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04/01/2008 06:48:18 PM · #1 |
My photo for March Free Study is not a real good one, and I would not be surprised if it goes bad... But I'm here to learn, and to learn I should know what is wrong with my photos... Sincerely, I don't expect everybody vote with consistent criteria on so many photos for this type of challenge...
So, I would like to suggest a few things:
-Stop with Free Studies. Nobody seems to vote consistently on these challenges. This could be replaced with a Monthly Challenge comprising one of the themes from the past month challenges... it would be a second chance for that challenge, and a way for limiting the number of photos on the challenge.
-The commenting system needs to be improved. A drop down with common pos and cons should help the voter to judge the photo more consistently, and this would help the author of the photo to improve and learn.
-Maybe the voting system should be divided in categories, so the voter can judge different aspects of the photo, like technically (light, focus, DOF, etc), creativity, accordance to the theme.
-This one is good: Votes from experienced photographers should have more weight than the newbies. This can be afforded with simple calcs with the voter's average score and then applying a 50% more weight to the votes from the voters that have higher average scores. And the weight of the vote could be gradually higher, proportional do the average score of the voter.
This could be easily implemented with simple changes to the site and could be implemented gradually, starting with a few challenges and then migrating the entire site to this new system.
What you say about that? |
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04/01/2008 06:50:22 PM · #2 |
| i like the idea...however things tend to get shot down quickly sorry but it probobly wont take long |
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04/01/2008 06:50:52 PM · #3 |
Originally posted by marcusvdt:
... What you say about that? |
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04/01/2008 06:52:14 PM · #4 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by marcusvdt:
... What you say about that? |
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Move over Barry, make a spot for me on your couch. :) |
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04/01/2008 06:55:09 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by marcusvdt:
... What you say about that? |
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I don't understand the meaning of your popcorn. |
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04/01/2008 06:58:39 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by marcusvdt:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by marcusvdt:
... What you say about that? |
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I don't understand the meaning of your popcorn. |
It means he's going to sit down and watch the show, cause there's probably going to be some interesting storyline coming! |
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04/01/2008 07:01:56 PM · #7 |
| I think its an interesting idea I just don't think it'll ever come into practice. |
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04/01/2008 07:02:20 PM · #8 |
Who or what is an experienced photographer? someone who has taken bad pictures for 50 years? or has submitted 50 comp images here in a year and scores an average of 6.2 or one that scores 4,8? someone who has sold images? a pro that shoots for sale houses for a living? David Bailey? Weighting votes is for me a no no - would an 'experienced' photog giving you a 1 result in you getting a negative score?
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04/01/2008 07:08:59 PM · #9 |
| or maybe site counsel could vote on the free study? I'm really fine with how things are I'm just tossing out an idea. |
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04/01/2008 07:11:36 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by marcusvdt:
... What you say about that? |
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Now I'm hungry...
I just want the DPL to start up again so I can get some useful input before a challenge. Of course that's assuming I can get on a team. |
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04/01/2008 07:18:22 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by marcusvdt:
... I would like to suggest a few things:
-Stop with Free Studies. Nobody seems to vote consistently on these challenges. This could be replaced with a Monthly Challenge comprising one of the themes from the past month challenges... it would be a second chance for that challenge, and a way for limiting the number of photos on the challenge.
-The commenting system needs to be improved. A drop down with common pos and cons should help the voter to judge the photo more consistently, and this would help the author of the photo to improve and learn.
-Maybe the voting system should be divided in categories, so the voter can judge different aspects of the photo, like technically (light, focus, DOF, etc), creativity, accordance to the theme.
-This one is good: Votes from experienced photographers should have more weight than the newbies. This can be afforded with simple calcs with the voter's average score and then applying a 50% more weight to the votes from the voters that have higher average scores. And the weight of the vote could be gradually higher, proportional do the average score of the voter.
This could be easily implemented with simple changes to the site and could be implemented gradually, starting with a few challenges and then migrating the entire site to this new system.
What you say about that? |
-Hell, no. The Free Studies are the only challenges where we can see what X shoots when X hasn't been told what to shoot.
-Hell, no. I put a lot of though and effort into comments. I wouldn't want to see them dumbed down to a slot machine content.
-Hell, no. That's already the problem. Let's look at the whole picture, and stop separating its elements.
-Do you think experienced photographers give higher scores than inexperienced ones? |
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04/01/2008 07:30:14 PM · #12 |
Free Studies rock, anyway they're only once a month. Great place to put up your best pic of the month.
