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04/03/2008 10:17:20 AM · #1 |
You many not know it from my posts but I'm a super big fat softy, I have a hard time saying NO, and I get easily upset when people don't like me or what I do... granted since starting my business I've gotten alot better, but still. So last year when we were starting our first year doing weddings solo and I was looking for clients I took on three weddings at discounts of less than half price. BIG MISTAKE. As of now I have complete 2 of these discount weddings and I've ended up writing i forum about too of them (the third is this weekend).
In each case I booked the weddings a) because I was looking for clients and b) because they gave me some sob story about why they couldn't afford a wedding photographer. I, being the big softy I am bought their stories all three times, and I'm sad to say, I've been taken advantage of all three times.
the first one was Wedding from hellwhich I did for free (you can read the story in the thread), and only the bride mother ever ordered. the second promted my grouchy day thread this wedding I did for under half price and have had nothing but comlaints about prices, etc. The thrid I do this weekend (actually my wife  eyesdown will be primary shooter, I'll play second fiddle) and though we're doing the wedding for about $500 dollars (and I'm not going to go into why so cheap suffice it to say I'm a stupid big fat softy) she has also done nothing but comlpain about our price for this and that and is she can get this or that for free or less (we did their engagement photo's last summer gratis as well) and I get the distinct feeling that the sob story she gave me in the first place may have beena complete fabrication.
All this to say, Be careful with your prices people, I know there have been many threads about pricing abd how people just starting out low ball their prices etc. but the fact is that people will gauge your worth by a) your photos and b) your price. if you have great photo's and super cheap prices you may get lots of bookings, but what are the people going to be like? will they be the kind of customer that values the work you do? or the type that figures you only charge so much so you must not be doing that much?
I'm not saying dont ever discount your prices... but a) be clear about what your price normally is. b) be clear about the amount of work that goes into your work (whether it be weddings or whatever else) people have the impressions that all we do is take a few pictures, and send them to the printers... they have no real idea, for the most part, the amount of work that goes into making truly spectacular photos behind the scenes.
anyway I think I'm getting close to ranting... In the end, my prices are quite competitive anyway, and it's going to be alot harder for people to find me giving out big discounts just to get clients... this marshmellow is getting crusty. |
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04/03/2008 10:24:59 AM · #2 |
Never done a wedding but the way i see it is that if you charge just below the competition (and i'm talking about good competition) then you should be fine. You arent too cheap to get the annoying people and you are expensive enough to make people feel secure that you know what you are doing, whether or not you do actually know ;)
Sometimes a higher price is good - just like a rolex, it is something to desire from a client, but you need the portfolio to back it up ;) |
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04/03/2008 10:35:23 AM · #3 |
You're just too nice :)
People seem to grossly underestimate the work involved when shooting a wedding. Not just the shooting but the after-capture stuff you have to worry about. I know a guy in UK who shoots medium format film for weddings and he can do about 2 a week since all he has to do is send some rolls of film to the printers. They even put it in a nice looking book thing for the couple too!
When it came to my weddings I did the first one free (it was my bro's), second one at £300, third at £500 and the next one will be £600. Eventually i'll cap the rate at £1000 after i've got the portfolio. I increased the prices gradually because once you do a free one, everyone emails you asking if you'll do it for free and if not, why not.
Stick to your guns. Thicken the skin and if the couple appreciate proper photos they'll pay what it's worth to them to get the job done.
Good job for figuring it all out though and I hope you're still going to make a go of it. You have your prices, stick to them.
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04/03/2008 10:55:11 AM · #4 |
| Thanks... witting this all out is sort of like DPC Therapy, get it out and get on with it :) I really am looking forward to the rest of the weddings I have booked this summer, and to all the new things I'm going to be trying (including doing some model shoots... and some other projects) |
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04/03/2008 11:12:59 AM · #5 |
think of it this way:
You did three wedding for nothing at all basically.
BUT By Gawds did you get some EXPERIENCE from that:
THAT is priceless.
Think like this, if you had these three weddings and they went perfectly adn say the next 5 wedding went perfectly. Then you had these three weddings that went like CRAP.
You would have been totally and utterly with out any knowledge as to what to do, you would have freaked out and not been as cool.
Now that you have had the weddings from hell, you have that experiece and you have LEARNT from it and you will be a BETTER photographer for having this happen |
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04/03/2008 11:17:04 AM · #6 |
Originally posted by JulietNN:
think of it this way:
You did three wedding for nothing at all basically.
BUT By Gawds did you get some EXPERIENCE from that:
THAT is priceless.
Think like this, if you had these three weddings and they went perfectly adn say the next 5 wedding went perfectly. Then you had these three weddings that went like CRAP.
