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01/04/2008 07:55:39 PM · #76 |
Originally posted by Judi:
Originally posted by briantammy:
Originally posted by Judi:
Originally posted by SaraR:
So I take it something like this skateboarding composition wouldn't be allowed? Nor this day-long one, as it would fall foul of the internal borders/frames rule? What about this?
But, I take it, this lightning image would be allowed?
Very confused.... |
All but the day long should be okay according to what has been stated in this thread. That is....if they were all shot in one burst only. And not merged from 3 reruns of the same action/scene. |
I didn't think burst shooting was a requirment as it would take quite of few shots to do a moon rise sequence. |
Okay...let me rephrase it....burst = one action sequence. You cannot photograph one action sequence 3 times and merge the best images from all of them. |
got it. |
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01/04/2008 08:09:09 PM · #77 |
| I'm still not sure myself what̢۪s acceptable and what isn̢۪t. It almost sounds like the rules don't allow for a "Time Lapse" as most of us see it. It really sounds like only a long exposure over time will follow all of the rules. I will tell you this. I did a shot where I opened the shutter for 23 seconds at f/18 in a very dim room and flashed my subject in motion. I think it shows movement over time rather than motion blur. One thing is for sure. It's only one frame and the editing I had to do was very little. So if the powers to be kick it out I will be surprised to say the least. Now I'll wait to see the out come. At this point I will be happy with just staying in the mix after all is said and done. I really just want to understand the rules and live by them so as to not get the boot if I should happen to win a ribbon. So in the end I will see this challenge as a learning experience no matter what the outcome is. |
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01/04/2008 08:32:19 PM · #78 |
Originally posted by Judi:
.. burst = one action sequence. You cannot photograph one action sequence 3 times and merge the best images from all of them. |
it seems there's a very fine line here between wot's going to be accepted and wot isnt & not just regarding when the sequence was photographed ...
but my golfer was one action sequence ..
i photographed him as he approached the tee, bent down and then hit the ball .. he didnt approach the tee several times with me shooting him each time and then selecting the best images to fit in the final process .. i dont think he even knew i was photographing him when i took these photographs ..
i did however only chose the three photographs you see in the final image when there were four .. i didnt use one in the sequence because it was 'on top' of another image .. also i wasnt using a tripod so each 'scene' is slightly different, which i've compensated for in my processing ..
its probably too late for me to enter my golfer now even if it was found that it satisfies the challenge with the info i've given .. but i still dont understand how it doesnt satisfy the time lapse framework .. and i'm not alone in that feeling .. :)
Message edited by author 2008-01-05 14:41:14.
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01/04/2008 08:44:21 PM · #79 |
Originally posted by Judi:
Originally posted by briantammy:
Originally posted by Judi:
Originally posted by SaraR:
So I take it something like this skateboarding composition wouldn't be allowed? Nor this day-long one, as it would fall foul of the internal borders/frames rule? What about this?
But, I take it, this lightning image would be allowed?
Very confused.... |
All but the day long should be okay according to what has been stated in this thread. That is....if they were all shot in one burst only. And not merged from 3 reruns of the same action/scene. |
I didn't think burst shooting was a requirment as it would take quite of few shots to do a moon rise sequence. |
Okay...let me rephrase it....burst = one action sequence. You cannot photograph one action sequence 3 times and merge the best images from all of them. |
Sorry Judi I must have missed something. Looks like I need to do bit more reading?
I was under the impression that we could select and discard images from the set up but were only allowed a maximum of ten.
So there goes another one, I need to pull my already entered submission.
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01/05/2008 03:48:11 AM · #80 |
| Well I can tell you mine is not a "Burst", a version was supplied to the SC who rejected it, but not because it was not a "Burst". Having modified it to suit the SC comments I got, it should be OK. Not sure where this idea a a "Burst" comes from anyway? As far as I can see the rules state "up to 10 shots ....... You may combine up to ten captures of the same basic scene" |
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01/05/2008 04:21:16 AM · #81 |
Originally posted by dougi555:
Well I can tell you mine is not a "Burst", a version was supplied to the SC who rejected it, but not because it was not a "Burst". Having modified it to suit the SC comments I got, it should be OK. Not sure where this idea a a "Burst" comes from anyway? As far as I can see the rules state "up to 10 shots ....... You may combine up to ten captures of the same basic scene" |
"you may combine up to ten captures of the same basic scene" ..
but not taken at different times .. it has to show time lapse .. ?? .
i'm still at a loss as to why mine doesnt fit the challenge .. :)
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01/05/2008 04:26:56 AM · #82 |
Originally posted by keegbow:
Originally posted by Judi:
Originally posted by briantammy:
Originally posted by Judi:
Originally posted by SaraR:
So I take it something like this skateboarding composition wouldn't be allowed? Nor this day-long one, as it would fall foul of the internal borders/frames rule? What about this?
