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02/18/2008 01:29:11 PM · #51 |
A few random thoughts regarding the most recent posts.
First, this is not a Leroy Witch Hunt. It's not like we woke up one morning and said, "Let's pick on Leroy!" He complained about posts on his shots, and posted a blatantly offensive response to someone who posted one of those comments. We were well within our rights to ban him from posting anything just for doing that, and no one on SC has pulled the trigger.
Secondly, to say that people here are not so immature that they would remove any non-complimentary posting on their sites is absurd and naive. Look at how many people only check complimentary posts as being helpful! I guarantee you that those same users would definitely click the magical delete button if given the opportunity to remove any critique that is less than glowing.
Third, to respond to the idea that removing comments isn't harmful (because the person who posted the shot will have seen the comment before removing it)... the point of leaving comments on shots is not only to benefit the person who took the shot, but to the benefit of the community as a whole. I don't know about you, but I am here to learn. And to look at a shot that has nothing but "great shot," or "excellent composition" on it, doesn't help me learn a thing. Reading critical reviews is how we learn -- there's really little if anything to be learned from most of the complimentary reviews on shots. If ya can't handle criticism, don't invite it.
Fourth, as I've said in so many words before, if you're afraid of what people might say about a given shot... don't post it! Nobody is forced to submit anything here. Again, if you can't handle criticism, then you shouldn't be inviting it.
Message edited by author 2008-02-18 13:33:17. |
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02/18/2008 01:32:47 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by alanfreed:
Secondly, to say that people here are not so immature that they would remove any non-complimentary posting on their sites is absurd and naive. Look at how many people only check complimentary posts as being helpful! I guarantee you that those same users would definitely click the magical delete button if given the opportunity to remove anything less than glowing. |
So? You'd also be left with those people who enjoy constructive criticism, who like the hits about their style, and who want to learn from negative comments, thus never using the magic button. The structure of the site would not collapse, should users be given the ability to delete comments. |
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02/18/2008 01:33:49 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by alanfreed:
...If you can't handle criticism, then you shouldn't be inviting it.
... Again, if ya can't handle criticism, don't invite it. |
I agree with you as far as criticism, but does that also apply to insults?
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02/18/2008 01:34:29 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by Louis:
So? You'd also be left with those people who enjoy constructive criticism, who like the hits about their style, and who want to learn from negative comments, thus never using the magic button. The structure of the site would not collapse, should users be given the ability to delete comments. |
No, we'd be left with people who would never bother to leave comments any longer because they'd just be deleted anyway. Sorry. |
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02/18/2008 01:35:02 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by alanfreed:
...Fourth, as I've said in so many words before, if you're afraid of what people might say about a given shot... don't post it! Nobody is forced to submit anything here. Again, if you can't handle criticism, then you shouldn't be inviting it. |
Again though, this isn't really a debate about whether Leroy can handle criticism, it's a debate over whether he was being criticized or his model was and how the situation should be handled if he feels his model was unfairly criticized. |
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02/18/2008 01:36:29 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by alanfreed:
Originally posted by Louis:
So? You'd also be left with those people who enjoy constructive criticism, who like the hits about their style, and who want to learn from negative comments, thus never using the magic button. The structure of the site would not collapse, should users be given the ability to delete comments. |
No, we'd be left with people who would never bother to leave comments any longer because they'd just be deleted anyway. Sorry. |
That's a "sky is falling" argument, and it doesn't wash. You're effectively suggesting that 100% of the user base would delete constructive criticism not favourable to their photos. I find that highly cynical. |
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02/18/2008 01:36:38 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by alanfreed:
Speaking as one SC member (I'm not sure how the others feel), I did not find the two comments you reported to be rude. |
I don't think you (and all SC) should be concerned about analysing where a comment is offensive or not. A word from the photo’s owner should be enough for removing a comment.
Better... A “Delete Comment Button” should be available. The photographer must have the power to control everything about (and around) his work. I don't understand why (here at DPC) a commenter has the same power as the photographer.
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02/18/2008 01:38:28 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by De Sousa:
I don't understand why (here at DPC) a commenter has the same power as the photographer. |
Because those are the rules at this ballpark?
