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03/29/2008 07:34:26 AM · #176 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Gordon:
Emotional connection to a place or subject. The joy of the process of taking images. To work through emotional issues. To empower the participant. To help approach fears or widen your experiences. To overcome shyness. To meet people. To see more. As a reason to travel. To hang on the wall. To remember an event. To remember a person. To have fun? |
Well sure, but other than those? ;-P Your photo blog doesn't bespeak one who doesn't care what others think. |
My blog mostly speaks about using photography to move through a variety of personal issues and fears. There's other stuff, but that's what's at the core of it. What it isn't about is an ongoing search for mass appeal or popularity.
I don't think stock images are bad as such. Just that they aren't the only thing to do, or the only thing to want to do. Same reason I don't put any images up on stock sites any more. Not because they didn't sell, but because doing it almost made me stop using a camera all together. |
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03/29/2008 08:34:01 AM · #177 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
Ken mentioned earlier that it's hard not to learn here - I'll agree with that, but for some (me in particular), it's VERY hard to learn how to do "popular". |
I don't remember what thread it was but Shannon had a list of what to do to get a high score. Basically just do this:
Challenge Relevancy
Make sure you clearly communicate the challenge connection so people young, old and from all walks of life understand it in an instant. However, try to stay away from the most obvious interpretations unless you feel like you are capable of outperform those with the same idea.
Technicals
Good technicals are a must. It's better to oversharpen than to undersharpen, over contrast than to under contrast, etc, etc. In addition, make sure critical detail can be seen by all. If this detail is in the highlights or shadows then make sure you are not pushing the limit as to what people can view. Remember not everyone is using a calibrated monitor.
Intent
If you tilt your horizon for effect make it obvious (i.e. make it an extreme tilt) so you leave no doubt that it was intended. Extreme is always better than middle of the road. Just look at all the fisheye shots that do well.
Wow factor
Do something to stand out from the pack. This could be your subject, concept (i.e. communicate creativity), technicals or processing. Just be sure something says wow to the viewer.
Other tips to improve your score
- Full color is better than b/w in most cases. The more colorful the better. Think about what colors go best together and pre-plan your shot accordingly. If you go with b/w make sure your tones are to die for. Duotones offer the best of both worlds plus they often allow you to maintain more detail in the 150kb and 200kb limits since their file sizes are smaller compared to full color images.
- Every detail counts. Remove all artifacts, halos, hot spots and other undesirables. If it doesn't support your composition then remove it, or better yet avoid them in the first place. I can't tell you how many photos have things that could have easily been removed but wasn't. Why leave something in there for the "distraction police" to bust you on?
- Don't choose a subject that might offend unless you plan on hitting a home run with it (i.e. lots of 10s to balance out the low votes).
- Have some meaning/communicate a story and don't make it title dependent. While this alone won't win you a ribbon it sure can get you some higher votes and favs.
- Keep things simple. For example, a solid color background does better than a complex one even if the latter makes for a better photo in general. The key is communication. You want the lightbulb in the voter's head to turn on as fast as possible so they can understand it and give it a good score before they move on.
Message edited by author 2008-03-29 08:47:27.
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03/29/2008 09:08:02 AM · #178 |
Originally posted by yanko:
I don't remember what thread it was but Shannon had a list of what to do to get a high score. Basically just do this:
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This place has got to be an excellent training ground for anyone doing commercial photography for advertising.
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03/29/2008 10:21:39 AM · #179 |
| Excellent advice, Richard, and everything I just shot today goes against all of it. To the bin with it!! :-) |
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03/29/2008 11:44:34 AM · #180 |
Originally posted by undieyatch:
Originally posted by mad_brewer:
Originally posted by undieyatch:
I have no problems voting a picture higher than mine - mad_brewer
I have no issues voting on something better than mine - Hot_Pixel
My averaged score received is not the scale to judge others by. - yospiff
I won't believe anyone who says these things - only the SC knows for sure.
These are photographs, not politics.
There must be a method for member transparency of others votes, (of course after the challenge is tallied)
I vote no shroud. |
The last challenge I voted in (Harsh Environments) I gave 10 votes higher or at mine, including the blue and red ribbon winners. I came in fourth.
In the last FS, I gave 18 higher than mine and 33 votes of 7, where my final score was just a hair above 7. I gave the blue ribbon a 10; had I given it a 6 I would have gotten the blue ribbon.
