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01/09/2008 03:37:34 PM · #226 |
Originally posted by scarbrd:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by trevytrev:
Actually a Democratic systems is the majority rules, ie popular vote. We, fortunalty, live in a republic where we elect representatives to speak for us. The electoral college is a pretty solid system that, like Robert stated, prevents a certain region from getting a stranglehold on political offices and pushing their views upon the minority. |
This is correct. We are a Republic. And our system is, in theory, closer to the roots of Democracy than any winner-take-all, majority-rules system.
R. |
I'll add that I heard it put very well, I don't remeber by whom,
A Republic is more than "majority rules", it is the protection of the minority voice. |
Absolutely. Check this out:
//www.qando.net/details.aspx?Entry=5544
R.
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01/09/2008 03:39:07 PM · #227 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
If it were winner take all, no one would care about anything outside of Calif, Texas, Florida and NY. Smaller states like Vermont, Rhode Island, Wyoming and about 30 others would be greatly ignored. |
Precisely the point.
R. |
Maybe I'm late to the conversation, but the Electoral College IS winner take all. If a candidate wins 50% + 1 vote in that state's general election, all the state's Electors go for that candidate. In fact, that is exactly how you can have someone win less than 50% of the popular vote, but still win the Electoral vote.
From my studies, the Electoral College was instituted to make up for a lack of mass communication abilities. The people 200+ years ago didn't know much about the candidates, so they voted for Electors whose job it was to go learn about the candidates and cast their votes accordingly on behalf of the people.
That is of course not all there is, but that was critical element to the creation of the Electoral College.
The question is, do we really need it today? I'm not saying we should get rid of it, but let's see it for what it is and what is was meant to be.
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01/09/2008 03:41:40 PM · #228 |
Originally posted by scarbrd:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
If it were winner take all, no one would care about anything outside of Calif, Texas, Florida and NY. Smaller states like Vermont, Rhode Island, Wyoming and about 30 others would be greatly ignored. |
Precisely the point.
R. |
Maybe I'm late to the conversation, but the Electoral College IS winner take all. If a candidate wins 50% + 1 vote in that state's general election, all the state's Electors go for that candidate. |
That's not strictly true. some states do it that way, some assign their electors based on % of votes received. It's up to each state to decide how to assign its electors.
R.
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01/09/2008 03:44:36 PM · #229 |
a fascinating discussion, thanks everyone! I know its a bit off topic for this thread, and I'm sorry for starting that up. Would you guys care to continue in another thread?
In basic terms, Canada uses a constituency system both provincially and federally, where each province is cut up into small areas, and each small area runs a candidate from at least two, usually 4 or 5 parties. The people in that area vote for the person they like best.
Each of those people then gets a spot in the house of commons. The party with the most elected members forms the government, the second most form the official opposition. I quite like the system as it allows at least two parties, often three parties, to have a voice in the house of commons and a vote on all issues, whether or not they form the majority (or minority as we have now) government.
Message edited by author 2008-01-09 15:47:14. |
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01/09/2008 03:51:02 PM · #230 |
Originally posted by karmat:
Edwards's answer to "health care" would be to make sure that all doctors are sued to the maximum limit for malpractice so that they had to go out of business. |
ok, then tell me which candidate is for socialized medicine and I'll put him/her in charge of health care. Until then, I pick Edwards because I'm hoping he will be the most anti-health-insurance-companies. |
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01/09/2008 03:55:18 PM · #231 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by karmat:
Edwards's answer to "health care" would be to make sure that all doctors are sued to the maximum limit for malpractice so that they had to go out of business. |
ok, then tell me which candidate is for socialized medicine and I'll put him/her in charge of health care. Until then, I pick Edwards because I'm hoping he will be the most anti-health-insurance-companies. |
based on my experience with him in NC, he is simply an anti-doctor lawyer. :(
insurance companies are evil. |
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01/09/2008 04:00:48 PM · #232 |
| I admit that I get a bad personal vibe from Edwards. He seems smarmy. But maybe that's just me being prejudiced against his Southern drawl. Besides, I don't trust personal impressions of presidential candidates. Dubya seems like more fun at a party than Kerry. The best personal vibe I get from all the candidates is from Huckabee, and he's the last one I'd vote for. |
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01/09/2008 04:03:36 PM · #233 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by karmat:
Edwards's answer to "health care" would be to make sure that all doctors are sued to the maximum limit for malpractice so that they had to go out of business. |
ok, then tell me which candidate is for socialized medicine and I'll put him/her in charge of health care. Until then, I pick Edwards because I'm hoping he will be the most anti-health-insurance-companies. |
I don't think that one particular section of the health care system can be put to blame. It is a system wide failure, from the insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies, doctors, hospitals, lawyers and even the consumers. I don't pretend to know a fix b/c it's not going to be easy but something does need to be done. Al I know is that when the government gets involved in things, usually it gets more fubar. |
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01/09/2008 04:04:23 PM · #234 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by karmat:
Edwards's answer to "health care" would be to make sure that all doctors are sued to the maximum limit for malpractice so that they had to go out of business. |
ok, then tell me which candidate is for socialized medicine and I'll put him/her in charge of health care. Until then, I pick Edwards because I'm hoping he will be the most anti-health-insurance-companies. |
Don't you have health insurance? What's wrong with your health care? |
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01/09/2008 04:11:40 PM · #235 |
Originally posted by cloudsme:
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by karmat:
Edwards's answer to "health care" would be to make sure that all doctors are sued to the maximum limit for malpractice so that they had to go out of business. |
ok, then tell me which candidate is for socialized medicine and I'll put him/her in charge of health care. Until then, I pick Edwards because I'm hoping he will be the most anti-health-insurance-companies. |
Don't you have health insurance? What's wrong with your health care? |
it's completely dependent on me or my spouse being employed at a company with benefits and then when anything actually happens they don't want to pay. |
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01/09/2008 04:16:45 PM · #236 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
I admit that I get a bad personal vibe from Edwards. He seems smarmy. But maybe that's just me being prejudiced against his Southern drawl. Besides, I don't trust personal impressions of presidential candidates. Dubya seems like more fun at a party than Kerry. The best personal vibe I get from all the candidates is from Huckabee, and he's the last one I'd vote for. |
I have a southern accent, so I don't think I'm prejudiced against that.
