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03/28/2008 07:43:58 PM · #126 |
Originally posted by OldCoyote:
Shannon made a very valid point, and was willing to bring it up for discussion... probably knowing it would leave him vulnerable to attack from you (specifc "you", not generic... and "you" know who you are) ignorant slobs who have nothing better to do than argue over semantics and play games. It is what it is. Let it go at that.
I think you guys would complain about a loaf of bread. Shannon gets it... as can cleary be seen by the quality, creativity and heart of his work. He's earned a right, IMO, to ask a valid question. Any guy who's willing (i.e., has the gonads) to dress up in a Cat In The Hat suit and read books to his son's classmates is a hero in my book. Society could use more like him. So... WTF, Gordon, Yanko... don't you have something better to do with your time? Get over it! You sound like a couple of spoiled little 3-year-olds! |
He asked a question. He got a lot of answers about why people might not vote images he thinks should be high scores as high scores.
You are probably the first to turn to personal attacks, for no real reason. So don't you have something better to do ? |
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03/28/2008 07:47:59 PM · #127 |
Originally posted by OldCoyote:
Shannon made a very valid point, and was willing to bring it up for discussion... probably knowing it would leave him vulnerable to attack from you (specifc "you", not generic... and "you" know who you are) ignorant slobs who have nothing better to do than argue over semantics and play games. It is what it is. Let it go at that.
I think you guys would complain about a loaf of bread. Shannon gets it... as can cleary be seen by the quality, creativity and heart of his work. He's earned a right, IMO, to ask a valid question. Any guy who's willing (i.e., has the gonads) to dress up in a Cat In The Hat suit and read books to his son's classmates is a hero in my book. Society could use more like him. So... WTF, Gordon, Yanko... don't you have something better to do with your time? Get over it! You sound like a couple of spoiled little 3-year-olds! |
Erm.. this thread started out with a solicitation to opinions as far as I'm concerned, as most threads do. He got those opinions. It would be a pretty pointless exercise to start a thread like this with no expectation of alternate opinions.
Actually, I find your response intriguing, in that you seem to be the only one with such a hostile reaction. To what end, I wonder? I've enjoyed this thread and its many positions. It's been very enlightening. |
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03/28/2008 07:50:11 PM · #128 |
I think the only difference, Gordon, is that you are just much more careful to delicately mask your personal attacks. Really. You're arguing for the sake of arguing. It's been pissing me off. Right now the best thing I have to do is to get all over your Texass. Maybe you'll get tired of it. Maybe you'll take your meds like a good little boy. See? How do you like it when someone justs rides roughshod all over your space for no good reason? Pretty childish, isn't it? Actually, I knew a kid named Gordon when I was in high school. Just never really liked him much. Using your logic, that's enough reason not to like you.
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03/28/2008 07:51:18 PM · #129 |
| Uh, let's discuss the topic and not each other ... |
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03/28/2008 07:54:46 PM · #130 |
You would be absolutely amazed to what end, Louis. But I will show restraint. I had joined this site looking for something entirely different from what I found here. My bad. Nuff said. My apologies. Having pointlessy attacked Gordon again and interrupted this great exchange of noble ideas, I'll excuse myself now. Sorry to barge in unexpectedly like this. It's your game, not mine. Old Coyote... out. (Oh, and, sorry Gordon, I guess something you said just rubbed me wrong. Have a nice life. Really.)
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03/28/2008 08:05:43 PM · #131 |
Originally posted by OldCoyote:
You're arguing for the sake of arguing. |
Really, I'm discussing for the sake of understanding. My own, mainly.
There's an ignore button on every thread, it isn't like you have to read it.
and I'm not Texan. Funny how we jump to conclusions. |
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03/28/2008 08:13:34 PM · #132 |
Well, this has gotten into a lot of interesting things, but I think the point Shannon made at the start was that there are some people who are voting LOWER when they are in the challenge than they do when they are not in a challenge. In other words, it looks like a strategy.
It's an easy trap to fall into, especially for a new person at DPC. Hypothetically, if you vote other photos higher than you are scoring in that challenge, are you actually voting against yourself? What if you that person beats you, and by the very vote you cast for them! GASP!
Well for the uninitiated (and even some of the initiated), let me say that if you each get 100 votes in a challenge (which is low), the difference between giving someone a 6 and a 10 is .04 in their score. It's not likely to make a difference. (And it's only .02 for 200 votes.) And if you think they might deserve a high score, chances are others do, so they are going to beat you by a lot more than .04 anyway :)
So if you think they might deserve a 10, which might be more fitting to go along with your comment "Exceptional shot! I really love this." than the 6 you ACTUALLY gave them, then splurge and give it to them. There's plenty of 9's and 10's to go around...DPC won't run out.
