would WORSHIP him!!" Is that it? Sounds like the ravings of a lunatic to me. Anyway, I don't throw away hard-earned moral code and a lifetime of a developing weltanschauung on request so that some anonymous navel-gazer on some website can play weird head games, sorry. Oh, and nice one, belittling my views with your half-baked rant. Very Christ-like. And I mean that. |
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