But, I take it, this lightning image would be allowed?
Very confused.... |
All but the day long should be okay according to what has been stated in this thread. That is....if they were all shot in one burst only. And not merged from 3 reruns of the same action/scene. |
I didn't think burst shooting was a requirment as it would take quite of few shots to do a moon rise sequence. |
Okay...let me rephrase it....burst = one action sequence. You cannot photograph one action sequence 3 times and merge the best images from all of them. |
Sorry Judi I must have missed something. Looks like I need to do bit more reading?
I was under the impression that we could select and discard images from the set up but were only allowed a maximum of ten.
So there goes another one, I need to pull my already entered submission. |
The way I understand it is you can't mix and match photos from multiple shooting sessions. For example, say your subject is running and you get off 10 shots (it doesn't have to be in burst mode). Afterwards you noticed some of the photos are blurry and you don't want that so you ask your subject to go run again and you reshoot it. Now you have two sets of photos one from the first action sequence and another set from the second action sequence. What you can't do here is pick out the best photos from both sets. You have to first pick which set you are going to use and then within that set choose how many photos within that set to go with.
Message edited by author 2008-01-05 04:27:31.
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01/05/2008 04:53:51 AM · #83 |
Originally posted by yanko:
The way I understand it is you can't mix and match photos from multiple shooting sessions. For example, say your subject is running and you get off 10 shots (it doesn't have to be in burst mode). Afterwards you noticed some of the photos are blurry and you don't want that so you ask your subject to go run again and you reshoot it. Now you have two sets of photos one from the first action sequence and another set from the second action sequence. What you can't do here is pick out the best photos from both sets. You have to first pick which set you are going to use and then within that set choose how many photos within that set to go with. |
then why would the site council have said mine would get a dq ??
it is all one sequence .. shot one after the other ... :)
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01/05/2008 07:04:13 AM · #84 |
Originally posted by roz:
Originally posted by dougi555:
Well I can tell you mine is not a "Burst", a version was supplied to the SC who rejected it, but not because it was not a "Burst". Having modified it to suit the SC comments I got, it should be OK. Not sure where this idea a a "Burst" comes from anyway? As far as I can see the rules state "up to 10 shots ....... You may combine up to ten captures of the same basic scene" |
"you may combine up to ten captures of the same basic scene" ..
but not taken at different times .. it has to show time lapse .. ?? .
i'm still at a loss as to why mine doesnt fit the challenge .. :) |
All the rules say is " it must use captures shot within the challenge dates"..... It doesn't say anything about shot at the same time as far as i can see. That would be a direct contradiction of time lapse....! Hell, i'd just go with whatever ideas you have, it's a trial set of rules after all.........
Message edited by author 2008-01-05 07:04:53. |
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01/05/2008 07:07:44 AM · #85 |
Originally posted by roz:
then why would the site council have said mine would get a dq ??
it is all one sequence .. shot one after the other ... :) |
Your figures are arranged within the frame in an unnatural way. It's as simple as that. He cannot be hitting the ball he is shown teeing up. This is not time lapse photography, it's a composite image.
R.
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01/05/2008 07:59:21 AM · #86 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by roz:
then why would the site council have said mine would get a dq ??
it is all one sequence .. shot one after the other ... :) |
Your figures are arranged within the frame in an unnatural way. It's as simple as that. He cannot be hitting the ball he is shown teeing up. This is not time lapse photography, it's a composite image.
R. |
i dont know why it's unnatural .. he moved into the 'frame' with the golf club held horizontally .. he then bent over .. i dont know why he bent over there because it wasnt exactly where he teed off .. he then moved to where he hit the ball .. then he hit the ball ..
i didnt get every single movement he made from entering the frame to when he hit the ball .. and of course ppl will select which frames to include in the image .. its not a movie after all ..
& as far as i understand it from the rules of this challenge its going to be a composite image anyway .. ?? .. :)
edit to say .. i just asked tim about this shot and he told me that he does pretty much the same thing whenever he tees off .. he walked into the frame with his club held in that position to line up his shot and to get his grip right .. he bent over to get a bit'v grass to test the wind and then walked to where he hit the ball .. which he'd put on the tee before the sequence i shot ..
as far as i'm concerned its time lapse photography ..
Message edited by author 2008-01-05 09:08:16.
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01/05/2008 08:29:52 AM · #87 |
Originally posted by roz:
edit to say .. i just asked tim about this shot and he has told me that he walked into the frame with his club held in that position to line up his shot and to get his grip right .. he bent over to get a bit'v grass to test the wind and then walked to where he hit the ball ..
as far as i'm concerned its time lapse photography .. |
Roz, I was going to say that it looks like he is picking up some grass to test the wind in a earlier post but thought better of it.