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02/18/2008 01:39:27 PM · #59 |
How about having a system where 3 ppl have to agree with you so you hit the delete button and then 3 other people have to agree that this comment should not be on the only thing is the other 3 ppl should have to be fully paying members so that it cuts down on the amount of people just creating multiple accounts so they can remove there own comments
for example
rude comment here
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02/18/2008 01:39:29 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by alanfreed:
A few random thoughts regarding the most recent posts.
First, this is not a Leroy Witch Hunt. It's not like we woke up one morning and said, "Let's pick on Leroy!" He complained about posts on his shots, and posted a blatantly offensive response to someone who posted one of those comments. We were well within our rights to ban him from posting anything just for doing that, and no one has pulled the trigger.
Secondly, to say that people here are not so immature that they would remove any non-complimentary posting on their sites is absurd and naive. Look at how many people only check complimentary posts as being helpful! I guarantee you that those same users would definitely click the magical delete button if given the opportunity to remove anything less than glowing.
Third, as I've said in so many words before, if you're afraid of what people might say about a given shot... don't post it! Nobody is forced to submit anything here. If you can't handle criticism, then you shouldn't be inviting it.
Fourth... to respond to the idea that removing comments isn't harmful (because the person who posted the shot will have seen the comment before removing it)... the point of leaving comments on shots is not only to benefit the person who took the shot, but to the benefit of the community as a whole. I don't know about you, but I am here to learn. And to look at a shot that has nothing but "great shot," or "excellent composition" on it, doesn't help me learn a thing. Reading critical reviews is how we learn -- there's really little if anything to be learned from most of the complimentary reviews on shots. Again, if ya can't handle criticism, don't invite it. |
Tell me... exactly what do you learn from a comment that critisizes a models appearance.
I don't have to read between the lines to know that Leroy's been in the penalty box for quite a long time. SC can hide behind the TOS as it's written till the cows come home but there's been many a time that interpretation has come into play and I believe that all Leroy's is asking for is a right to protect his models from comments that in no way come across as constructive. Leroy's style may not be to everyone's taste but I for one respect his efforts and admire his contributions. What he's asking for is not groundbreaking and his opinion is valid. If it's important enough for him to bring forward, it's important enough to be taken seriously. |
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02/18/2008 01:40:42 PM · #61 |
I don't mean to throw gasoline on a fire, but there was another thread where Leroy commented that his model had "Junk in her trunk" I though this was rude and was blasted for saying that I though this was slanderous. To me that statement means Fat AS* Now he's complaining that some else commented that his model had a belly. I think thats a double standard. I beleive that the photographer is no longer able to be objective with photos containing these models.
Kevin
Edit to post link
//www.dpchallenge.com/forum.php?action=read&FORUM_THREAD_ID=736932&highlight=porn
Message edited by author 2008-02-18 13:42:05. |
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02/18/2008 01:43:59 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by oscarthepig:
Can you simply delete the photo and re-upload it? Wouldn't that get rid of the comments? Or maybe it's part of a challenge? Can those be deleted? |
Only for non-challenge photos. And that is a bit of baby and bathwater.
That said, I have done it, because SC didn't see fit to remove comments.
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02/18/2008 01:44:02 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by alanfreed:
Secondly, to say that people here are not so immature that they would remove any non-complimentary posting on their sites is absurd and naive. Look at how many people only check complimentary posts as being helpful! I guarantee you that those same users would definitely click the magical delete button if given the opportunity to remove any critique that is less than glowing. |
So given the choice, would you, Alan, delete constructive negative comments on your images ?
If not, why do you think everyone else would ? Sure, some people might - perhaps the other side is to have an 'disable comments' option on an entry - maybe you just want the score, not the feedback.
Given most of the threads are people wanting more comments, I find it unlikely that the comment system would collapse. I get plenty of comments that I don't particularly agree with, rude or not. I still mark them helpful. I wouldn't delete them either. But I don't really understand why you think choice is such a terrible danger.
I make a comment. The photographer doesn't like it and ignores it. It stays on the photo.
