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03/28/2008 03:37:48 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by ivale28:
... We waited almost 2 hours in the waiting room. Thankfully, everything ended up okay. Another time, a close relative with heart disease went in at 2am with chest pain and difficulty breathing. She ended up waiting over an hour before she was seen by a medical professional ... |
I don't mean to knock your pain, but I live in NYC. Those times seem fast to me!
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03/28/2008 03:39:15 PM · #52 |
to say you dont pay for medicine seems a little off to me, you do pay, you just dont the doctor, you pay the government to pay the doctor (right?) thats why im asking about taxes...
this may sound a little harsh, and dont confuse this as being cold hearted, this is just looking at straight numbers. (i dont think anyone is below health care nor do i think anyonee should ever be denied health care based on something like money) but it seems to me that alot are paying for a few. in the troubled times of our current economy (which is a different can of beans) that the extra burden of increased taxes would add even more strain to already finicially unstable familes.
In the united states ive never once heard of someone not recieving treatment baised on money. there are many hospitals throughout the country that are souly for people who arent covered by insurence (espcially for children).
so seems that in the US you pay (or your insurence company pays) if you can, but if you cant either a charity or the gorvernment steps in and helps out. It seems to me that if you are faced with a medical issue that you get the help you need, regardless of any other factor (theres always a way to pay for something, you just have to find out how) and from what i can tell our current health care system (even though its for profit, privitized and sometimes partial to people who have money/insurence) gets the job done and seems to turn more patients. |
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03/28/2008 03:42:05 PM · #53 |
It was my understanding that a hospital or emergency room cannot legally deny you medical attention, for any reason. Maybe that is a local statute?
I'm still undecided on the whole universal health care thing. I can see the benefits of not paying (duh), and, personally, would love to see the insurance companies take a hit (the real demons in a lot of these stories), BUT, that is giving the federal government even more control of our life. AND, regardless of your political leanings, I don't think it is hard to come to agreement that the government, whichever party is in power, has a tendency to mess things up. I guess my concern right now, is while it is bad for a portion of the population, will it become worse for everyone in an effort to make it better somehow?
(And as far as bad health care goes -- my city/county is the epitome. Our hospital just lost all medicare/medicaid funding. As a result, all but a handful of insurance companies refuse to pay for services there. A 170 bed facility had 20 patients a couple of weeks ago. I can't help but wonder if a UHC system would help here, because it obviously can't get any worse.)
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03/28/2008 03:46:48 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by chris48083:
to say you dont pay for medicine seems a little off to me, you do pay, you just dont the doctor, you pay the government to pay the doctor (right?) thats why im asking about taxes... |
See my tax rates for Canadians in the above-referenced link. How do yours compare?
Originally posted by chris48083:
...it seems to me that alot are paying for a few. in the troubled times of our current economy (which is a different can of beans) that the extra burden of increased taxes would add even more strain to already finicially unstable familes. |
The US economy is bad. The Canadian economy is red-hot. It is much more stable than the American economy right now. Canada's economy is resource-heavy, and Canada is one of the world's largest oil exporters. Canada's economy is currently one of the world's strongest. That's why our dollar is on par with the US dollar.
Originally posted by chris48083:
In the united states ive never once heard of someone not recieving treatment baised on money. |
Read the testimonies above of your fellow citizens. You have now heard of it.
Originally posted by chris48083:
...from what i can tell our current health care system (even though its for profit, privitized and sometimes partial to people who have money/insurence) gets the job done and seems to turn more patients. |
I don't agree with that assessment. |
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03/28/2008 03:48:26 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by karmat:
It was my understanding that a hospital or emergency room cannot legally deny you medical attention, for any reason. Maybe that is a local statute? |
they cannot deny medical attention if the patiant is in imediate danger of loosing their life.
(plus i dont think anyone is that cold hearted to watch someone die while holding there fingers up rubbing them for cash) |
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03/28/2008 03:49:29 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by chris48083:
Originally posted by karmat:
It was my understanding that a hospital or emergency room cannot legally deny you medical attention, for any reason. Maybe that is a local statute? |
they cannot deny medical attention if the patiant is in imediate danger of loosing their life.