Likewise, if a shot is really worthless in your opinion, I don't have any problem if you give it a 1. But if you are true to the 1-10 scale so that you believe a shot is so bad it deserves the worst score possible, then likewise, I would expect to see that you also believe some shots are good enough to get the best score on the scale (10).
Of course, it's easy to also fall into the trap of only voting the middle ground. Personally, I don't like to vote 1-3, because a photo that probably deserves a 1 to 3 probably is a beginner, and it would be better to encourage them with a constructive comment. On the other hand, an 8-10 without even a comment can be great encouragement and rewarding to the photographer, letting them know they are doing something people like! (Favorites during a challenge are great for that too.)
Why would you hold that back by only within the range 4-7 or 3-6?
Message edited by author 2008-03-28 20:13:49. |
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03/28/2008 08:16:54 PM · #133 |
"I'm sorry I had a fight in the middle of your Black Panther Party." -- Forrest Gump
Gentleman... and ladies... I'm truly sorry! In all honesty and humility, I suffer from mental illness, and this has NOT been one of my better days. Some really painful stuff going on. Didn't have the "ability" if you will to click "exit." Missed a very important appointment today because I got caught up in this thread. Bottom line is that I'm probably not a very good candidate for membership in dpc. Try as I might. Had some delusions about where this might all go, and I was very, very wrong. And very wrong to jump in and flame you guys. Again, my sincere apologies. Thank you for handling this as well as you have. You're to be commended. I'm just old and crazy.
Trust me, I could tell you some stories. But I won't. Please forgive me. I'll do my best to keep my nose outta where it doesn't belong from now on, or maybe just quit the dpc thing. Doesn't seem to be good for my mental health. Again, so very sorry. -- Old Coyote, with tail between legs...
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03/28/2008 08:23:01 PM · #134 |
I have really enjoyed this thread and felt it is a wonderful discussion with a nice exchange of ideas and thoughts.  OldCoyote, we all have bad days and do things we regret. Don't quite DPC over this, and to be honest most who have bad days don't apologize, so it says a lot about who you are. Trevor~ |
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03/28/2008 08:24:08 PM · #135 |
Originally posted by nshapiro:
Well, this has gotten into a lot of interesting things, but I think the point Shannon made at the start was that there are some people who are voting LOWER when they are in the challenge than they do when they are not in a challenge. In other words, it looks like a strategy.
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Totally agree and thats the reason I didn't vote in fences as I felt my image should have scored higher and knew I'd vote peeps down because of my low score. So peeps, when I'm scoring well so do you :)
imho this is a good fence shot but the masses say it sucks and decided not to take my upset out on those that submitted.
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03/28/2008 09:05:31 PM · #136 |
Scalvert, Great post. Sorry, didn't read all the responses. I vote on each image on it's own merit, not trying to pick a winner. You know it's funny, at the end of the challenge. Most of the time the ribbion images are in the top ten or at least top 20 by order of my vote. I vote when I'm in a challenge and when I don't enter......I been wanting to say that for some time now....(If I missed the boat of this thread, sorry)
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03/28/2008 09:11:45 PM · #137 |
How to rate photos that are better than yours?
Simple. I hit a button higher than what I would give mine.
As to why ribbon winners get 4 and 5...well....can't like every photo. Even the best photos are not appealing to someone.
But, thats just me. Simple. I know that if I put a 1 on a photo, just because its better than mine, it just won't matter with the scoring. I've seen the distributions.... |
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03/28/2008 09:32:02 PM · #138 |
I mentioned this in another thread.
Avg (all users): 7.3172
Avg (commenters): 8.2778
Avg (camera): 7.3081
Avg (no camera): 9.0000
I would get rid of Avg (camera) and (no camera)
and I would add Avg (participant in challenge) and (nonparticipant)
I think it would answer the main question of the thread and be very interesting.
(btw these are slippy's score and unfortunately not mine)
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03/28/2008 09:43:57 PM · #139 |
Originally posted by cloudsme:
I mentioned this in another thread.
Avg (all users): 7.3172
Avg (commenters): 8.2778
Avg (camera): 7.3081
Avg (no camera): 9.0000
I would get rid of Avg (camera) and (no camera)
and I would add Avg (participant in challenge) and (nonparticipant)
I think it would answer the main question of the thread and be very interesting.
(btw these are slippy's score and unfortunately not mine) |
I like your idea. |
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03/28/2008 09:51:55 PM · #140 |
Originally posted by cloudsme:
I mentioned this in another thread. ... |
If you haven't already, I'd post that in the Website Suggestions forum. Good idea! |
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03/28/2008 10:20:59 PM · #141 |
I only had time to read about the first ten posts, but I was surprised to hear that anyone votes on images relative to how their's is doing - that seems like a legitimate argument for not allowing voting on challenges you entered, but I am opposed to that idea. I may be in the minority of people that almost forget they are even in the competition they are voting on when voting. My entry has nothing to do with and no influence on my vote on other images. Maybe I don't care enough about winning.