Everything I see here is a natural progression/motion of a golfer preparing to tee off.
But apparently we need to show "one motion" which is utterly ridiculous in most sporting events especially golf where the golf swing has been recognized by many medical professionals as an unnatural action of the human body.
What I think SC are saying regarding your image is that you can not have someone walk/run/move in one direction take a shot (picture) then move in another, take a shot and say it is one motion. This to me is a very arbitrary way to DQ an image.
They should either allow multi-exposure and all of it̢۪s capabilities or not allow it at all. The line in the sand is far to hard to interpret with the current rule set and if they do allow a full multi- exposure image it should not be in advanced editing but in a new expert editing rule set.
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01/05/2008 08:34:00 AM · #88 |
Originally posted by keegbow:
Originally posted by roz:
edit to say .. i just asked tim about this shot and he has told me that he walked into the frame with his club held in that position to line up his shot and to get his grip right .. he bent over to get a bit'v grass to test the wind and then walked to where he hit the ball ..
as far as i'm concerned its time lapse photography .. |
Roz, I was going to say that it looks like he is picking up some grass to test the wind in a earlier post but thought better of it.
Everything I see here is a natural progression/motion of a golfer preparing to tee off.
But apparently we need to show "one motion" which is utterly ridiculous in most sporting events especially golf where the golf swing has been recognized by many medical professionals as an unnatural action of the human body.
What I think SC are saying regarding your image is that you can not have someone walk/run/move in one direction take a shot (picture) then move in another, take a shot and say it is one motion. This to me is a very arbitrary way to DQ an image.
They should either allow multi-exposure and all of it̢۪s capabilities or not allow it at all. The line in the sand is far to hard to interpret with the current rule set and if they do allow a full multi- exposure image it should not be in advanced editing but in a new expert editing rule set. |
HEAR HEAR !!!!!!
or is it HERE HERE !!!!!??
or maybe HEAR HERE .. wotever .. i'm sure you'll understand .. :)
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01/05/2008 08:59:04 AM · #89 |
Originally posted by roz:
HEAR HEAR !!!!!!
or is it HERE HERE !!!!!??
or maybe HEAR HERE .. wotever .. i'm sure you'll understand .. :) |
It's "Hear Hear" derived from "hear him" |
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01/05/2008 09:25:26 AM · #90 |
Originally posted by keegbow:
What I think SC are saying regarding your image is that you can not have someone walk/run/move in one direction take a shot (picture) then move in another, take a shot and say it is one motion. This to me is a very arbitrary way to DQ an image.
They should either allow multi-exposure and all of it̢۪s capabilities or not allow it at all. The line in the sand is far to hard to interpret with the current rule set and if they do allow a full multi- exposure image it should not be in advanced editing but in a new expert editing rule set. |
i will agree ...
this rule is poorly thought out
SC: ..please fix..
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01/05/2008 11:18:38 AM · #91 |
From several posts back, because it seems to have been overlooked
Originally posted by karmat:
Keep in mind that this was set up as a trial, to find the "problems" (and yes, we see them too).
Be patient.
Also, keep in mind that this is just one newly allowed facet of the new rules.
I'm just glad it was the first one dealt with so we can see what needs to be fixed and what needs to be scrapped. |
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01/05/2008 11:58:49 AM · #92 |
I am now more confused than ever! I tried a test shoot:
[thumb]629299[/thumb]
Forgetting quality and composition etc, would this kind of an image be legal? If you can't tell what it is, it's a hawaiian hula girl wobbly thing. I set a fast shutter speed, wobbled her, burst 5 frames (flash on first). Because I only chose 3 from the burst of 5 presumably this makes this illegal. Had I used all 5 would it have made it okay?
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01/05/2008 12:23:44 PM · #93 |
My ywo cents. This is all interpetation. In roz is photo you could easily say that the tee is the subject and is shot through time lapse over the day. The golfer is just interacting with the tee through a specified time.
If I take a picture of an escaltor with people coming down throughtout the day then that is time lapse.
Really, if people are going to get particualar about the particualr details of the challenge then it is a stupid challenge topic. |
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01/05/2008 12:31:40 PM · #94 |
Originally posted by roz:
i dont know why it's unnatural .. he moved into the 'frame' with the golf club held horizontally .. he then bent over .. i dont know why he bent over there because it wasnt exactly where he teed off .. he then moved to where he hit the ball .. then he hit the ball ..
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Okay, that's the confusion; looks like he is teeing the ball up, so it looks staged. He's actually plucking grass for wind-testing...
R.