(plus i dont think anyone is that cold hearted to watch someone die while holding there fingers up rubbing them for cash) |
... you can only hope. |
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03/28/2008 03:50:53 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by Louis:
I wanted to ask the Americans -- Alex and I were talking about this on the way to work today. We were wondering if, say, somebody with no health insurance broke their arm with a compound fracture and had to be rushed to emergency. If they are not covered, and cannot pay, are they simply out of luck? Will the hospital refuse treatment? |
No, they will not be refused treatment. If they cannot pay, most hospitals have systems set up to allow a payment by month, or in a lot of instances there are what I would call "grants" to cover them. That is assuming that they do not already have some form of medicaid or medicare (government subsidized medical stuff).
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03/28/2008 03:53:46 PM · #58 |
karmat - I agree. I am curious as to actually how other countries are faring...without having the propaganda machines tell us what they want us to believe.
IMHO, most things the government gets involved in get bogged down in politics and bureaucratic waste.
And how many more things will they want us to be dependent on them for? Canadian friends, are they talking about taking over responsibility for something else next?
Doesn't seem to advance the causes of liberty and self-sufficiency and independence.
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03/28/2008 03:54:45 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by chris48083:
to say you dont pay for medicine seems a little off to me, you do pay, you just dont the doctor, you pay the government to pay the doctor (right?) thats why im asking about taxes... |
See my tax rates for Canadians in the above-referenced link. How do yours compare?
Originally posted by chris48083:
...it seems to me that alot are paying for a few. in the troubled times of our current economy (which is a different can of beans) that the extra burden of increased taxes would add even more strain to already finicially unstable familes. |
The US economy is bad. The Canadian economy is red-hot. It is much more stable than the American economy right now. Canada's economy is resource-heavy, and Canada is one of the world's largest oil exporters. Canada's economy is currently one of the world's strongest. That's why our dollar is on par with the US dollar.
Originally posted by chris48083:
In the united states ive never once heard of someone not recieving treatment baised on money. |
Read the testimonies above of your fellow citizens. You have now heard of it.
Originally posted by chris48083:
...from what i can tell our current health care system (even though its for profit, privitized and sometimes partial to people who have money/insurence) gets the job done and seems to turn more patients. |
I don't agree with that assessment. |
-if i did the math right, canadian taxes are much higher (depending on where you fall in the US tax system).
-would you say canada's economy is so strong partly because of its health care system operating the way that it does? (this is probably alot harder to answer then just a 'of course it is' cuz realistically to find out you would have to compare the exact same economy just without UHC, which is impossible)
-no one has said the were outright denied treatment.
-that assessment is baised souly on persepctive, both of ours is bias and neither of us have hard numbers to rely on |
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03/28/2008 03:56:23 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by karmat:
I'm still undecided on the whole universal health care thing....BUT, that is giving the federal government even more control of our life....the government, whichever party is in power, has a tendency to mess things up. |
I've noticed that many people from the US are very suspicious of the government. I don't believe that kind of suspicion is as strong here, at least not in my province. If I may ask, what role do you see the government taking?
In my view, the various tiers of government are there to offer services to citizens, and generally to ensure the quality of life for everyone is the best it can be. This entails matters of justice (for accused and accuser), as well as matters of health care, personal liberty and security, and everyday services such as roads, libraries, and community buildings like swimming pools (governed by municipalities). The government is not there to run individuals' lives, tell them how to behave when their behaviour is inside the law, or tell them what they can and cannot say. Governments mess things up, but in my view, not sufficiently enough to prevent them from offering basic services like health care and justice. |
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03/28/2008 04:02:21 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by chris48083:
-would you say canada's economy is so strong partly because of its health care system operating the way that it does? |
The current state of the economy and the health care system are two completely different issues. Some of my fellows might say that our economy is strong despite the state of the health care system, and I might agree, but I would venture to say none would give up universal health care in order for the government to save millions of dollars a year. What else is a government for, if not to spend money on its citizens?
Originally posted by chris48083:
-no one has said the were outright denied treatment. |
They may as well have. Read the extra knuckle report above, and Kelli's heart attack story.
