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03/28/2008 04:58:00 PM · #101 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Gordon:
I just got to the point were trying to produce popular images was an empty, meaningless experience for me. I'm not saying anyone else shouldn't do it. I just don't find it satisfying any more. Shannon couldn't (in his original rant) understand why anyone wouldn't want to make popular images. |
The point of [that small section of] my original post was simply to express annoyance at those who disparage photos that appeal to the masses. We can certainly all appreciate a deep, meaningful photo, but DPC is not conducive to that type of image. It's a bit like a fly fishing purist complaining about most of the big fish being caught on worms at a kids' fishing derby and railing about the lost craft of creating your own lure. If you want deep on DPC then make that the challenge topic.
The part you seem to take exception to is the idea that photos should be appealing to others. I stand by that assertion. Unless you plan to sit in a closet and look at the photo yourself, the goal of photography is to provoke a reaction in the viewers. If nobody else cares to look at the image, then it's completely pointless. You say that you only shoot for yourself, but I don't buy that. You shoot what appeals to you and post the results online in the hope that others appreciate it too. The fact is that the style you favor IS appealing to others (mostly in terms of color and form), whether that's your professed goal or not, and if other people didn't find your work visually interesting then your efforts would be wasted and I'm 100% certain you would find no joy in the pursuit. |
I understand that you don't think anyone could want to make a picture for the sake of making a picture.
I understand that you only think the reason anyone would make a picture is for it to be popular.
I get it. You think popularity is the be all and end all of photography.
It isn't for me.
This is the topic of your whole original post by the way. It isn't just the little side point at the end. Your rant is about what 'better' means and what 'deserves' to be good or not. You have one narrow view of what that could possibly be.
and I never said 'I only shoot for myself'
I said I shoot for myself.
But what I'm not doing is shooting for everyone else. That's quite the difference.
Also I pretty much fundamentally disagree with the idea that 'we can all appreciate a deep and meaningful photo'
Almost by definition, I think we can't. Some people can. A different set of some people could appreciate a different photo in a similar way. But depth and meaning is quite often in the head of the viewer. It pretty much never would be the same for all viewers.
Message edited by author 2008-03-28 17:01:46. |
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03/28/2008 04:59:28 PM · #102 |
Originally posted by hopper:
To stay on topic - I agree with Shannon that the frequent ribboners should be doing everything possible to raise the standard for submitting, commenting, and voting.
The goal is for ALL of us to improve together |
I agree with this but what would you say is raising the standard for voting? Shouldn't the high votes be tougher to get and not easier like what Shannon seems to be suggesting indirectly? Shouldn't the higher scores be reserved for those entries that break the mold and offer something new or raise the bar? How many ribbon winners recently have done that? The biggest criticism that DPC gets is that the front page tends to look the same week after week. It is only on those rare occassions when that is not the case and in my opinion it is only then when people should even be thinking about handing out those perfect scores. After all do we really need to give a 10 to the 1,000th entry of an aurora presented in a way much like the 999 before it? On occassion, I'm guilty of this too but then again I'm not advocating that I should suddenly get higher scores for them when I didn't bring anything new to the table.
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03/28/2008 05:03:58 PM · #103 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
In any case, you're talking about appealing to people- maybe many, maybe specific groups- but NOT just yourself. You may be trying to provoke a specific reaction or express a particular idea, but you are still trying to appeal to the viewer... and once you talk about appealing to viewers IMO you forfeit the right to rail against those who appeal to people. ;-P |
It sounds like at some really fundamental level, you really don't get it. Which is fine, too. You still get your one vote on an image and if it is better or not or if it is more deserving or not. |
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03/28/2008 05:09:35 PM · #104 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by hopper:
To stay on topic - I agree with Shannon that the frequent ribboners should be doing everything possible to raise the standard for submitting, commenting, and voting.
The goal is for ALL of us to improve together |
I agree with this but what would you say is raising the standard for voting? Shouldn't the high votes be tougher to get and not easier like what Shannon seems to be suggesting indirectly? Shouldn't the higher scores be reserved for those entries that break the mold and offer something new or raise the bar? How many ribbon winners recently have done that? The biggest criticism that DPC gets is that the front page tends to look the same week after week. It is only on those rare occassions when that is not the case and in my opinion it is only then when people should even be thinking about handing out those perfect scores. After all do we really need to give a 10 to the 1,000th entry of an aurora presented in a way much like the 999 before it? On occassion, I'm guilty of this too but then again I'm not advocating that I should suddenly get higher scores for them when I didn't bring anything new to the table. |
...or something old in a new way.