But, I do think smarmy is a good word to describe him. |
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01/09/2008 04:20:26 PM · #237 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
If it were winner take all, no one would care about anything outside of Calif, Texas, Florida and NY. Smaller states like Vermont, Rhode Island, Wyoming and about 30 others would be greatly ignored. |
This makes me wonder that the real reason for the electoral college is due to the US being a federal republic.
If you removed the somewhat arbitrary (these days) state boundary lines and called the whole lot 'America' would a democratic system make more sense ?
I.e., the relative size of the states and their population gives a differential weighting to their power in a true democracy, so it had to be tempered to actually get a system where the states could come together.
If people could communicate better and form non-local groupings of those with similar interests (i.e., remove the geographic locality issues) then a true democratic process might make more sense. Unlikely though, everyone seems to be getting more insular and nationalistic, not less. |
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01/09/2008 05:24:00 PM · #238 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by cloudsme:
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by karmat:
Edwards's answer to "health care" would be to make sure that all doctors are sued to the maximum limit for malpractice so that they had to go out of business. |
ok, then tell me which candidate is for socialized medicine and I'll put him/her in charge of health care. Until then, I pick Edwards because I'm hoping he will be the most anti-health-insurance-companies. |
Don't you have health insurance? What's wrong with your health care? |
it's completely dependent on me or my spouse being employed at a company with benefits and then when anything actually happens they don't want to pay. |
You think the government will pay better? ha ha
Message edited by author 2008-01-09 17:25:03. |
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01/09/2008 06:02:31 PM · #239 |
Originally posted by cloudsme:
Originally posted by posthumous:
it's completely dependent on me or my spouse being employed at a company with benefits and then when anything actually happens they don't want to pay. |
You think the government will pay better? ha ha |
um, in socialized medicine the government doesn't pay, the government provides the health care. |
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01/09/2008 06:23:31 PM · #240 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by cloudsme:
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by karmat:
Edwards's answer to "health care" would be to make sure that all doctors are sued to the maximum limit for malpractice so that they had to go out of business. |
ok, then tell me which candidate is for socialized medicine and I'll put him/her in charge of health care. Until then, I pick Edwards because I'm hoping he will be the most anti-health-insurance-companies. |
Don't you have health insurance? What's wrong with your health care? |
it's completely dependent on me or my spouse being employed at a company with benefits and then when anything actually happens they don't want to pay. |
Have you seen the movie "Sicko"? It hits the nail right on the head. |
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01/09/2008 06:29:43 PM · #241 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by cloudsme:
Originally posted by posthumous:
it's completely dependent on me or my spouse being employed at a company with benefits and then when anything actually happens they don't want to pay. |
You think the government will pay better? ha ha |
um, in socialized medicine the government doesn't pay, the government provides the health care. |
As a self employed person, healthcare is a big issue for me. However, I can't say I'm for socialized healthcare. Now if such a solution brought my overall costs down and kept the quality of care the same or better (and having long waits and worse doctors is not keeping quality up) then I'd be all for it. Fat chance of that happening especially with a government that has pretty much botched up every other entitlement program in the past.
Message edited by author 2008-01-09 18:30:54.
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01/09/2008 06:30:43 PM · #242 |
vote for Ralph !!!
( Wiggum that is ;)
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01/09/2008 07:42:35 PM · #243 |
| Wow...Some of the entries on this thread prove the point of "The Irony of Democracy" (a book I read for college) The masses aren't democratic but more like anarchists (they agree with free speech until its something that they don't approve of).....It's the elite that protect the democratic ideology through our republic.....It's what I believe and why I vote.... |
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01/09/2008 07:54:27 PM · #244 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
If you removed the somewhat arbitrary (these days) state boundary lines and called the whole lot 'America' would a democratic system make more sense ?
I.e., the relative size of the states and their population gives a differential weighting to their power in a true democracy, so it had to be tempered to actually get a system where the states could come together. |
But this wasn't true in the days of the founders. When the college was established.
R.
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01/10/2008 01:06:27 AM · #245 |
Folks in this thread might enjoy this campaign game.
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01/10/2008 07:57:38 AM · #246 |
You might enjoy this also:
Candidate Calculator |
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01/10/2008 10:41:34 AM · #247 |
Who the hell is John Cox? Whoever he is, I should be voting for him.
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01/10/2008 10:58:09 AM · #248 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Gordon:
If you removed the somewhat arbitrary (these days) state boundary lines and called the whole lot 'America' would a democratic system make more sense ?
I.e., the relative size of the states and their population gives a differential weighting to their power in a true democracy, so it had to be tempered to actually get a system where the states could come together. |
But this wasn't true in the days of the founders. When the college was established.
R. |
hence the 'these days' in my comment. |
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01/10/2008 11:58:07 AM · #249 |
My candidate, apparently, should be Mike Gravel... |
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01/10/2008 12:37:19 PM · #250 |
| I got John Cox too. Never heard of him. |
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