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02/25/2008 10:52:32 AM · #26 |
I think it also depends how much you like working with large teams of people and rampant egos.
Last shoot I saw that Leibocitz did, she had about 12 assistants just to take the pictures. You have
to want to be involved in those sorts of grandiose shoots to be part of that world. That was for
a fairly simple, two light setup shot.
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02/25/2008 11:10:34 AM · #27 |
| Leibovitz is history (or herstory, if you like ;-). She's an elder stateswoman of the art. Like buying Dell or IBM computers as do corporate types, getting Leibovitz to shoot the scene guarantees a certain Macdonalds quality and there is a name that many recognize to go with it. I guess we are all cutting edge for a minute or two, a week or two, a year or two, and then the zeitgeist moves on. That's life. If you want art a la mode, then look somewhere other than Leibovitz. 0.02 cents. |
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02/25/2008 11:16:16 AM · #28 |
Originally posted by superdave:
I think when people say its a hobby then thats just an excuse, ... |
Do you have any hobbies? Or just excuses? |
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02/25/2008 01:50:09 PM · #29 |
I'm pretty sure when the Medicis were giving commissions to the big guns there were plenty of disgruntled artistes walking around saying "Gimme a break! My man Giuseppe could out-fresco Big Mike with one hand tied behind his back!" But that really isn't the point. You slave for years and years, you earn your place in the pantheon of your times, clients (at long last) come to you for who you are and what your represent, and finally (finally!) you get to cash in on all those years, from your position as an elder statesman/eoman (so to speak). Does anyone here begrudge her that?
R.
Message edited by author 2008-02-25 13:50:43.
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02/25/2008 02:06:26 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
I'm pretty sure when the Medicis were giving commissions to the big guns there were plenty of disgruntled artistes walking around saying "Gimme a break! My man Giuseppe could out-fresco Big Mike with one hand tied behind his back!" But that really isn't the point. You slave for years and years, you earn your place in the pantheon of your times, clients (at long last) come to you for who you are and what your represent, and finally (finally!) you get to cash in on all those years, from your position as an elder statesman/eoman (so to speak). Does anyone here begrudge her that?
R. |
Looking around the 'net at the bagging she gets and the answer seems to be a loud and clear 'yes'.
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02/25/2008 06:18:21 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Does anyone here begrudge her that?
R. |
My view is that they are just luke warm images, at best. I think they did a terrible job with the models (and that's putting it nicely)...
Look at Jessica Biel in this image. I think she looks absolutely silly...so do Beyonce, Lyle Lovitt and Oliver Platt and frankly I could care less but what really gets me annoyed is when an artist (photographer)receives accolades for such as sub par performance. I won't even mention the Julie Andrews shot or JLo and Marc Anthony.
Am I disgruntled? No. Sad? Yes.
Of course it's just my opinion but I think they are a sad set of images and I can't for the life of me find it that hard to imagine getting better shots with that much talent, across the board.
My honest belief is that people easily get blinded by the name. I also believe that in Annie Liebovitz's case it holds hard and true. Again, I could care less what she does and that's not to say that she hasn't done some great work in her time...but either she's completely lost it or she's phoning it in. For heavens sake noone should lavish her automatically with praise in 2008 because she took some cool shots in the 70's/80's. That's my only gripe.
And for the record, I think the Medicis were a lot smarter than the people at Disney but both families have/had a great nose for money.
ETA: The Jessica Beil shot looks like something you'd see at the Museum Of Natural History.
Message edited by author 2008-02-25 18:25:14. |
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02/25/2008 08:42:59 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
ETA: The Jessica Beil shot looks like something you'd see at the Museum Of Natural History. |
If you don't mind I'll wright this quote down on my notebook. I think you found the words I've been missing many times to express myself. |
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02/25/2008 09:12:42 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Does anyone here begrudge her that?
R. |
My view is that they are just luke warm images, at best. I think they did a terrible job with the models (and that's putting it nicely)... |
I'm just curious, but what would you have liked to have seen in those images that wasn't captured? Wasn't this shoot for Disney? The first thing that pop into my head when I think of Disney is family as well as fun, excitement, etc. I doubt Disney would have liked something that had raw emotion or was edgy in any way.
Message edited by author 2008-02-25 21:14:17.