You would have been totally and utterly with out any knowledge as to what to do, you would have freaked out and not been as cool.
Now that you have had the weddings from hell, you have that experiece and you have LEARNT from it and you will be a BETTER photographer for having this happen |
can't argue with that :) you are a wise one :) |
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04/03/2008 11:30:11 AM · #7 |
| nah I am just an ole fart telling youhow I see it, sometimes you a differnt person looking at it can see it in a completely different light. |
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04/03/2008 11:37:31 AM · #8 |
| As my dad taught me, you must learn how to be utter bitch/bastard with clients - not so you treat them that way all the time of course, but you MUST have the backbone to stand up to them and tell them no or refuse to work for them if they get difficult. Basically anyone coming to you with a sob story - assume that they are planning on taking advantage of you. Sad but true, I've seen it happen often enough; I can, and do, 'fire' clients who try to screw me over. |
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04/03/2008 11:41:03 AM · #9 |
Originally posted by snaffles:
As my dad taught me, you must learn how to be utter bitch/bastard with clients - not so you treat them that way all the time of course, but you MUST have the backbone to stand up to them and tell them no or refuse to work for them if they get difficult. Basically anyone coming to you with a sob story - assume that they are planning on taking advantage of you. Sad but true, I've seen it happen often enough; I can, and do, 'fire' clients who try to screw me over. |
Question: If you have a contract with a client... how do you go about 'firing' them? do you have some sort of clause written in? |
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04/04/2008 06:14:09 AM · #10 |
| Simple...basically I have it written in that if they go against my training principles, ie revert to doing stuff that caused a horse to become a *problem* animal in the first place, that they are jeopardizing not only their safety but mine and the horse's. My concern for the horse comes first. I don't do it often but when I do it's for the better. |
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04/05/2008 01:39:28 PM · #11 |
If you do not get paid enough you will not stay in business. Either because you can't pay teh bills or you're not making enough to put up with the BS.
get out of the $500 cheapshit weddings. People will spend money on what they value. if they'll only spend $500 it's not because they can't afford more, it's because they don't place any value on the photography. if they don't value it, they don't value YOU!
I've seen people spend more on me than anything at the wedding, and I shot a wedding where the DJ cost more than me and the flowers cost more than me too.
Are you a terrible lousy photographer or are you average or great? Charge accordingly! If you're average (most of us are in this category whether we'll admit it or not) then find out what the average wedding photographer in your area is charging and charge that. one does $1500, another $1700 another $1750...add em up and average them out. take $100 off if you want to be more aggressive in your pricing.
BRIDE magazine and the rest often say the reception (food) should be 50% of the wedding budget, the photo 10%. So call some reception places - $50/plate? $90/plate? Remember teh bar tab too. 200 people? 200 at $90 each is some $18,0000. that makes it a $36,000 wedding - and photo should be $3600 ish. Around here the average wedding runs $23,000.
You should book about 80% of your meetings if prices/product/quality is at the market. If you're booking 90-95% raise your prices. Booking only 50% then it may be your sales technique, price or what you're giving them.
Message edited by author 2008-04-05 13:44:32.
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04/05/2008 02:01:44 PM · #12 |
QUOTE
People will spend money on what they value. if they'll only spend $500 it's not because they can't afford more, it's because they don't place any value on the photography.
Prof_fate I'm going to have to partially disagree. I place a HUGE value on my wedding photos. I'm getting married in a few months. As a photographer I'm very picky about quality but honestly I don't have a bunch of money laying around to pay anyone. Marrying Tiff is more important to me than waiting another year to save up for pictures. Although I'm not wining to someone to take my pictures for free. |
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04/05/2008 02:51:59 PM · #13 |
Thanks Prof,
I do agree about not doing cheap weddings... like I siad my major problem is that I'm a big softy for sob stories... but that is rapidly changing... MY wife and I are on our way just now to the last wedding we'll ever do for that little. I'v learned the hard way that people pay for what they value
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04/05/2008 02:56:44 PM · #14 |
In my general experience (I have none as a photographer) I've found that those asking for a big discount are NOT those who really need or deserve it. They're usually the ones who have found that the squeaky wheel gets the grease, the ones with a sense of entitlement, the ones who have found that bullying or manipulation gets them what they want.
Those who need and deserve it most wouldn't even think to ask. They just struggle on their own to get it or they do without, unless someone steps in and gives.
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04/05/2008 03:02:24 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by Eyesup:
Thanks Prof,
... like I siad my major problem is that I'm a big softy for sob stories... but that is rapidly changing... MY wife and I are on our way just now to the last wedding we'll ever do for that little. I'v learned the hard way that people pay for what they value |
Good to hear.
