The Downside of Technology - DPChallenge Forums

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.4D

03/11/2008 12:17:29 PM · #1

Hello all, just a thought for discussion,

The over the weekend I was browsing through old stock images on 35mm slides/negatives. I've been compiling these since the early 70's. I'm in the process of digitizing them for a few stock agencies.

In those files I found some really old (1920's) inherited print/negatives of my Belgian Grandmother sitting in front of her home in the once Belgian Congo, her husband (my Grandfather) was a land surveyer for the French Government during one of its colonial periods in Africa.

I was thrilled to have rediscovered these. And I'm able to reproduce and/or rehabilitate them. I realized how fortunate I am that all these images (those I inherited and those I shot myself) were in a technology that is relatively ageless, or at the very least able to be reproduced on the most basic levels.

I got to thinking about the images I've shot with digital cameras. What will the technology be like 50, 60 even 90 years from now? Will what I've shot digitally be around then for my heirs? Will the technology exist to even access the cds and hard drives that they're stored on? What will be my visual legacy?

I've decided to retain and even increase my use of the 35mm cameras I still possess, and continue to shoot slides for as long as the processing services/materials/chemicals are available. At least for the images that I want to preserve; my travels, family moments, artistic, critical moments in my lifetime. For images that have less archival importance; short term business, product, etc. the digital format will continue to be suitable.

Interestingly, I still have two or three eight track tapes: Souvenirs of my youth. I've got MAC software stored a box of old SyQuest discs (still have the drive), and some windows files that no longer can easily be read. I've even crashed a few hard drives and damaged a few cds and lost all the data on each. This issue must really worry the archivists at the Library of Congress.

At least I can still play my vinyl records as I view my slides.

Good shooting all!

tate

Apple iPhone 15 Pro

03/11/2008 12:24:08 PM · #2

From what I hear, the library of Congress has this very dilemma about how to archive things. Since there is no universal forever archive media. So many people are concerned about it that I get the feeling there will be families that will hang on to their 8-track players, Cd-burners and whatever for generations to come. When in doubt, write inside caves, that lasts a while ;)

doctornick

Apple iPhone 13 Pro

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

03/11/2008 12:31:23 PM · #3

Originally posted by metatate:

....When in doubt, write inside caves, that lasts a while ;)

...or carve hieroglyphs into sandstone....they've lasted 5000 years...

thomaspeople

Pentax K50

Pentax DA L 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 AL

03/11/2008 12:36:08 PM · #4

I don't live near any caves, but I do have an old eight-track player and a beta machine.

Oh, and I have this...

___________________

___________________

citymars

Nikon D700

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

03/11/2008 12:38:51 PM · #5

Hello, Joel. Welcome to DPC!

That's cool about finding the old negatives. You are right that as technology evolves we are apt to lose our archived data. I've already seen it many times in the last few years. Digital film clips that I had stored on my PC can no longer be read. The file extensions haven't changed, but the software that reads them has! I'm not sure if this is due to "improved" security or just lack of concern about backwards compatibility.

Btw, I also have shoeboxes full of Betamax tapes! I bought a refurbished Sony player from ebay, but unfortunately it doesn't work very well.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

03/11/2008 12:47:17 PM · #6

Originally posted by doctornick:

Originally posted by metatate:
....When in doubt, write inside caves, that lasts a while ;)

...or carve hieroglyphs into sandstone....they've lasted 5000 years...

I've long advocated the use of baked clay tablets, with a proven archival life of over 4600 years. A very slight modification of the Babylonian cuniform notation would serve to record binary data nicely. Of course, a 3MB JPEG would weigh about five tons ... :-(

03/11/2008 01:09:49 PM · #7

Some of you folks are missing the point.

I'm not disparaging the use of Digital. Many aspects of digital imagery is great. I fint the impulsive nature of digital alluring. The immediate gratification of posting images addictive. Its fine that many picture takers do not need to be a really good photographer to get a really good image. Shoot for broke, delete the errors, or better yet Photoshop the errors out.

What I'm saying is that as technology changes and as time progresses digital images are totally lost. Not just misplaced and forgotten. Digital images that don't seem important today and quickly deleted will never be inadvertantly found tomorrow and gain new importance. Wouldn't find a 47 year old digital image of the "Grassy Knoll" in a box in the attic.

I just like the idea of having an original image (slide) that will endure as long is possible to be digitized in whatever technology is available at whatever era needed.