Originally posted by chris48083:
-that assessment is baised souly on persepctive, both of ours is bias and neither of us have hard numbers to rely on |
I could get the numbers if I really wanted to, and so could you, and as long as they were officially provided (by the respective governments), I'd accept them. At least anecdotally here, our health care system is certainly free, by all accounts as fast or faster than the US system, and unquestionably of the same standard. |
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03/28/2008 04:17:34 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by Louis:
There is bad medical service, diagnosis, and practice in all systems, not just socialized ones. |
Oh I definitely agree with this. However, I am just one voice, and the fact that I have either experienced or have personally known someone that experienced so many examples of substandard health care leads me to feel that this could be more of a norm than an exception. Does it mean our public health care is inferior to private health care? I have no idea. Personally, I prefer a public health care system, mainly for the fact that, yes, if a horrible accident/illness happens to myself or someone I love, I don't have to worry about having a huge debt to pay off after the fact. |
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03/28/2008 04:31:21 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by ivale28:
Originally posted by Louis:
There is bad medical service, diagnosis, and practice in all systems, not just socialized ones. |
Oh I definitely agree with this. However, I am just one voice, and the fact that I have either experienced or have personally known someone that experienced so many examples of substandard health care leads me to feel that this could be more of a norm than an exception. |
I understand. Contrast that with my experience, which has heretofore been only positive for me and my family. My dad has had major cardiac surgery, my mom has had various pins and devices put into her brittle joints, and I've got experience with less serious issues like pneumonia, broken limbs, kidney issues. I'm in Ontario, so I don't know if that accounts for any difference. |
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03/28/2008 04:34:23 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by citymars:
Originally posted by ivale28:
... We waited almost 2 hours in the waiting room. Thankfully, everything ended up okay. Another time, a close relative with heart disease went in at 2am with chest pain and difficulty breathing. She ended up waiting over an hour before she was seen by a medical professional ... |
I don't mean to knock your pain, but I live in NYC. Those times seem fast to me! |
Lol, not taken as knocking my pain, no worries! Even for emergencies? That just floors me! |
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03/28/2008 04:36:09 PM · #65 |
I'm not sure. There was an article in the paper not too long ago regarding the differences in health care across the provinces. My experiences are only in Saskatchewan and Manitoba.
Edit to add this is in response to Louis.
Message edited by author 2008-03-28 16:36:36. |
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03/28/2008 04:40:06 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by chris48083:
to say you dont pay for medicine seems a little off to me, you do pay, you just dont the doctor, you pay the government to pay the doctor (right?) thats why im asking about taxes...
this may sound a little harsh, and dont confuse this as being cold hearted, this is just looking at straight numbers. (i dont think anyone is below health care nor do i think anyonee should ever be denied health care based on something like money) but it seems to me that alot are paying for a few. in the troubled times of our current economy (which is a different can of beans) that the extra burden of increased taxes would add even more strain to already finicially unstable familes.
In the united states ive never once heard of someone not recieving treatment baised on money. there are many hospitals throughout the country that are souly for people who arent covered by insurence (espcially for children).
so seems that in the US you pay (or your insurence company pays) if you can, but if you cant either a charity or the gorvernment steps in and helps out. It seems to me that if you are faced with a medical issue that you get the help you need, regardless of any other factor (theres always a way to pay for something, you just have to find out how) and from what i can tell our current health care system (even though its for profit, privitized and sometimes partial to people who have money/insurence) gets the job done and seems to turn more patients. |
If you have access via an employer-subsidized insurance plan, health care in the US is pretty good and reasonably priced (assuming your treatment is covered). Of course, if you lose your job (an all too common occurence around here), God help you if you aren't healthy.
If you're poor, you will qualify for assistance.
If you're somewhere in the middle, for some reason don't have medical insurance and you have need serious medical care, all I can say is, "Welcome to Hell". You won't necessarily be refused care that will address your immediate needs or be unable to find that care, but you might have to clean out your retirement accounts, sell your home and possessions to pay the bills even after some of the bills are waived. And, should be so unfortunate to develop a serious condition like cancer, well, it's unlikely that you will be able to access any but the most rudimentary care.