One little-talked about side effect of grossly undercharging in business is an IRS auditor wondering if you are trying to evade taxes by underreporting your income. |
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04/05/2008 03:09:04 PM · #16 |
People will spend money on what they value. if they'll only spend $500 it's not because they can't afford more, it's because they don't place any value on the photography. if they don't value it, they don't value YOU!
[/quote]
That $500 photography budget is relative. The couple may not be able to afford any more.
Poor people get married too. |
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04/05/2008 03:15:44 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
People will spend money on what they value. if they'll only spend $500 it's not because they can't afford more, it's because they don't place any value on the photography. if they don't value it, they don't value YOU!
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That $500 photography budget is relative. The couple may not be able to afford any more.
Poor people get married too. |
Yup. My wedding photographer was my brother, a hobbyist photographer with a decent camera. Dinner was catered by the church women's group.
Granted, it was 27 years ago but the whole thing was under $2000. But I NEVER even gave a thought to asking anyone to lower their prices on anything! If I couldn't pay, I didn't have.
Message edited by author 2008-04-05 15:17:32. |
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04/05/2008 03:21:03 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
People will spend money on what they value. if they'll only spend $500 it's not because they can't afford more, it's because they don't place any value on the photography. if they don't value it, they don't value YOU!
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That $500 photography budget is relative. The couple may not be able to afford any more.
Poor people get married too. [/quote]
That may be true.. but I'm willing to bet that they didn't try to pull the same thing with the hall, or flowers etc. the last wedding I did at a discount (re: grouch day) got me at a discount but was able to pay for the wedding and resecption at a sheriton (and I know they cost alot cause I had my wedding there, and pay to have her photo's done at the zoo... I was the dumb bleeding heart who couldn't resist a sob story.... ah well.. live and learn
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04/05/2008 03:58:04 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by BeeCee:
In my general experience (I have none as a photographer) I've found that those asking for a big discount are NOT those who really need or deserve it. They're usually the ones who have found that the squeaky wheel gets the grease, the ones with a sense of entitlement, the ones who have found that bullying or manipulation gets them what they want.
Those who need and deserve it most wouldn't even think to ask. They just struggle on their own to get it or they do without, unless someone steps in and gives. |
She hit it EXACTLY, this is what I was trying to say. I can't afford a professional photographer for our wedding but I wouldn't ever ask a photographer to lower their price because I know what the behind the scenes work involves and I know that they deserve it. thanks Bee Cee! :) |
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04/05/2008 04:13:18 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by Eyesup:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
People will spend money on what they value. if they'll only spend $500 it's not because they can't afford more, it's because they don't place any value on the photography. if they don't value it, they don't value YOU!
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That $500 photography budget is relative. The couple may not be able to afford any more.
Poor people get married too. |
That may be true.. but I'm willing to bet that they didn't try to pull the same thing with the hall, or flowers etc. the last wedding I did at a discount (re: grouch day) got me at a discount but was able to pay for the wedding and resecption at a sheriton (and I know they cost alot cause I had my wedding there, and pay to have her photo's done at the zoo... I was the dumb bleeding heart who couldn't resist a sob story.... ah well.. live and learn |
No, I'm talking about the couple that's getting married at the courthouse and having a pig roast at the Elks' lodge because they really can't afford more. I don't disagree that there are people who will try to take advantage of someone's better nature.
Message edited by author 2008-04-05 16:15:22. |
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04/05/2008 05:07:34 PM · #21 |
From a business perspective: when we start out in business we are inclined to work for less just to get the business going, get our name out there and get some experience. When the check comes it is important to remember that what we got from doing that job was more than just cash. It is easy to forget. And I would observe that the experience you have had with two difficult customers is very valuable experience. They are out there and we need to develop a healthy and professional way of identifying them and negotiating with them or walking away from them. That kind of experience is priceless. Painful but priceless.
In the beginning, sometimes we just have to work cheaper to get the pump primed. But the goal is that once we have the experience and exposure we can start charging what we are worth. In the beginning sometimes it is better to be 'out there' doing it (at less pay) than sitting at home thinking about 'doing it'.
Message edited by author 2008-04-05 17:17:30. |
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04/05/2008 06:09:05 PM · #22 |
One of the first weddings I did was a bargain price for a guy who gave me a sob story. Then come to find out that the wedding was held at a $10,000 minimum venue (I know, because I looked into it later). I had ALL KINDS of problems with them, from no one showing up at the appointed session time to the bride showing up half an hour AFTER the wedding was supposed to begin. Later the guy had the gall to threaten to sue me because such and such a picture wasn't taken, etc.