Message edited by author 2008-03-11 13:18:30.

scalvert

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

03/11/2008 01:16:21 PM · #8

Originally posted by BlueOrbPhoto:

Wouldn't find a 47 year old digital image of the "Grassy Knoll" in a box in the attic.

You might... if it were on a CD 47 years from now. The upside is that there will be far more images now that they offer instant viewing and "free" capture, and any images that ARE saved will be pristine- no scratches or faded film.

Spork99

OM System OM-1

03/11/2008 01:23:26 PM · #9

Originally posted by BlueOrbPhoto:

What I'm saying is that as technology changes and as time progresses digital images are totally lost. Not just misplaced and forgotten. Digital images that don't seem important today and quickly deleted will never be inadvertantly found tomorrow and gain new importance. Wouldn't find a 47 year old digital image of the "Grassy Knoll" in a box in the attic.

I usually pitched un-wanted negs with abandon. I retain a far greater percentage of digital images than I ever did with film.

citymars

Nikon D700

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

03/11/2008 01:33:32 PM · #10

Originally posted by BlueOrbPhoto:

Some of you folks are missing the point. ...

I don't think anyone missed the point. People are just riffing on a theme. :-)

03/11/2008 01:46:32 PM · #11

Originally posted by BlueOrbPhoto:

I just like the idea of having an original image (slide) that will endure as long is possible to be digitized in whatever technology is available at whatever era needed.

Same thing can be said for an original image, which can be migrated to a new format each time. It requires the same amount of care and dedication to preserve analog originals as it does to preserve digital originals. The same issues exist. Try getting easy access to equipment to digitise a wax tube recording now, or an 8-track tape drive. It's available, but it is expensive. Almost as expensive as converting a GEM image format from a 5.25" floppy drive.

Archive maintenance isn't trivial, for digital or analog. Someone has to keep the data up with the new formats, or it gets lost.

03/11/2008 02:11:08 PM · #12

You Folks are great.

The responses to my opinion have been very interesting. Thanks.

Oh, and GeneralE, who knows, the technology may one day exist to imprint digital images directly on to baked clay tablets. Then you'll be able to save your images for your great, great decendents too.

Thanks again. Look forward to more.

Message edited by author 2008-03-11 15:33:46.

Nullix

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

03/11/2008 02:42:13 PM · #13

Originally posted by BlueOrbPhoto:

I've decided to retain and even increase my use of the 35mm cameras I still possess, and continue to shoot slides for as long as the processing services/materials/chemicals are available.

I still have my elan 7e. I think I'll take some pictures tonight of my kids. I also shoot some medium format stuff with my $20 circoflex just for this reason.

Also, when I dumped my 10D in the water, I was forced back to my elan7e. I took some pretty good photos with that. I think I'll take somemore pictures.

thomaspeople

Pentax K50

Pentax DA L 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 AL

03/11/2008 02:54:13 PM · #14

To "riff" further on the theme (and to prove to all that I am a nerd-extraordinaire) I envision that day in the distant future when, like the reverend mother's out of Herbert's "Dune" world, people are able to pass all knowledge and memory genetically just by drinking a little poison. Of course I'd like to avoid the evil-order-of-world-dominating-crazy-women that comes with this particular ability.

(And if you're not a sci-fi junkie, don't waste your time trying to understand. Just move on...)

Nullix

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

03/11/2008 05:40:41 PM · #15

Or you can print your digital files to slides.

Slides from Digital

Nikon AF Nikkor 35mm f/2.0D

03/11/2008 05:51:53 PM · #16

Nullix -

Now that's cool! Solves many archival issues.

zarniwoop

Nikon D50

03/11/2008 06:07:57 PM · #17

Technology changes at a reasonably slow rate. Actually, the leading edge changes very fast, but backwards compatibility is around for a while. Slow enough for you to be able to convert your files to a more readable format. Given that pretty much every digital photo nowadays is jpg, tiff, or RAW, and that RAW files can be converted to the fully documented DNG format there really shouldn't be a problem.

Just keep your backups up to date and anticipate obsolescence.

File formats changed a lot in the last couple of decades because digital technology was in its infancy. I believe we'll see more stability in the future.

The problems with the life of the physical media themselves are quite another matter. Carved stone seems pretty good to me. Perhaps we can cut the moon up and use it as an archive?

Message edited by author 2008-03-11 18:09:00.

robs

Canon EOS R6 Mk II

03/11/2008 06:39:51 PM · #18

I dunno.... I have seen a lot of changes since I started in IT 20 years ago (god I'm old).....