In the US, they won't deny you immediate treatment for urgent conditions, but good luck accessing medical care for long term or chronic illnesses like cancer or kidney disease.
Message edited by author 2008-03-28 16:44:41. |
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03/28/2008 04:45:42 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by ivale28:
Originally posted by citymars:
Originally posted by ivale28:
... We waited almost 2 hours in the waiting room. Thankfully, everything ended up okay. Another time, a close relative with heart disease went in at 2am with chest pain and difficulty breathing. She ended up waiting over an hour before she was seen by a medical professional ... |
I don't mean to knock your pain, but I live in NYC. Those times seem fast to me! |
Lol, not taken as knocking my pain, no worries! Even for emergencies? That just floors me! |
And it varies from hospital to hospital. When my 3 yo jumped off the bed and we figured she had broken her foot (she had), from the moment we walked into the ER until we walked out (triage examination, nurse examination, X-rays, doctor examination, "treatment," payment) was about 5 hours. Oddly enough, the longest wait was at the end where we were waiting to be "discharged" with care instructions payment "options." We actually got seen by the nurses, etal. within minutes.
When we had to take my son for respiratory problems, the time was much quicker.
+++++++++++++
Which causes me to ask another question. With regards to UHC in Canada (realizing that it may be different from province to province, or from country to country with a global regard to UHC), if I need medical attention, can I choose which hospital to go to, or are there requirement based on geography, etc?
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03/28/2008 04:50:32 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by karmat:
Which causes me to ask another question. With regards to UHC in Canada (realizing that it may be different from province to province, or from country to country with a global regard to UHC), if I need medical attention, can I choose which hospital to go to, or are there requirement based on geography, etc? |
You can go to any hospital. You may be redirected if there is an emergency room backlog (I haven't heard of this in a long time, but it was a problem some years ago), or if there is a more appropriate facility nearby (on University Ave. where I work there are several hospitals within sight of each other, so one may be better than another for treating your child for example). You can also walk into any medical clinic for non-emergencies and be treated.
Message edited by author 2008-03-28 16:52:57. |
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03/28/2008 04:51:20 PM · #69 |
| You can choose where to go. If the hospital in question has an ER, you have the choice of using it. I don't know if they may send you to a different hospital if the work load is too high - I would assume it could happen but have never personally heard of it. |
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03/28/2008 04:51:35 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by ivale28:
Originally posted by Louis:
There is bad medical service, diagnosis, and practice in all systems, not just socialized ones. |
Oh I definitely agree with this. However, I am just one voice, and the fact that I have either experienced or have personally known someone that experienced so many examples of substandard health care leads me to feel that this could be more of a norm than an exception. |
I understand. Contrast that with my experience, which has heretofore been only positive for me and my family. My dad has had major cardiac surgery, my mom has had various pins and devices put into her brittle joints, and I've got experience with less serious issues like pneumonia, broken limbs, kidney issues. I'm in Ontario, so I don't know if that accounts for any difference. |
My family, friends, relatives, have had good luck with health care. We live in Burlington, Ontario, as does [user]Louis[/user] according to his profile. My brother-in-law's life was recently saved by his family doctor (who is also mine), as the doctor took the time to carefully diagnose a complaint about some loss of hearing in one ear during a check-up. Which turned out to be a rare form of brain tumour. Maybe we're lucky to live in Burlington?