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02/25/2008 09:27:41 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Does anyone here begrudge her that?
R. |
My view is that they are just luke warm images, at best. I think they did a terrible job with the models (and that's putting it nicely)... |
I'm just curious, but what would you have liked to have seen in those images that wasn't captured? Wasn't this shoot for Disney? The first thing that pop into my head when I think of Disney is family as well as fun, excitement, etc. I doubt Disney would have liked something that had raw emotion or was edgy in any way. |
I would like to have seen some signs of life in their expressions and poses. As I said in my first post specifically regarding The Tea Cup, everyone seems detached from the the scene and eachother. They look like they were pasted in from various different photoshoots.
I'm not sure what other people are seeing but what I'm seeing seems completely lifeless. Give me a pulse...something...anything.
Jorge-"If you don't mind I'll wright this quote down on my notebook. I think you found the words I've been missing many times to express myself."
Feel free. She does look like she in one of the glass enclosed pre-historic scenes "Cro-Magnon-Beil Runs From Doe 120,000 BC. I couldn't stop laughing when I saw that one.
Message edited by author 2008-02-25 21:30:27. |
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02/25/2008 09:33:49 PM · #35 |
| I think thats just it. The images were taken of the people individually and then photoshopped into the scene... individually. Maybe annie had no idea what the photoshop people would even do with the photos. Its not really her vision from start to finish. Or, thats the feeling i get from it. Which is why i asked the question of whether or not she did her own photoshop work. She probably just took the photos and handed them over to the photoshop gurus that disney employed. Who knows. Maybe she did not choose which faces went into the final result. Maybe that is why the faces seem lifeless..because the photoshop monkeys dont see as annie would. |
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02/25/2008 09:45:59 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by grigrigirl:
I think thats just it. The images were taken of the people individually and then photoshopped into the scene... individually. Maybe annie had no idea what the photoshop people would even do with the photos. Its not really her vision from start to finish. Or, thats the feeling i get from it. Which is why i asked the question of whether or not she did her own photoshop work. She probably just took the photos and handed them over to the photoshop gurus that disney employed. Who knows. Maybe she did not choose which faces went into the final result. Maybe that is why the faces seem lifeless..because the photoshop monkeys dont see as annie would. |
I think she's even done that better before, maybe.
The Scarlet Johanssen shot works, many of the others seem to fall flat - lacking emotion or expression. I don't think they should be edgy or anything non-Disney, but the faces are so devoid of emotion - the Jessica Biel one in particular - just blah. Some of the photoshop work seems a bit sub-par too, consider how 'Peter Pan' is pasted in. Some are good, some are not so good, but many seem more lifeless than you'd expect - almost as if they were going for bland, cartoon expressions...
Photoshop isn't what's wrong with the Jessica Biel shot though, it looks like pure acting ability shining through. She can apparently look like that in different poses. and a bit of a 'making-of' video
Message edited by author 2008-02-25 21:53:58. |
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02/25/2008 09:46:24 PM · #37 |
Julia-I'm glad you see what I was talking about. I thought I was going insane or something.
If Annies not responsible, I will issue her a public apology within a few days (or the moment I get my head out of my rear-end) but I'll stick to my guns and hold my claim that those pix are still stinkin up the joint. ;)
I wonder if one of the "Photoshop Monkeys" accidentally got loose during the shoot and that's what Jessica Beil is actually running from? |
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02/25/2008 10:16:38 PM · #38 |
I wonder if one of the "Photoshop Monkeys" accidentally got loose during the shoot and that's what Jessica Beil is actually running from? HA! That one made me laugh.
Well, come on, an industry like Disney is gigantic. Annie is just one of the many "talents" used because the name draws a crowd. Im betting she had no control over it..nor did the actors. They are paid "talent" and thats as far as it goes. The final word comes from the corporate giants. They are the true leaders of our world. We are fed by them daily...TV, radio, newspapers, news stations, sports, etc. Its industry. With industry comes a little game of following certain rules while trying not to compromise your integrity. Political favors, being used, being shot in the face....the list goes on. Yeah, im disenchanted.
So..for superdave, there is big reason why some choose a hobbie over so-called success. It is not a fear of failure, but perhaps a fear of success and a fear of compromising all that you hold true and pure in your own way of seeing things. Annie compromised, and it looks as if she has been doing that for a long time.