I can go on, but hopefully by now you can see that some of us can give votes that are deserved. |
Your scores are not visible to me. I still don't believe you. |
I suppose I could send you some screenshots, but I suspect you wouldn't believe that either. |
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03/29/2008 11:55:30 AM · #181 |
I think he means voters in general, not just you.
But out of curiousity, I went back to look at my highest finish of late, which was in Blurry Mess. I finished with a 6.1. I voted 53 higher (7 or above) and it looks like 100 equal to (a 6), so I voted 153 - more than half the challenge - equal to or better than me. I finished 13th. I really need to work on my voting.... :-) Edit to add that my top four picks in that challenge came in 6th, 9th, 75th, and 89th. I REALLY need to work on my voting!
Message edited by author 2008-03-29 11:59:24. |
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03/29/2008 11:59:08 AM · #182 |
Originally posted by undieyatch:
Originally posted by mad_brewer:
In the last FS, I gave 18 higher than mine and 33 votes of 7, where my final score was just a hair above 7. I gave the blue ribbon a 10; had I given it a 6 I would have gotten the blue ribbon. |
Your scores are not visible to me. I still don't believe you. |
He actually gave 34 votes of 7. Everything else is true. |
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03/29/2008 12:03:42 PM · #183 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Wow factor
Do something to stand out from the pack. This could be your subject, concept (i.e. communicate creativity), technicals or processing. Just be sure something says wow to the viewer. |
Mostly it's technicals and processing. Shannon and De Sousa's high concept ribbons are the exception, not the rule. Just look at the front page. I only see one shot out of nine with any conceptual surprise: a reflection in a hubcap. The blue ribbon of harsh environment has some daring high-contrast processing. The rest of the nine have no wow. The guy at the piano is a great shot and doesn't need a wow. I'm just saying that the "Wow Factor" is overrated as a way to ribbon. In fact, usually it will backfire, and often requires "technicals" even better than a shot without a wow. Best not to take the risk, if ribbons are all that you're into. |
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03/29/2008 01:00:31 PM · #184 |
Richard's post was probably more extensive than my old thread, but I'm going to disagree with the B&W part. Color is NOT necessarily better than B&W, and in fact there's often a disproportionate number of B&W images among the ribbons. It's just a matter of what works better for a given image. If you shoot models with mismatched outfits or a cityscape with lots of distractions, then B&W could be more effective. I generally prefer a slight duotone for a warmer look than straight B&W, but that's just me.
Originally posted by posthumous:
I'm just saying that the "Wow Factor" is overrated as a way to ribbon. |
I guess that depends on what you consider "wow." I think THE most important thing you can do for a high score is to provoke a positive response from the viewer. It might be humor, lighting, emotion, expression or some other factor, but the object IMO is to get that response. If you can prompt a smile or make their eyes widen, the voter WILL reach for the higher end of the scale. An intimate expression or humorous event might not be "wow," but it does strike a chord that draws interest, comments, favorites and high scores. The middle of the pack in every challenge is littered with entries that meet the challenge and are technically fine, but have no story or reason to make the viewer stop and look again. The voters looks, say "yeah, OK whatever," hits the 5 button and moves on. You don't want to be in that no-man's land, where you take a decent shot that meets the challenge, but get no comments because nobody cares. Make them care and the score will take care of itself. |
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03/29/2008 01:09:43 PM · #185 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by undieyatch:
Originally posted by mad_brewer:
In the last FS, I gave 18 higher than mine and 33 votes of 7, where my final score was just a hair above 7. I gave the blue ribbon a 10; had I given it a 6 I would have gotten the blue ribbon. |
Your scores are not visible to me. I still don't believe you. |
He actually gave 34 votes of 7. Everything else is true. |
I hate to say it Shannon, but you have put yourself into an awkward position. By painting "regular ribbon winners" with broad strokes based on information only you have access to you have now cast doubt on our ability to be fair. The posting between brewer and undieyatch is proof of that. So now either you continue to speak in generalities and understand damage has been done or you name names and clear those who are innocent. Neither seems that great an option... |
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03/29/2008 01:34:10 PM · #186 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
So now either you continue to speak in generalities and understand damage has been done or you name names and clear those who are innocent. Neither seems that great an option... |
Or maybe the few people doing it will read this thread and knock it off. |
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03/29/2008 02:18:08 PM · #187 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
I only see one shot out of nine with any conceptual surprise: a reflection in a hubcap. |
Engine casing. |
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03/29/2008 03:05:58 PM · #188 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