I also don't necessarily vote based on comparison to other images in the challenge - that seems more like a ranking system. I simply vote the scale and score the image based on it's own merit and admittedly the score (good or bad) will usually weigh most heavily on its initial impact on me (good or bad). On the positive side, it could be visual wow factor (or eye candy) or could be how perfectly it fits my idea of the challenge topic. On the negative, it could be one particular technical aspect (too dark, too small, etc) or dare I say, DNMC! I will admit that I do occasionally go through the thumbnail page and make some adjustments after voting on all the images and at those times I am obviously comparison voting.
Scores are what they are and some folks are here to win - more power to ya - some people are here to learn - hard to fail at that - some people are here to entertain and be entertained.
Most people know which camp I'm in. Not that any of what I said furthers this topic. Maybe I should just go get some popcorn.
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03/28/2008 10:25:11 PM · #142 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Actually, according to the thread title, this thread started off primarily as something else... |
How to rate photos that are better than yours
Once you've defined 'better', then we can go on from there. |
Let's define better as "photos that you yourself recognize as superior to your own." I am specifically referring to people who vote nothing higher than a 6 when their score is a 6.5 (and vote normally in challenges they don't enter), those who comment, "I love this composition. Excellent all around! 9" and then actually give it a 4, or those who manage to vote all the ribbon winners 3 or less and all the lousy entries 7 or higher (but only in challenges that they enter). Is that clear enough? I am NOT saying that everyone has to vote certain photos a certain way, but these are obvious situations where the photographer knows full well what a "good" photo is, and it has nothing to do with taste or artistic mandate.
On the point of appeal, maybe this will explain it better... I've often heard DPCers give the advice to "just shoot what you like." I think the intent is noble, but I strongly disagree with the wording. Think about what happens the first time your novice friends or relatives get a camera... they shoot what they like: their kids, their dogs, sunsets, flowers, etc.. If that's your approach, then you're not likely to improve beyond them because let's face it- unless you're Angelina Jolie, nobody wants to see a snapshot of your kids. When DPCers say, "shoot what you like" I think what they REALLY mean is "shoot what you admire"...what appeals to you. That's the key IMO. You should study the types and techniques of photos that you admire and figure out what makes them so appealing to you. In doing so, you are going to discover composition, color, depth of field, applied lighting and all those other things that make a photo more intriguing than a novice's snapshot. As it turns out, those also happen to be important considerations for stock photography, and the elements that make photos compelling for you generally turn out to hold appeal for others, too. The net result of this is that the more experienced photographer might THINK he's only working on a technique or personal style for his own personal appeal, but in soliciting feedback he's still trying to figure out what appeals to others, too.
There are, of course, exceptions: groundbreakers like Picasso or Monet who totally break the rules and go off in a completely new direction. They don't care for the opinions of others, and their work is often poorly regarded at first because it's so different. There may be a few of those types within our ranks, but from what I've seen the vast majority who claim they don't shoot for mass appeal really just don't shoot specifically for the challenge topic (a very different prospect). They'll enter a photo that they happened to take for some other reason that could hold a tenuous connection to the challenge and then fall on their sword as a martyr for their art or feign indifference when it doesn't score well. Sometimes it IS a shot taken specifically for the challenge, but some unique lens flare or unintended motion produced an interesting effect that about half the voters will take as a flaw. That's all well and good, but don't turn your nose up at "stock" photos because more often than not the alternative style you like would make a pretty good stock photo too, for one very simple reason: that which appeals most to you is that which marketers targeting your interests would most like to use to sell to you. |
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03/28/2008 10:33:39 PM · #143 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
But there are more experimental approaches: do your own thing and see how it scores. Try something new and see what reaction it gets. |
I'll sometimes do that. Throw it up against the wall and see if it sticks. It can be an interesting experiment sometimes. Sometimes I will be trying for a high score, (Not expecting to ribbon, but competing against my own previous high points), but other times I am just trying to get reactions and comments, like with this one:
When I entered this one into "Peace", I didn't expect to get better than a low 5, but I was making a point and the comments told me that it achieved that:
High scores are not everything, however I agree that just by the nature of this site, popularity is what is rewarded. One thing i try to do is to use the comments I receive as a guide. If I get a mediocre score, but all the comments are positive, then I am fairly sure I had a good entry, but it did not have popular appeal. You have to interpret the whole thing.
Message edited by author 2008-03-28 22:47:34.
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03/28/2008 10:40:19 PM · #144 |
I can't say that I can compare the images I am scoring with the score my own image is generating since I don't have my scores on... ever.