I make a comment. The photographer doesn't like it and ignores it. They delete it off the photo.
Hasn't cost me any additional time or effort. They aren't going to listen anyway - so I've 'wasted' my time either way.
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02/18/2008 01:44:29 PM · #64 |
No, it is an extremely realistic point of view, and I stand by it. One wouldn't think that people here would be so shallow that they'd only check complimentary comments as being helpful, but it happens with a significant number of submitters. No, the number of people who do that is nowhere near 100% of the population. Please quote me and show me exactly where I suggested this would be the case with 100% of the population, by the way.
Enough people would indeed delete criticisms to the point that it would taint the effectiveness of comments. I'm not one to say the sky is falling in the least... but take your head out of the sand and see how many people don't bother to check critical comments as helpful. I promise that's an accurate indicator of how many people would take action to delete anything less than a compliment.
Originally posted by Louis:
No, we'd be left with people who would never bother to leave comments any longer because they'd just be deleted anyway. Sorry. |
That's a "sky is falling" argument, and it doesn't wash. You're effectively suggesting that 100% of the user base would delete constructive criticism not favourable to their photos. I find that highly cynical. [/quote] |
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02/18/2008 01:45:00 PM · #65 |
how about a delete button with an explination of why you deleted it,
have a drop down menu with choices such as
Rude to Photographer
Insulted Subject / model or loved one or favorite rusty car.
Etc.
Etc.
This way the commentor will be able to see why their comment was removed and perhaps learn a better way to express their oppinion the next time.
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02/18/2008 01:45:08 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by iamkmaniam:
I don't mean to throw gasoline on a fire, but there was another thread where Leroy commented that his model had "Junk in her trunk" I though this was rude and was blasted for saying that I though this was slanderous. To me that statement means Fat AS* Now he's complaining that some else commented that his model had a belly. I think thats a double standard. I beleive that the photographer is no longer able to be objective with photos containing these models.
Kevin
Edit to post link
//www.dpchallenge.com/forum.php?action=read&FORUM_THREAD_ID=736932&highlight=porn |
Agreed, we should all have the right to post that a post about a PERSON is offensive and the comment should then either be re-written or deleted.
Where is the line in all this?
We can call a model fat, ok, so than can we say a model's skin is too dark? That their eyes are to "slanted"? That they are too old?
What does that teach us about photography? |
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02/18/2008 01:45:46 PM · #67 |
| A poor choice of camera angle can make even a supermodel's belly/chin/etc. look unflattering, while a good camera angle can work wonders on models with less than supermodel features. Thus, while the comment mentions the model, it's very much related to the photography. If the concern is truly about how the model might feel, we DO have this swell PM system and a polite note to the commenter will usually resolve the matter. Very few voters intend to be malicious. |
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02/18/2008 01:45:53 PM · #68 |
It's been brought up that should users be able to delete comments, the only ones left would be the ones giving praise. There has to be room for criticism and users need to be able to expect and accept criticism. Rudeness, on the other hand is just not acceptable.
The question is what do we expect from the administrators. Managing a site like this must be a great challenge. With the number of users and the number of potential complaints that could arise (of rude comments), I cannot see them being able to investigate all. So deleting comments seems wrong and expecting someone to referee each comment or even each complaint seems impossible.
The only thing left is a compromise. Users can flag comments as helpful. What if they could also flag them as rude? If a user gives many rude comments they come under the microsope of the administration. What happens next such as required appologies, removal of comments or expulsion from the group would have to be well defined. At least then a comment being removed could be decided by a number of administrators hopefully removing rudeness and leaving true criticism.
Also IMO a photograph is beautiful or not regardless of the subject. You can have a stunning photo of the old, the decrepid, the large, the destitute... and poor photo of the young, the beautiful, the thin, the rich... Each may deserve some praise and some criticism. |
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02/18/2008 01:46:21 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by iamkmaniam:
I don't mean to throw gasoline on a fire, but there was another thread where Leroy commented that his model had "Junk in her trunk" I though this was rude and was blasted for saying that I though this was slanderous. To me that statement means Fat AS* Now he's complaining that some else commented that his model had a belly. I think thats a double standard. I beleive that the photographer is no longer able to be objective with photos containing these models.