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03/28/2008 04:55:51 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by ivale28:
Originally posted by Louis:
There is bad medical service, diagnosis, and practice in all systems, not just socialized ones. |
Oh I definitely agree with this. However, I am just one voice, and the fact that I have either experienced or have personally known someone that experienced so many examples of substandard health care leads me to feel that this could be more of a norm than an exception. |
I understand. Contrast that with my experience, which has heretofore been only positive for me and my family. My dad has had major cardiac surgery, my mom has had various pins and devices put into her brittle joints, and I've got experience with less serious issues like pneumonia, broken limbs, kidney issues. I'm in Ontario, so I don't know if that accounts for any difference. |
My family, friends, relatives, have had good luck with health care. We live in Burlington, Ontario, as does [user]Louis[/user] according to his profile. My brother-in-law's life was recently saved by his family doctor (who is also mine), as the doctor took the time to carefully diagnose a complaint about some loss of hearing in one ear during a check-up. Which turned out to be a rare form of brain tumour. Maybe we're lucky to live in Burlington? |
Yeah, I live in Burlington. I don't have a doctor. :-( I use the clinics. They're not as good as having your own doctor IMO. My folks have had the same doctor for over twenty-five years (I guess I got dropped when I moved to Toronto for 11 years). |
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03/28/2008 10:01:18 PM · #72 |
I'm a relatively new Canadian, but the health care system here is one of the things I truly love about Canada. What I like most is that I do not have to worry about my family and I being taken care of, and I do not have to make silly decisions like, should I go to the doctor for this or not? Would it be better to wait for next year, so I have to pay only one deductible instead of paying deductible on two years? Is it bad enough to go see a doctor? Those are the kinds of decisions we had to make in the USA, and we had pretty decent health care coverage. I can hardly imagine what it's like for people without coverage!
As for bureaucracy and paperwork, there's been a lot less for me as the consumer, hardly any. I show my card, and that's that, both in Ontario and in British Columbia. I don't have to fill out endless forms for the doctor's offices, the insurance company, the hospital, whatever. I don't know if there is less paperwork overall in the USA, but judging by the size of office staff in doctor's offices, I would say that paperwork is less in Canada.
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03/28/2008 10:59:59 PM · #73 |
I have been monitoring this thread on & off and I am trying to put this all in perspective - in the US, I pay about $400/month for mediocre coverage (something like "catastrophic" or something like that) with a very high deductible. I think I have been paying about this for over 7 years and I don't think the insurance company has laid out a dime for anything except some of Riley's birthing bills (but if I recall, not much of that). If I understand correctly, a system like Canada's means that instead of me paying the insurance company $400/month, the government would be taking $???/month, but providing better coverage of at least the typical medical issues, if not major or complex ones.
I am generally opposed to the government taking my money and removing my choices, but I am on the fence on this issue - particularly with regard to Ursula's comments about the decisions you have to make - "should I go to the doctor?" etc. AND I think our private medical system is screwed up in extremely complex ways - not that I think the government couldn't screw it up in more and different ways though. If the military health care system is inidicative of what Universal Health Care would look like in the US, I'd be vehemently opposed to it. Thoughts? |
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03/28/2008 11:24:39 PM · #74 |
Looks like I have a unique perspective, as I have experience with both systems. I spent 31yrs in Canada, and have now been in Seattle for 12yrs. My wife, 2 kids (20 & 21), and I - have had a vast array of different procedures on both sides of the border. From broken bones (skateboarding), to several knee surgeries (gotta love skiing), to 2 severed achiles tendons... the list goes on & on (wow... kinda scary now that I look back).
Here's the summary:
The level of healthcare (including facilities, personnel, procedures, wait times, recovery, etc., etc.) is identical in every aspect.
The process that one goes through in the U.S. to first choose a plan, find said healthcare, ensure that you are covered under your policy (and I've always had top-notch coverage here), and subsequently track & understand the plethora of bills that follow - is crazy at best. The price... not of the coverage plan, but the overages that are squarely the responsibility of the patient - is extremely high.
In Canada - you find what you want, and it's covered. Period.
No question in my mind. The Canadian healthcare system is far superior.
My 2c
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*edited for spelling :O)
Message edited by author 2008-03-29 00:46:13. |
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03/28/2008 11:34:09 PM · #75 |
I too have lived in both US (until 18) and since in Canada. I agree it is better here. It cost somewhere between, free and 100.00 a month if you have a decent income. I have had to 'wait' when I had my first gall bladder attack. But was also told if it happened again come to emergency and they would remove it ASAP. I have had excellent care by the individuals involved.
Currently the trickiest thing (in my area) is a shortage of G.P.s for everyday concerns. However they are supposedly working to get more doctors working. |
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