If you can prompt a smile or make their eyes widen, the voter WILL reach for the higher end of the scale. An intimate expression or humorous event might not be "wow," but it does strike a chord that draws interest, comments, favorites and high scores. The middle of the pack in every challenge is littered with entries that meet the challenge and are technically fine, but have no story or reason to make the viewer stop and look again. The voters looks, say "yeah, OK whatever," hits the 5 button and moves on. You don't want to be in that no-man's land, where you take a decent shot that meets the challenge, but get no comments because nobody cares. Make them care and the score will take care of itself. |
The middle of the pack also has a lot of shots that do evoke a smile or a reaction, but may not have the technicals to garner a higher vote. There are a lot of quiet "wow" (lowercase) shots that unfortunately also reside in no man's land. |
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03/29/2008 03:22:18 PM · #189 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by undieyatch:
Originally posted by mad_brewer:
In the last FS, I gave 18 higher than mine and 33 votes of 7, where my final score was just a hair above 7. I gave the blue ribbon a 10; had I given it a 6 I would have gotten the blue ribbon. |
Your scores are not visible to me. I still don't believe you. |
He actually gave 34 votes of 7. Everything else is true. |
I hate to say it Shannon, but you have put yourself into an awkward position. By painting "regular ribbon winners" with broad strokes based on information only you have access to you have now cast doubt on our ability to be fair. The posting between brewer and undieyatch is proof of that. So now either you continue to speak in generalities and understand damage has been done or you name names and clear those who are innocent. Neither seems that great an option... |
I think it's been about a year since I last voted in a challenge, so I want to be added to the innocent group.
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03/29/2008 03:31:01 PM · #190 |
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
I think it's been about a year since I last voted in a challenge, so I want to be added to the innocent group. |
It might also be interesting to know how many of the multiple ribbon winners like Mr Slip here don't vote at all. Seems a bit all take/no give, but that could just be me. |
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03/29/2008 03:33:14 PM · #191 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
I think it's been about a year since I last voted in a challenge, so I want to be added to the innocent group. |
It might also be interesting to know how many of the multiple ribbon winners like Mr Slip here don't vote at all. Seems a bit all take/no give, but that could just be me. |
Yes, I'm all take & no give, but at least I know I'll never be guilty of any score-tampering, intended or not. I do make the occassional comments, so I'm not a complete and total ass. Just a mid-grade jerk. :-P
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03/29/2008 06:15:52 PM · #192 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by yanko:
Wow factor
Do something to stand out from the pack. This could be your subject, concept (i.e. communicate creativity), technicals or processing. Just be sure something says wow to the viewer. |
Mostly it's technicals and processing. Shannon and De Sousa's high concept ribbons are the exception, not the rule. Just look at the front page. I only see one shot out of nine with any conceptual surprise: a reflection in a hubcap. The blue ribbon of harsh environment has some daring high-contrast processing. The rest of the nine have no wow. The guy at the piano is a great shot and doesn't need a wow. I'm just saying that the "Wow Factor" is overrated as a way to ribbon. In fact, usually it will backfire, and often requires "technicals" even better than a shot without a wow. Best not to take the risk, if ribbons are all that you're into. |
The pianist photo does have wow factor at least for me. I found that the reflection reminded me of the major and minor key scales for some reason. Maybe it's because the reflection is much darker and the subject lighter. The contrast is also a bit flat on the subject but it works when contrasted with the reflection. Even if I'm reading way too much into it, the inclusion of the reflection hints at something more and that's what I liked about the photo.
So in short, I wasn't impressed by the technicals but by the choices made. Nothing impresses me more than a photographer who is married to the details.
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03/29/2008 06:25:41 PM · #193 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Richard's post was probably more extensive than my old thread, but I'm going to disagree with the B&W part. Color is NOT necessarily better than B&W, and in fact there's often a disproportionate number of B&W images among the ribbons. It's just a matter of what works better for a given image. If you shoot models with mismatched outfits or a cityscape with lots of distractions, then B&W could be more effective. I generally prefer a slight duotone for a warmer look than straight B&W, but that's just me. |
I agree. The reason why I said color is better is because I feel it conveys intent better. Sometimes when you convert to black and white the voter thinks that you did so because you screwed up the white balance. True if it looks great in b/w then you're fine and I said as much in that post. Also, having strong colors makes your photo stand out in the thumbnail page and in general. It's not as easy to do that with a b/w photo.