Kevin
Edit to post link
//www.dpchallenge.com/forum.php?action=read&FORUM_THREAD_ID=736932&highlight=porn |
Um yeah he said it about his own model and she is a friend of his and they were playing around. Hardly the same thing dude. |
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02/18/2008 01:47:21 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by alanfreed:
Enough people would indeed delete criticisms to the point that it would taint the effectiveness of comments. I'm not one to say the sky is falling in the least... but take your head out of the sand and see how many people don't bother to check critical comments as helpful. I promise that's an accurate indicator of how many people would take action to delete anything less than a compliment. |
and... so what ? They obviously don't value the comment anyway. You seem to believe they are telling the commentor that by not marking it helpful. So why not throw it away ? It's already been 'wasted'
What's the down side ? Other people don't get to see your witty and constructive negative comments ? Does it matter ?
It seems like you are seeing the vast majority of the entries are from immature photographers who can't stand negative criticism. if so, I should just stop commenting now as nobody wants to hear it. That true ? If so - a delete button isn't going to change it, just make that fact more visible. Do you believe we are all just wasting our time ?
Message edited by author 2008-02-18 13:49:07.
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02/18/2008 01:48:54 PM · #71 |
The photographer is the best, and should be only, judge of whether a comment is hurtful or not to a particular model. The same comment that one model may simply shrug off might be devastating to a different model. DPC models are usually amateurs and not "hardened" pros. The photographer should be given the "delete comment" button.
This might be a good topic for a poll question. |
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02/18/2008 01:49:53 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
So given the choice, would you, Alan, delete constructive negative comments on your images ?
If not, why do you think everyone else would ? |
No, I absolutely would not remove negative comments on my images (and the vast, vast majority of them are checked as "helpful" because if they're truly constructive criticisms, I have learned from them). I'm not going to address the second question, because I've already answered it ad nauseum above, and I'm not going to sit here and repeat myself all day. |
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02/18/2008 01:51:09 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by Qart:
Tell me... exactly what do you learn from a comment that critisizes a models appearance. ... |
Isn't that to be expected when you are using models for nude work? Suggestive nudes at that. Not side-lit artistic nudescapes...
Seems to be the only time Leroy makes the delete comments suggestion - when it's on a nude model.
Do you think Playboy is selective about the models it uses? Sure it does. If you're using nude models in a sexy, suggestive manner, then that model needs to be appealing to the viewing audience.
Did  DrJOnes get a lot of negative comments regarding his models? Can't seem to remember him complaining much about comments.
In this line of work (suggestive nudes) the model IS important IMO. |
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02/18/2008 01:52:15 PM · #74 |
Originally posted by alanfreed:
Originally posted by Gordon:
So given the choice, would you, Alan, delete constructive negative comments on your images ?
If not, why do you think everyone else would ? |
No, I absolutely would not remove negative comments on my images (and the vast, vast majority of them are checked as "helpful" because if they're truly constructive criticisms, I have learned from them). I'm not going to address the second question, because I've already answered it ad nauseum above, and I'm not going to sit here and repeat myself all day. |
You still haven't answered why you think it is actually a bad thing though. So far I don't see the sense to the argument, other than it would require someone to code it, which seems to be the major stumbling block.
Originally posted by alanfreed:
No, we'd be left with people who would never bother to leave comments any longer because they'd just be deleted anyway. Sorry. |
This seems to be the real thing you believe would happen. But then that must mean nobody values the comments, if they'd just throw them all away ?
Message edited by author 2008-02-18 13:53:39.
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02/18/2008 01:53:16 PM · #75 |
Originally posted by alanfreed:
Please quote me and show me exactly where I suggested this would be the case with 100% of the population, by the way. |
Sure. I said some would delete, but others (in my view the majority) would not. You said, "no, people would stop commenting altogeother". That's when I suggested you were effectively throwing 100% of the user base into the "delete negative comments" group.
Even considering both sides, who cares? What does it ultimately matter that there exists a group of users, however large it may be, that will delete all constructive criticism from their images?
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