Last May I did a last minute budget wedding at the local park for a very young couple, just out of high school. The mother was in charge of all the details. Again, no one was there on time and the entire event was just chaotic. Afterwards the mother was mad because it took two weeks for the proofs to come in (although it's what I promised) and because when the bride came to pick up the proofs, I didn't remind her of what print sizes came in her package. The mother called me unprofessional and said she was highly disappointed with my behavior at the wedding. I went through all of the contractual details that were unfulfilled on their end and mentioned that some of my own personal effects were needed to help their wedding get off without a hitch. I have yet to hear from the bride about what images she'd like to have printed!
On the other hand, I've done probably 15 other weddings over the course of the last five years where the people getting married really did need my help if they were to get any pictures of their wedding day. I don't do them for free, and I usually only give discounts on Friday or Sunday weddings, since people who have a small budget usually know better than to do Saturday weddings. I do charge so that people don't feel they're getting a handout. I might charge $250 for four hours and 100 edited images on a CD. I know, that's unbelieveable, but I've worked with some terrific people who were so grateful for my assistance. And I enjoy myself - I get to spend the afternoon with two happy families and I can have a nice little piece of cake on the side.
I grew up in a low-income family, so I know how much things like this can mean. Especially to people who seldom get their pictures taken because they just don't have the money. The memories are priceless.
The lesson I've learned is that it's okay to do budget weddings, as long as you are sure that the recipients are actually in need of your help. I can't let a couple of bad clients ruin it for people who really need a deal, you know? |
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04/18/2008 08:54:53 AM · #23 |
Originally posted by moswyn:
The lesson I've learned is that it's okay to do budget weddings, as long as you are sure that the recipients are actually in need of your help. I can't let a couple of bad clients ruin it for people who really need a deal, you know? |
I can agree with this. I have no photos of my wedding, not even a snapshot because we didn't have the money for a photographer and not one of the 12 guests brought a camera. A friend was going to take the photos for free but he came down with the flu. My husbands mom made the wedding cake free. I made my bouquet, the bridesmaids(my husband's baby sisters) didn't have bouquets, no boutiners(sp?) for the men, the reception was a covered dish event a month later. My wedding dress was not a traditional wedding dress, rather one I could use for work as well. The entire wedding was less than $500.
Aside of the bumpy wedding we have been married for 13 1/2 years now.
I don't mind doing budget weddings if it is truly a budget wedding. The key to doing budget weddings is to determine who really needs the discount. The people who really do need the assistance/discount are going to be much more appreciative that someone trying to get a cheap rate. This can be determined in the initial meeting without being too obvious...talk about the wedding and ask where they are getting married, are they having a dj, caterer, etc. With someone getting married at the most expensive venue in town I don't even ask about their photography budget, I show them my pacakges and if they go with me great, if not they can have the next photographer. If it is someone who is having their wedding at their church or low-no cost venue, family and friend catered, stereo from home as DJ, I will ask them how much the have budgeted for photography. I will show them my packages, even if they are above the budget, and if needed will tailor a package to fit their budget whether it is a monthly payment plan with the final payment due before the wedding or creating a less expensive package with similar options.
Simply be very selective as to whom you give the discount too. Make sure they really need it and aren't looking for a cheap price. My first 3 weddings were discounted weddings and they all ran smoothly. I knew these people and all 3 were not going to have photography because they couldn't afford it so I did it at cost to gain experience.
Message edited by author 2008-04-18 08:57:49. |
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04/18/2008 10:03:22 AM · #24 |
That's a nice story, Rebecca. When I was growing up, every wedding I attended was on the cheap. The ceremonies were followed by coffee, cake and mints in the church basement. I was in college before I went to my first wedding reception with a dinner, band, etc.
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04/19/2008 11:28:11 PM · #25 |
Well for those keeping track I was proven right about my last discount wedding just this evening. She called up appaled that I was going to charge her for getting pictures from her wedding. When she signed we clearly stated in the contract that we would be doing the day of photography for $500 anything else she would have to purchase at regular price. I think she was sort of hoping that she might be able to get around that so she called today asking for an edited CD for something like $25 and then told me that I had told her that we would be doing everything including giving them a full cd for the $500 I had charged (which BTW is about $1800 less then I would charge for a full day shooting)...!!! in the end she hung up on me spitting mad that they might now have to save up to get her wedding photos... it's good thing to because being the softy I am I was about to give her a low res cd... now unfortunately she will have to deal with my wife who is not such a softy as I... This is why I don't want to do discount anymore. want a wedding plus pictures for next to nothing? Get uncle Bob to do it!
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