Anyway, it would be interested to see the percentage of color vs b/w ribbon winnners but just judging by the highest score page it seems color is running away with it. Not to disrepect anybody but  librodo's "Stories of Her Life" and jjbeguin's Blurred Interlude should be a lot higher up that page then they are but I suspect they are not because they are not exploding in color. I think if you ask 100 people on the street what they prefer most would say color.
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03/29/2008 06:39:12 PM · #194 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by goldenhawkofky:
Originally posted by scalvert:
I wonder why ribbon winners scoring 8+ get so many votes of 4 or 5, even though such an image requires obvious superiority. |
Wow I was under the impression we were supposed to vote, as individual dpcer's, on images accoding to what we, as individuals, think an image deserves. Not what we think an image deserves because of some supposed "obvious superiority" that is reflected in the fact that in image gets a ribbon. |
With an entry that scores 8+, meeting the challenge shouldn't even be in doubt, and technical skill is a given. It'd be darn near impossible for an individual to justify how an image like this could possibly deserve a vote below 6.
A vote on the "bad" end of the scale for something like that is just plain dishonest IMO. |
Blatantly deserves a 5 or 6.
Message edited by author 2008-03-29 18:39:22. |
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03/29/2008 07:56:57 PM · #195 |
Originally posted by yanko:
I found that the reflection reminded me of the major and minor key scales for some reason. |
wonderful interpretation. both you and shannon have expanded the meaning of "wow factor" so much as to render it essentially meaningless, especially as advice. |
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03/29/2008 08:26:41 PM · #196 |
| OK so lets propose a new method of Judging. 3 value system. As a Whitewater Kayaker we could never rate a river based on a 1 to 10 system. Just as in college we never voted this simple on Art of any media. Now what three factors would we all come to agree on? I propose Technical Aspect, Artistic Appeal, and the third does it meet the challenge. |
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03/29/2008 08:38:46 PM · #197 |
Originally posted by mad_brewer:
Originally posted by undieyatch:
Originally posted by mad_brewer:
Originally posted by undieyatch:
I have no problems voting a picture higher than mine - mad_brewer
I have no issues voting on something better than mine - Hot_Pixel
My averaged score received is not the scale to judge others by. - yospiff
I won't believe anyone who says these things - only the SC knows for sure.
These are photographs, not politics.
There must be a method for member transparency of others votes, (of course after the challenge is tallied)
I vote no shroud. |
The last challenge I voted in (Harsh Environments) I gave 10 votes higher or at mine, including the blue and red ribbon winners. I came in fourth.
In the last FS, I gave 18 higher than mine and 33 votes of 7, where my final score was just a hair above 7. I gave the blue ribbon a 10; had I given it a 6 I would have gotten the blue ribbon.
I can go on, but hopefully by now you can see that some of us can give votes that are deserved. |
Your scores are not visible to me. I still don't believe you. |
I suppose I could send you some screenshots, but I suspect you wouldn't believe that either. |
Though entertaining, interesting, and actually fun to read - the clutter of pleas of not guilty, nor limited proprietary strategies for voting (including shannon's own well meaning, & admirable, though rigid recommendations) provide no solution to shannon's admitted bias against certain individuals & premise of concealed aberrant voting patterns. |
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03/29/2008 09:14:09 PM · #198 |
Originally posted by coronamv:
OK so lets propose a new method of Judging. 3 value system. As a Whitewater Kayaker we could never rate a river based on a 1 to 10 system. Just as in college we never voted this simple on Art of any media. Now what three factors would we all come to agree on? I propose Technical Aspect, Artistic Appeal, and the third does it meet the challenge. |
I like the present system: Do you think it is any good or not ?
Infinite variety. Simple to apply. Easy to understand.
Message edited by author 2008-03-29 21:16:27. |
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03/29/2008 09:33:41 PM · #199 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
I like the present system: Do you think it is any good or not ?
Infinite variety. Simple to apply. Easy to understand. |
Having followed the thread, I agree with Gordon.
Consider:
Would you describe the rainbow you saw as the refraction of light? |
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03/29/2008 09:53:11 PM · #200 |
Originally posted by undieyatch:
Though entertaining, interesting, and actually fun to read - the clutter of pleas of not guilty, nor limited proprietary strategies for voting (including shannon's own well meaning, & admirable, though rigid recommendations) provide no solution to shannon's admitted bias against certain individuals & premise of concealed aberrant voting patterns. |
Hey wait! YOU'VE won two ribbons. Maybe Shannon was talking about you! (eyes undieyatch suspiciously)... |
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