As it relates to the scores, I tend to score images in relation to each other in a particular challenge and as such it is quite possible that there may be a substantial number of 5 scores or lower.
Ray |
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03/28/2008 10:46:22 PM · #145 |
Originally posted by undieyatch:
I have no problems voting a picture higher than mine - mad_brewer
I have no issues voting on something better than mine - Hot_Pixel
My averaged score received is not the scale to judge others by. - yospiff
I won't believe anyone who says these things - only the SC knows for sure.
These are photographs, not politics.
There must be a method for member transparency of others votes, (of course after the challenge is tallied)
I vote no shroud. |
The last challenge I voted in (Harsh Environments) I gave 10 votes higher or at mine, including the blue and red ribbon winners. I came in fourth.
In the last FS, I gave 18 higher than mine and 33 votes of 7, where my final score was just a hair above 7. I gave the blue ribbon a 10; had I given it a 6 I would have gotten the blue ribbon.
I can go on, but hopefully by now you can see that some of us can give votes that are deserved.
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03/28/2008 11:14:43 PM · #146 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
With an entry that scores 8+, meeting the challenge shouldn't even be in doubt, and technical skill is a given. It'd be darn near impossible for an individual to justify how an image like this could possibly deserve a vote below 6.
A vote on the "bad" end of the scale for something like that is just plain dishonest IMO. |
I trust the voters to vote honestly on my images. After the vote scrubbers clear all the crap they can find, the voters are always right. I've gotten to where I can usually identify an image that will be in the top ten. But........ sometimes I miss. I use each one of these misses as an opportunity to really study the image. What did other voters see that I didn't? The more I do this, the better I get at picking top ten images, and..... the better I get at picking the top three. I think this may eventually help me achieve more ribbons. So... I suspect I've voted a 6 occasionally on an image that does really well in a challenge. I ABSOLUTELY don't think I was being dishonest. And I resent any implication that I did vote dishonestly.
I find many times I can recognize your images while voting Shannon. I suspect I've voted 7, 8, 9, and 10, most of the time on your images. But from now on, I'll only comment on your images. This means the occasional person who submits one I think is yours, will miss a vote, but an individual vote won't mean much to their score. Either way. I've been a member of another site much like DPC. One of the best scoring members would occasionally post in the forums with thoughts such as yours in this thread. It was an unmitigated attempt to influence the thoughts of people who would be involved in the voting process. Giving you the benefit of the doubt as a SC, I don't think this was your intent. But I never really thought I would hear a SC discuss the voting process in quite this way.
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03/28/2008 11:25:36 PM · #147 |
Originally posted by fir3bird:
I suspect I've voted a 6 occasionally on an image that does really well in a challenge. I ABSOLUTELY don't think I was being dishonest. |
So have I, and I didn't say you were being dishonest. I'll bet you've never voted a 5 or less on any entry that scored well over 8. I'd bet an old camera strap that the three people who gave that paintbrush image a 3 or 4 had both a stake in the challenge and a very "interesting" voting pattern. My only interest is that people vote images fairly, and if they genuinely feel that an entry deserves a low vote (even this one), then I won't object. I doubt that's the case in this instance though.
Message edited by author 2008-03-28 23:28:40. |
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03/28/2008 11:34:04 PM · #148 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
I only had time to read about the first ten posts, but I was surprised to hear that anyone votes on images relative to how their's is doing - that seems like a legitimate argument for not allowing voting on challenges you entered, but I am opposed to that idea. I may be in the minority of people that almost forget they are even in the competition they are voting on when voting. My entry has nothing to do with and no influence on my vote on other images. Maybe I don't care enough about winning.
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I could not have written this any better myself. This is the way I vote on challenges, whether I enter, or not. |
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03/28/2008 11:37:34 PM · #149 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
...don't turn your nose up at "stock" photos because more often than not the alternative style you like would make a pretty good stock photo too, for one very simple reason: that which appeals most to you is that which marketers targeting your interests would most like to use to sell to you. |
So you're saying every photo in theory is a stock image because it may appeal to someone (i.e. appeal = stock)? I don't agree with that. I'm of the opinion that a stock image is simply one that has been produced for mass appeal (i.e. caters to the lowest denominator possible). You're saying that's not the case?
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03/28/2008 11:39:57 PM · #150 |
Originally posted by yanko:
So you're saying every photo in theory is a stock image because it may appeal to someone (i.e. appeal = stock)? |
No, I'm saying that the photos held up as examples of appealing images by those who dislike stock photos are generally suitable for stock themselves. In other words, an image that an "accomplished" photographer finds particularly compelling is likely to appeal to others as well, and thus hold mass appeal.
Message edited by author 2008-03-28 23:43:36. |
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