I have, btw, been voting in the way you describe, since day immemorial. If you do it, make sure you have the stomach for the ensuing water-boarding. |
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03/28/2008 05:19:11 PM · #105 |
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Here's my edit.......
I guess I'm thinking "Eye Candy" is more like 'business' as compared to "Art". I came to DPC liking eye candy by far, but over time my appreciation for the more artistic photos has grown, and I'm even feeling the urge to take less stocky photos for my own pleasure.
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I could even edit this to further clarify that by 'business', I mean the business that I have experience in. I shouldn't have even tried to label something so broad, I guess. Oh well, I suck. :-( |
Nah it's not broad and you don't suck. Ok maybe just a little. :P Eye candy is simply the presentation much like gift wrapping. It should help sell something (meaning, idea, product, whatever). Problem is for the speed voter they never get around to unwrapping the gift to see what's inside so sometimes the photographer puts nothing in it.
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03/28/2008 05:30:59 PM · #106 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
I want to start a 'war on the use of the word distraction'. Most cliched, meaningless word in photographic critique on line. |
Jayzuz. Hear hear. |
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03/28/2008 05:57:19 PM · #107 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
I get it. You think popularity is the be all and end all of photography. |
You don't get it. I think being viewed is the be all and end all of photography. If nobody cares to look at a photo, then it serves no purpose and might as well not exist, thus some visual appeal must be a goal.
Originally posted by Gordon:
and I never said 'I only shoot for myself'
I said I shoot for myself.
But what I'm not doing is shooting for everyone else. That's quite the difference. |
Yeah, you keep telling yourself that buddy. I don't buy it. You may shoot what you like, but you also seek the approval and feedback of others. I shoot what I like too. You don't see me entering water splashes, lighthouses and backlit glasses. I use a variety of techniques, subjects and colors, but if the result of what I like happens to be appealing, then it's disparagingly called pandering to the masses. I could easily see the photos you linked as your current favorites on a stock site. Does that mean you were shooting for mass appeal? Of course not, but what you shoot is still a stock-type photo, and when it meets the challenge you score very well as a result.
How very delightful for you that your new artistic values rate the paintbrush photo 365 DPCers have marked as a favorite as "probably the most meaningless, lifeless, disconnected and vapid photo I've ever taken." I still consider it a brilliant take on the assignment, which didn't exactly call for solutions to the meaning of life. :-/ |
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03/28/2008 06:06:58 PM · #108 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Yeah, you keep telling yourself that buddy. I don't buy it. You may shoot what you like, but you also seek the approval and feedback of others. I shoot what I like too. You don't see me entering water splashes, lighthouses and backlit glasses. I use a variety of techniques, subjects and colors, but if the result of what I like happens to be appealing, then it's disparagingly called pandering to the masses. I could easily see the photos you linked as your current favorites on a stock site. Does that mean you were shooting for mass appeal? Of course not, but what you shoot is still a stock-type photo, and when it meets the challenge you score very well as a result. |
Yup, you still aren't getting it. I guess I'm just not explaining it well. I never said I'm not looking for feedback. Never said I don't want people to like the images.
I just don't think popularity is all that important. You seem to think that nothing else is - least that's what you've said several times in this thread.
It isn't a black and white issue to me. I'd rather have one person really, really love a picture, enough to want to buy it, frame it, live with it, get joy from it, than have 50 people like it and forget it 5 minutes later.
Lots of people like that paintbrush shot. Lots of people seem to want to copy it. I doubt anyone is ever going to care about it though.
As to my current favourites, I agree. They aren't particularly good but I'm trying to do better. If you can tell me which stock sites will sell these, let me know and I'll put them up. Those are the two in this thread that I said mean the most to me.
 
Message edited by author 2008-03-28 18:15:57. |
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03/28/2008 06:15:51 PM · #109 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
You may be trying to provoke a specific reaction or express a particular idea, but you are still trying to appeal to the viewer... and once you talk about appealing to viewers IMO you forfeit the right to rail against those who appeal to people. ;-P |
I am still trying to appeal to a viewer or two, absolutely. I think the audience is essential to any art.
I think you're using a generic "you", but just in case, I think I have done much more to positively promote the images I like than to negatively demote the images I don't. |
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03/28/2008 06:16:13 PM · #110 |
[quote=scalvert] If you want deep on DPC then make that the challenge topic.
You could make that the challenge but most of the images would be the "eye candy" and they would be voted to the top...Again. You couldn't possibly get that challenge to work on this site.