This has been beat to death, but weighted voting would be terrible, IMHO. I get bombed all the time on photos that I 'like', but for the most part the cream floats to the top. There is something to be said for the 'will of the people'. Weighted voting would just complicate things, and I generally don't think a person's Average Score has much to do with the value of their opinion.
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04/01/2008 07:30:18 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by marcusvdt:
So, I would like to suggest a few things:
-Stop with Free Studies. Nobody seems to vote consistently on these challenges. This could be replaced with a Monthly Challenge comprising one of the themes from the past month challenges... it would be a second chance for that challenge, and a way for limiting the number of photos on the challenge. |
We've just had a poll on this topic: What is your opinion on Free Study challenges?
Originally posted by marcusvdt:
-The commenting system needs to be improved. A drop down with common pos and cons should help the voter to judge the photo more consistently, and this would help the author of the photo to improve and learn. |
Yes, I would second this but I'm not sure that it would encourage acurate comments. The voter could just think "I know they want a comment so.... ummm... well... I'll just click one, so they're happy (DOF, framing, colors, blurry, brightness, etc...)"
PS. I would still second this one.
Originally posted by marcusvdt:
-This one is good: Votes from experienced photographers should have more weight than the newbies. This can be afforded with simple calcs with the voter's average score and then applying a 50% more weight to the votes from the voters that have higher average scores. And the weight of the vote could be gradually higher, proportional do the average score of the voter. |
This one has been talked about and from what I remember it was kinda shot down? There are other sites out there that have established this type of voting and from what I remember SC didn't seem real enthused about this idea. I myself like the voting system the way it is.
Originally posted by marcusvdt:
This could be easily implemented with simple changes to the site and could be implemented gradually, starting with a few challenges and then migrating the entire site to this new system. |
Yes, but here again a lot of people, including myself, don't want too much change too often. Don't get me wrong and I quote here "Change is Good", just not too much.
PS. This is just my opinion. -BB
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04/01/2008 07:33:07 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by marcusvdt:
Experienced voters should have more weight |
After all the mass quantities of popcorn I consume in these threads, "more weight" is the last thing I need. That said, I'm all out. Can anyone help a brotha out?
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04/01/2008 09:03:30 PM · #15 |
Ok, I understand the conservative opinions... But how the newbies can learn from the challenge results. I can take a picture that I believe it is good and then I get only a 4.xx and I don't know what is wrong... This does not help.
I see many photography professionals here that are not able to get a ribbon. And the newbies are mostly worse in their results.
So why pay to participate on challenges of this community if I'm not able to improve my photography skills?
If you like this site the way it is today, you are probably happy to be neglected without a known reason. Or maybe you are already ok with your skills...
The voting system is simply ridiculous like it is. Someone that does not know anything about photography may give you a 1, without explaining the reason, and this happens even on ribbonners?
The commenting system is worse. The guy gives you a 1-4 and you don't know why. The voter could say simply he does not like the photo in general. But it would point a reason. I think that giving the voter some pre-defined comments, should help the commenter and the author of the photo. This would not eliminate the option for free comments, I would not like to limit the comments only to the pre-defined ones.
The weighting, should enhance the quality of the votes. Voters that have higher average scores are usually more capable of judging the photos with more criteria. Newbies usually look only to the general look of the photos, their judgements are usually more superficial and less criterious. The weighting system should be able to give the correct weight for the votes that are in theory more compliant to the quality of the photos.
Obviously, my thinkings are what I thought today and they could be evoluted to something better. But I find it extremely necessary that the voting and commenting system be enhanced so we feel the scores that we receive will really reflect the quality of our photos, and also that the comments are usefull for something. |
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04/01/2008 09:31:54 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by Donna21:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by marcusvdt:
... What you say about that? |
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Now I'm hungry...
I just want the DPL to start up again so I can get some useful input before a challenge. Of course that's assuming I can get on a team. |
Best damn answer ever. At least that way you get SOME input as to why your shot sucks. |
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04/01/2008 09:39:58 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by marcusvdt:
Ok, I understand the conservative opinions... But how the newbies can learn from the challenge results. I can take a picture that I believe it is good and then I get only a 4.xx and I don't know what is wrong... This does not help.
I see many photography professionals here that are not able to get a ribbon. And the newbies are mostly worse in their results.
So why pay to participate on challenges of this community if I'm not able to improve my photography skills? |
Marcus - The challenges are just one aspect of DPC. Honestly, the challenges are not the best place for truly learning; I look at them more as a place to try out what I've learned, or to toss out something new, or even just enter a photo because I really like it and cross my fingers that others will too.