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02/25/2008 11:28:40 PM · #39 |
This thread reminds me of an ESPN commercial that makes fun of NBA player Greg Oden's marketability. If you haven't seen it you can view it here. Most of it is a behind the scenes look but the first part of it shows the commercial.
Message edited by author 2008-02-25 23:30:04.
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02/26/2008 03:11:33 AM · #40 |
When people say the don't want to deal with the drama or bull then thats just an excuse. Every job you have or will have deals with drama. Thats just life! If it is a hobby you love then persue it, not sit on your ass and waste talent. If you love it so much, then why wouldn't you put up with a little extra crap to do something you love as a profession. People also need to grow out of this dpc mentality. No, dpc members are not better then annie liebovitz and its not even close. The whole dpc community together hasn't even accomplished what she has.The comprimising stuff is crap too! You have to compromise with most things in life. You don't and never will always get what you want.
Message edited by author 2008-02-26 03:21:48. |
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02/26/2008 05:10:28 AM · #41 |
there is a reason why they call it selling your soul to the devil when you compromise your integrity, personal truth and vision for the sake of fame and fortune. Yes, we all have to pay our bills. Success is measured in more ways than one. I wish you all the success in the world, otherwise, your a failure by your own thinking. I think I am doing pretty well by sticking to my guns..so far.
Superdave, arent you the one that has something negative to say when the likes of Joey Lawrence gets a bit of recognition in the world. Are you jealous? Do you feel like a failure?
You dont and never will always get what you want? I beg to differ. I always get what I want. It just takes time and determination. So far, I have gotten what I want and I keep on dreaming for more. I will get exactly where I want to be...or die trying.
You have a defeatist attitude. |
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02/26/2008 05:24:42 AM · #42 |
i'm thinking about the emotions discussion here and keep thinking that in original cartoons and books the emotions/expressions where exactly the same, no super emotions/expressions involved on that part ... so i think the work done here is exactly as it should be. and it's great. yea. :-*
Message edited by author 2008-02-26 05:25:48. |
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02/26/2008 07:32:04 AM · #43 |
Originally posted by superdave:
When people say the don't want to deal with the drama or bull then thats just an excuse. Every job you have or will have deals with drama. Thats just life! If it is a hobby you love then persue it, not sit on your ass and waste talent. If you love it so much, then why wouldn't you put up with a little extra crap to do something you love as a profession. People also need to grow out of this dpc mentality. No, dpc members are not better then annie liebovitz and its not even close. The whole dpc community together hasn't even accomplished what she has.The comprimising stuff is crap too! You have to compromise with most things in life. You don't and never will always get what you want. |
Dave-I'm not sure it's worth a reply because it's near impossible to unravel such tortured logic. For starters, it's NOT a DPC thing. There's amazing talent everywhere and bear in mind that many of the greatest artists we could list of all time died unknown. Think.. Van Gough.
Doing something as a hobby or even as a paying hobby is a far throw from doing it for a living. What you seem to have missed is that when you do something for a living it may no longer bring pleasure. Keep in mind that 80% of the people that go to the top cooking schools in the country...who dream of being Chefs are OUT of the industry within 5 years. Why? Because cooking for a living can really suck. It's nothing like doing it on a smaller scale and I should mention that some of these folks are very good at it but it's no "BAM" TV show experience, out in the real world. It can be nasty work and so can photography (think Weddings!) Back on topic...Emeril CAN'T cook. He couldn't cook his way out of a paper bag but he's a sweetheart of a guy and he marketed himself wonderfully. Some people aren't as charming and the rest just might not have a taste for kissing ass, which is part of the game. To your post, It's NOT all the same and the pressure and politics run differently in every industry. For the record, I've worked with Emeril 3 times and I know many people that have been part of his top crew members for years. They keep him away from the food.
As for me, I do make some good money doing this photography thing and I do have the luxury of taking work that I like to do. It's a beautiful thing but I would dread...DREAD doing jobs because I was worried about paying the rent. If I were to quit my day job... even if I made $800 per shoot and averaged two shoots a week, I could stand to lose a good deal of income and it's a very unsteady way to make a living. Any slouch in the economy and you could go down the drain. I also don't work very hard...I call most of the shots and I'm virtually free of politics and bullshit.