Message edited by author 2008-03-28 18:17:11. |
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03/28/2008 06:17:46 PM · #111 |
Originally posted by bmartuch:
Originally posted by scalvert:
If you want deep on DPC then make that the challenge topic. |
You could make that the challenge but most of the images would be the "eye candy" and they would be voted to the top...Again. You couldn't possibly get that challenge to work on this site. |
Lots of pictures of wells, I'd reckon... |
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03/28/2008 06:18:35 PM · #112 |
Originally posted by bmartuch:
Originally posted by scalvert:
If you want deep on DPC then make that the challenge topic. |
You could make that the challenge but most of the images would be the "eye candy" and they would be voted to the top...Again. You couldn't possibly get that challenge to work on this site. |
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03/28/2008 06:31:52 PM · #113 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
I just don't think popularity is all that important. You seem to think that nothing else is - least that's what you've said several times in this thread. |
Actually, I didn't. I've said visual appeal is important. Popularity just comes along for the ride. Your paintbrush may not invoke some deep passion in anyone, but that's not why you shot it. Most of my top scoring entries wouldn't make the cut in a personal portfolio either because much of their impact is lost outside the context of the challenge. But that's the point: the context here is a challenge topic, not a museum venue or AP press editorial. The format encourages appealing imagery that meets the topic.
Your blue image would have fared very well in Blurry Mess, not for any deep meaning, but because it's appealing and meets the topic. I'd rather have one person really, really love a picture, enough to want to buy it, frame it, live with it, get joy from it too, but then I'm not going to shoot a Blurry Mess if that's my goal. I could have used that very image two days ago for a client that makes vent filters, but bought a stock cloud photo instead. |
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03/28/2008 06:34:44 PM · #114 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
I think you're using a generic "you", but just in case, I think I have done much more to positively promote the images I like than to negatively demote the images I don't. |
Yes, that was intended to be a generic "you." You (specifically) do a great job promoting some OOB work. |
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03/28/2008 06:41:43 PM · #115 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Gordon:
I just don't think popularity is all that important. You seem to think that nothing else is - least that's what you've said several times in this thread. |
Actually, I didn't. I've said visual appeal is important. |
A couple of times you said 'mass appeal' was the utmost important thing, not visual appeal.
Originally posted by scalvert:
I WANT to appeal to the masses because, really, what's the point of having a photo that most people aren't interested in seeing? |
Or that being viewed was the only thing important about photography.
Originally posted by scalvert:
I think being viewed is the be all and end all of photography |
I just disagree. There are plenty of other reasons to take pictures, other than to have a mass market audience. I realise you think that couldn't be a motivation. That's fine. But it can't be that hard for you to accept that others might not have your motivations.
Originally posted by scalvert:
But that's the point: the context here is a challenge topic, not a museum venue or AP press editorial. The format encourages appealing imagery that meets the topic. |
Yup, that's certainly the formula for a high score. Nobody is disagreeing that dpc is a popularity contest.
Message edited by author 2008-03-28 18:43:18. |
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03/28/2008 06:43:55 PM · #116 |
Wouldn't a quick comparison between average vote given and received expose a good percentage of the voters who are voting as you suspect? I have to admit I have thought of voting this way, especially when I really like the photo I've entered. What takes me back is that my scale is my scale. I also realize that this way of rating could only work if all the photographers were equal with my ability. It's just not the case. The curse of a statisticianâ€Â¦
In the end I agree with Shannon. This is DPC and what wins is what wins. Art's motive is to be seen or it can't communicate at all. However beautiful the arguements for more depth may be, most won't take the time. I personally am here to learn about photography and the excitement of competition in the challenges. I can't believe that any attempt to "educate" the voter or criticize how they vote would be met with open arms. I can't say I blame them. |
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03/28/2008 06:48:59 PM · #117 |
Originally posted by neophyte:
I personally am here to learn about photography and the excitement of competition in the challenges. I can't believe that any attempt to "educate" the voter or criticize how they vote would be met with open arms. I can't say I blame them. |
Not quite sure I follow. You are here to learn about photography but think most people don't want to become more educated about photography ?
Message edited by author 2008-03-28 18:49:15. |
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03/28/2008 07:05:45 PM · #118 |
| I'm here to learn techniques and develop my style of shooting. I vote by what I like and what I believe is well done. I don't know if I would ever have the time to give each photo the time it deserves or the vote the photographer is hoping for, regardless of how much I learn here. Has there been a change in the way I vote now as compared to when I started here on this site? Clearly the answer is yes. However, some of it is from familiarity and some incredible techniques having less of an impact after I’ve seen several versions. But it's more from repetition of voting than anyone "educating" me. I do resent any attempt to tell me that the way I vote or the scale I use to vote is flawed or less understanding. I wonder if many agree with meâ€Â¦ |
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03/28/2008 07:09:19 PM · #119 |
Originally posted by neophyte:
I do resent any attempt to tell me that the way I vote or the scale I use to vote is flawed or less understanding. I wonder if many agree with meâ€Â¦ |
I don't know that anyone is telling you that you vote incorrectly, other than maybe Shannon at the start of the thread.