What I've taken away from entering challenges is confidence. Yes, confidence - even when my photos sometimes get beat down on voting. I've tried so many different things, shooting for numerous subjects/ideas that I'd never have tried on my own probably - that I really do feel like I could take a photo of just about anything if needed in various conditions.
Learning on DPChallenge, IMO, comes from thinking about a new theme each week. Learning comes from posting images in forums and asking for feedback. Learning comes from participating in the various monthly side challenges. Learning comes from commenting on other peoples photos in the challenges.
There are a mulititude of avenues to gain knowledge here. Depending solely on feedback from challenge entries for learning will leave you yearning for more, most certainly... |
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04/01/2008 09:43:44 PM · #18 |
| Marcus, one of the best ways of getting critical feedback is is to post the photo to a new thread (once voting has finished, that is) and ask. People tend to be much freer, more thorough, and more honest with critiques if they know that feedback is genuinely wanted. |
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04/01/2008 09:46:04 PM · #19 |
Why should anyone's vote count for more than anyone else's?
Every vote is an opinion and everyone has one and just because someone is new (to the site) does not mean that 1) they are new to photography; 2) are inexperienced judging art; or 3) have an opinion that is of less value to the photographer than any other.
... and furthermore ;o)
Those new to the site and/or the art of photography bring a new perspective ....
Message edited by author 2008-04-01 21:47:41. |
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04/01/2008 10:41:41 PM · #20 |
So after all your comments, a question rises:
What is the purpose of participating on DP Challenges ???
I suppose you want to know the opinion of others about your photos right?
So why we stay here, participating on challenges, if we know many voters are not voting sicerely? The comments may not be sincere also, but they always give me a tip about something...
The scores, even the higher ones, always speak less than 1 single construtive critique. I'm not here for scores.
Please notice that I'm talking about having more comments on low votes... |
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04/01/2008 11:14:09 PM · #21 |
OK I'll bite....The site isn't named DP Learning Center. It's DP-Challenge. Yet, with the talent here, you can learn a ton. If you look at DrAchoo comments after a challenge he will give his thought process and processing steps of his entry. All you have to do is ask for some help and you'll get a ton of advice from this great community. As the good advice given above.
Please give to Arts cause. This subject will never die.....Lol
Message edited by author 2008-04-01 23:15:23. |
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04/01/2008 11:23:27 PM · #22 |
Marcus, Side challenges are a great way to get the kind of comments and suggestions that you are asking about, and to have your images viewed, not in comparison to others in a specific challenge, but on their own artistic or creative and technical merit.
You get to meet people on the site that way too, and it makes it a lot nicer place for all involved.
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04/01/2008 11:31:27 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by marcusvdt:
-This one is good: Votes from experienced photographers should have more weight than the newbies. This can be afforded with simple calcs with the voter's average score and then applying a 50% more weight to the votes from the voters that have higher average scores. And the weight of the vote could be gradually higher, proportional do the average score of the voter. |
So the members whose scores most consistently match the community's norms will have their votes counting for more than the members who wander outside the box? End result: further dumbing-down of DPC scores into the plastic-fantastic range of mouth-watering eye candy.
I spent my working lifetime as a respected architectural photographer, I taught photography at the University of California, I worked alongside Ansel Adams for a short time, I have been exhibited in museums and galleries in addition to my commercial success (all of this was a while ago, of course, I'm retired now), BUT....
Because I choose to indulge my fancies, to wander outside the normal parameters of what appeals to the mass of voters, now I am to be sentenced to having my vote marginalized because my average vote received is like 5.5?
I don't think so, sorry...
R. |
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04/01/2008 11:40:24 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by marcusvdt:
...Please notice that I'm talking about having more comments on low votes... |
I can understand your plea. I don't at all agree that more critical ("don't do this, try this instead")l comments on low votes (I'm assuming you don't mean pictures that are actually quite good but held in low esteem by the voters) will benefit the photographer. It is all too easy to tear a poor shot to shreds. To help someone avoid an obvious pitfall is more harmlessly done in the forums, as others have said before. The best way to learn though is to provide for more and better comments on the best photos instead, because this is where the learning can be profitable, especially if these are photos than don't need fixin'.
Message edited by author 2008-04-01 23:48:10. |
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04/01/2008 11:44:21 PM · #25 |
Not enough popcorn in the whole world to give experienced voters more weight.
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