I doubt I'll change your mind but just the fact that someone's at the top doesn't mean shizzle. If you think so, it's sad to imagine what you've been missing. Believe it or not some of the best plays in town are Off Broadway, Off Off Broadway and in tiny little theaters hidden away... Not always in the big show. If you've seen Cats, you might know what I mean. I'm still having a very hard time recovering from that experience. ;P
All for now.
Message edited by author 2008-02-26 10:29:50. |
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02/26/2008 08:56:31 AM · #44 |
Originally posted by superdave:
When people say the don't want to deal with the drama or bull then thats just an excuse. Every job you have or will have deals with drama. Thats just life! If it is a hobby you love then persue it, not sit on your ass and waste talent. If you love it so much, then why wouldn't you put up with a little extra crap to do something you love as a profession. . |
Because then you'd have to find a hobby ? |
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02/26/2008 09:12:08 AM · #45 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by superdave:
When people say the don't want to deal with the drama or bull then thats just an excuse. Every job you have or will have deals with drama. Thats just life! If it is a hobby you love then persue it, not sit on your ass and waste talent. If you love it so much, then why wouldn't you put up with a little extra crap to do something you love as a profession. . |
Because then you'd have to find a hobby ? |
Now that is funny :) |
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02/26/2008 09:21:26 AM · #46 |
waste talent?
The following are just some of my hobbies:
photography, racquetball, video games, tennis, cooking, reading, woodwork, and from time to time I surf the internet
If I don't become a professional for each of these, am I wasting my talent? Your argument implies that no one should have any hobbies, but rather a career that we love and nothing else. I'm curious, how old are you?
Originally posted by superdave:
If it is a hobby you love then persue it, not sit on your ass and waste talent. |
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02/26/2008 10:59:07 AM · #47 |
Originally posted by goc:
i'm thinking about the emotions discussion here and keep thinking that in original cartoons and books the emotions/expressions where exactly the same, no super emotions/expressions involved on that part ... so i think the work done here is exactly as it should be. and it's great. yea. :-* |
<<>>
Damn, you made me do it!!!
Am I gonna have to parade ALL Seven Dwarfs up in your stuff, now???
Sorry, I didn't wanna have to go there but those little buggers drip with emotion and if they aren't enough to make my point, I'll have to sick Queen Maleficent (Cruella DeVille...too much???) on you too and Bugs Bunny AND Daffy Duck while I'm at it...
And if they don't pack a powerful enough punch of expression or emotion...then I'm going with Bambi (and his mother). My two Aces in the hole.
Dick Tracy? OK...no emotion. But Disney? C'mon.
Here's a nice little collection of AL's better work.
Message edited by author 2008-02-26 12:56:57. |
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02/26/2008 01:12:26 PM · #48 |
These pictures achieve exactly what they intended to..The disney theme propagated through some wow and star factor. I doubt anybody's going to look at them for more then a second especially if they're placed in public places to start finding any flaws in them. The big-ness of the idea (stars posing as disney stars *woah* //sarcasm) and photoshopping glitz is enough to bypass any photographic merit.
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02/26/2008 01:31:06 PM · #49 |
I find myself agreeing and disagreeing with a lot of the comments. Quite simply, some of the images work, some of the images don't work. Some look silly, some raise to a high level of storytelling.
But isn't that the way it usually is for all of us? |
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02/26/2008 05:29:59 PM · #50 |
The Godfather (Pacino) "I thought I was out, but they keep pulling me back in! ..." :)
Urfa - I don't think the discussion is about whether or not people can smack together proven ingredients and successfully satisfy the masses (Star power, glitzy sets and costumes and "photoshop monkeys")or in this case pleasing little kids. That's a discussion for the guys in the boardroom who want to sell things to people, even if it means hitting rock bottom. You'll never go broke understimating the (American?) public. They say...
Formula works, no argument from me, there. I fully agree that those photo's will be well received by the public.
But since this is a site to discuss and learn photography I'd hope we'd shoot a little higher and use a more discerning eye. I'm guessing most of us would like to be in a different league when it comes to this particular topic?
FWIW I don't think the Whoopee shot is a total dissaster, though she does look like she just caught The Pope in a compromising position. My "inner-DPC-child" isn't crazy about the crop. DOH!
Cheers
Message edited by author 2008-02-26 18:15:29. |
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