At least in this thread the discussion is about the fact that popularity is just one measure of the quality of an image that and maybe that success at dpc isn't the be all and end all of photography.
Message edited by author 2008-03-28 19:11:20. |
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03/28/2008 07:14:37 PM · #120 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
... At least in this thread the discussion is about the fact that popularity is just one measure of the quality of an image that and maybe that success at dpc isn't the be all and end all of photography. |
Actually, according to the thread title, this thread started off primarily as something else...
Originally posted by scalvert:
I was going to spoof the other two threads, but this is serious. I remember while voting on a challenge years ago my wife said, "Why did you give that photo a 9? Your entry is better, and it's at 6.5." I vote a 9 because an entry deserves a 9. Maybe I think my entry deserves a 10, but I can't vote on it or control what others think. I can only rate the photos as I see them, and I think many are better than the score they eventually get.
My wife's comment shocked me at the time, but I wonder if some people really do take that approach and, if so... WTF?!? I can look at the voting patterns of others and know that there are some regular ribbon winners who never vote any other entry above their own score. I find that absolutely appalling, and it lowers my personal opinion of such people. I wonder how anyone can justify that kind of voting (though not really expecting an answer). If anything, regular ribbon winners should be encouraging competition, not sabotaging it.
Heck, I wonder why ribbon winners scoring 8+ get so many votes of 4 or 5, even though such an image requires obvious superiority. I think we pretty much know where the 1's come from on a blue ribbon, but anything less than a 7 on a ribbon winner will drag its score down, and there are always plenty of 4-6 votes. I know of some people who almost never vote above 6 in any challenge (even free studies), and I wonder why they're even here if they hold such a low opinion of our work. I guess this is more random musing than anything, and certainly not a call to restrict voting on challenges you've entered. Most people do vote fairly, and removing the votes of those most interested on the topic would be throwing the baby out with the bath water. ... |
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03/28/2008 07:15:47 PM · #121 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Actually, according to the thread title, this thread started off primarily as something else... |
How to rate photos that are better than yours
Once you've defined 'better', then we can go on from there. I don't think we've got there yet. So far we have 'more popular with more mass appeal' and a few disagreements.
Is 'better' an absolute, unarguable metric when you compare two pictures ? If not, then the whole thread is nonsense.
Message edited by author 2008-03-28 19:20:17. |
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03/28/2008 07:20:11 PM · #122 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Actually, according to the thread title, this thread started off primarily as something else... |
How to rate photos that are better than yours
Once you've defined 'better', then we can go on from there. I don't think we've got there yet. So far we have 'more popular with more mass appeal' and a few disagreements. |
You have to read between the lines. This is the real title of this thread:
How to rate photos that Shannon says is better than yours
:P
Message edited by author 2008-03-28 19:20:28.
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03/28/2008 07:29:55 PM · #123 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
I don't know that anyone is telling you that you vote incorrectly, other than maybe Shannon at the start of the thread.
I disagree.
At least in this thread the discussion is about the fact that popularity is just one measure of the quality of an image that and maybe that success at dpc isn't the be all and end all of photography. |
When I realized this, I felt I advanced as a photographer.I've not won any ribbons but I've had some success in many publications so I agree.
I thought I said this in an earlier post when I said What wins here at DPC is what wins at DPC.(maybe I was less clear) And they win because of the voters and by what's popular on this site. Mass appeal is what drives this site so if scores are important to you, you should take it in to consideration when you enter here.
Message edited by author 2008-03-28 19:30:50. |
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03/28/2008 07:41:08 PM · #124 |
Shannon makes a valid point. But some of you (not generic "you") obviously have nothing better to do with your time than mess with semantics and play ego games. I think you'd argue about a loaf of bread, Gordon! Get a life!
Message edited by author 2008-03-28 19:45:02.
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03/28/2008 07:41:21 PM · #125 |
Originally posted by neophyte:
What wins here at DPC is what wins at DPC.(maybe I was less clear) And they win because of the voters and by what's popular on this site. Mass appeal is what drives this site so if scores are important to you, you should take it in to consideration when you enter here. |
Yup, I don't think anyone would disagree that what wins here is what's popular.
However, you shouldn't have to vote an image high because you think it might be popular, which seems to be the thrust of the original post. |
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