I think it's too early to say that any digital format will be a long term option.... none strike me as "permanent" in the same sense as film... including DNG. I believe the only manufacturer to support native DNG is Leica but I might be wrong.... Some companies (Nikon anyone) goes the opposite and encrypts the WB info in their RAW files. A company pushed "standard" is not that unless everyone supports it. JPG might be a long runner but that's more of a lowest common denominator rather then something useful for multi-layer editing files or even lossless (apart from JPG2K & I think some flavours in PS). I'm discouraged so far at how the RAW formats have developed.... everyone likes standards as long as they own it :-/

Data media is a different thing and will always change. It's less of an issue IMO... just have to keep rolling the backups to the newer media. I still have some black floppies in various sizes but I suspect most cannot read them now days :-)

03/11/2008 07:15:25 PM · #19

Originally posted by zarniwoop:

That would be great if DNG solved the problem. Problem is, it doesn't. It's a nicely defined and speced format for the bag, but it does nothing to fully disclose the contents. There's still whole parts of the standard devoted to vendor specific and undocumented data. DNG is a small part of a potential solution. It certainly doesn't solve the problem. DNG is something that helps Adobe and they are trying to push on the camera manufacturers. Sure they want public acceptance - it makes their life easier.

Never mind the fact that storage media disappears faster than formats. I've got zipp drives with images on them, but no way to read them. I've got DAT tape with images on them and no way to read them. VHS tapes with movies on them and no player, 3.5" floppy drives with documents and no access, 5.25" floppies with university exercises, minidisks with music.

All potentially still working, all unaccessable. Never mind the stuff in obscure backup formats like nero, compressed and burned to disk.

Companies come and go. Adobe will no doubt be a distance memory in 50 or a hundred years. DNG and PSD formats certainly will. I don't know about you, but I actually like looking at images my grand parents took. Image archival access should be a 100 or 200+ year proposition, not 20 to 30. And this is us. The people who are somewhat aware. Not the entire lost generation of images captured on digital cameras and kept on a hard drive that will fail or stored only on one CF card that will get wiped. Before at least prints would exist, maybe yellowing slightly. Negatives would still be in the envelopes.

Image longevity is probably at about the lowest point since the invention of the camera, for the general population.

Message edited by author 2008-03-11 19:20:25.

Nullix

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

03/11/2008 11:54:48 PM · #20

Originally posted by BlueOrbPhoto:

I've decided to retain and even increase my use of the 35mm cameras I still possess, and continue to shoot slides for as long as the processing services/materials/chemicals are available.

Originally posted by Nullix:

I still have my elan 7e. I think I'll take some pictures tonight of my kids.

Wow, I forgot how much slower I get with film. I really have to make sure the lighting's right. I shot in all manual too. I wish I had my flash to fill in some of those shadows. The only thing I don't like about film, you need to shoot the roll before you develope. I have 11 shots left. I'll have to take more tomorrow.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

03/12/2008 12:31:30 AM · #21

Originally posted by Gordon:

Never mind the fact that storage media disappears faster than formats. I've got zipp drives with images on them, but no way to read them. I've got DAT tape with images on them and no way to read them. VHS tapes with movies on them and no player, 3.5" floppy drives with documents and no access, 5.25" floppies with university exercises, minidisks with music.

I have a lot of (mostly working) "legacy" drives around ... I might be able to help.

03/12/2008 12:42:44 AM · #22

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Gordon:
Never mind the fact that storage media disappears faster than formats. I've got zipp drives with images on them, but no way to read them. I've got DAT tape with images on them and no way to read them. VHS tapes with movies on them and no player, 3.5" floppy drives with documents and no access, 5.25" floppies with university exercises, minidisks with music.

I have a lot of (mostly working) "legacy" drives around ... I might be able to help.

Not really looking to get access to them, just to point out that in another 20 or 30 or 50 years it'll be a whole lot tougher than opening up an old shoe box or finding a dusty album to look at your family history.

Tej

Canon EOS-400D Rebel XTi

03/12/2008 01:01:15 AM · #23

Originally posted by Gordon:

20, 30 years?!?!?! It ALREADY is!

03/12/2008 01:15:49 AM · #24

Originally posted by Tej:

Originally posted by Gordon:

Not really looking to get access to them, just to point out that in another 20 or 30 or 50 years it'll be a whole lot tougher than opening up an old shoe box or finding a dusty album to look at your family history.

20, 30 years?!?!?! It ALREADY is!

right. So it isn't going to be getting much better, is it ? Unless something shifts to take it more seriously.

Tej

Canon EOS-400D Rebel XTi