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01/05/2008 01:26:17 PM · #95 |
Originally posted by fastforward:
Because I only chose 3 from the burst of 5 presumably this makes this illegal. Had I used all 5 would it have made it okay? |
This thread should be locked (then run over by something and set on fire). Same questions over and over that have already been answered and nothing but the perpetuation of disinformation.
Why not one summary post from SC
"We can't clearly define what 'time lapse means', we've said all we have to say on the matter. If you can't figure it out from the four thousand posts below, don't enter. If you do enter, we're going to take it easy on DQs since no one can understand what we are talking about." |
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01/05/2008 01:31:36 PM · #96 |
Originally posted by roz:
i dont know why it's unnatural .. he moved into the 'frame' with the golf club held horizontally .. he then bent over .. i dont know why he bent over there because it wasnt exactly where he teed off .. he then moved to where he hit the ball .. then he hit the ball ..
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As I see it, you are not describing a "natural motion" but a series of separate motions.
"First he ... then he ... then he ..." -- you yourself describe it as more than one motion or activity. To me that makes it a composite, no different than if you'd taken photos of different golfers to illustrate the various steps involved in preparing for and then executing a golf shot. A shot of a golf swing at various stages would show a single motion. |
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01/05/2008 02:49:08 PM · #97 |
Originally posted by routerguy666:
This thread should be locked (then run over by something and set on fire). Same questions over and over that have already been answered and nothing but the perpetuation of disinformation. |
Clearly there are a lot of people who aren't clear on this. I don't see what's wrong with having a thread of people trying work it out - don't read the thread otherwise.
If the only difference between the long jumper (legal) and golfer (not legal) is the unnatural 'teeing up' frame, who is to say when the natural motion starts and finishes? For me it creates too subjective a decision for the SC, or any other DPC member spending time trying to put together a submission - and I'm confused. I've read the thread and the original thread and it's hard to work out what I can do from what I can't. I guess we'll all learn what DPC Time Lapse is after the challenge voting has finished.
I'm betting that of the 20-something submissions that are okayed, most of them are either time slices of a sunrise->sunset over a city or landscape, with a few long exposure astros. Everything else seems like such a grey area for the time being. |
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01/05/2008 02:56:41 PM · #98 |
Bah ... I just came back from my father-in-laws after shooting him working in his workshop in three different locations. I thought that would be as good as a hop a skip and a jump ...
Then I read this thread and see that it is not valid ... BLEH!
Originally posted by karmat:
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Keep in mind that this was set up as a trial, to find the "problems" (and yes, we see them too).
Be patient.
Also, keep in mind that this is just one newly allowed facet of the new rules.
I'm just glad it was the first one dealt with so we can see what needs to be fixed and what needs to be scrapped.
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Well ... I don't thing the problem is the New (trial) Advanced Editing ruleset as much as the ambiguous Challenge Details for the Time Lapse Challenge that is the problem most are having.
At this point I still am not sure whether a burst of shots of someone doing a one and a half somersault with a full twist off a diving board would be considered a "continuous single scene" or a "series of separate motions". I give up on this particular challenge.
me
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01/05/2008 03:13:18 PM · #99 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
As I see it, you are not describing a "natural motion" but a series of separate motions.
"First he ... then he ... then he ..." -- you yourself describe it as more than one motion or activity. To me that makes it a composite, no different than if you'd taken photos of different golfers to illustrate the various steps involved in preparing for and then executing a golf shot. A shot of a golf swing at various stages would show a single motion. |
the rules don't say a natural motion. They say "natural subject motion." When you use "motion" without an article, the meaning can include multiple separate motions. The trick here is "natural." I am impressed that SC is willing to tackle the interpretation of "natural," since it is a term that has been debated and redefined through the centuries. There is the Enlightenment idea of "natural", which is about humanity acting in rational ways reflecting Divine order. Then there is the Romantic idea of "natural," which moves it away from the human (thus Wordsworth's sense of longing in his early poetry, he feels separated from nature). I think the real reason the golfer would be DQ'd is because you think his motions represent an individual will that is somehow separate from "nature." A single golf swing approaches the Enlightenment idea of natural, where individual will seems to be acting according to a divine order, creating an almost perfect circle of swing, utilizing Newtonian physics to amplify the workings of his will.
Yes, I am quite simply amazed that the SC is willing to engage in a philosophical discussion over each DQ request. Perhaps you could tell us which philosophers, philosophies and/or religions are guiding you, or will each SC take up the cause of a different philosophy and battle it out on a picture by picture basis? Karmat could champion karmic balance as part of the "natural order." Scalvert could argue that only motions that illustrate Newtonian physics could be considered "natural," while ursula could argue that beauty is inherently natural. some of the younger male sc's might champion primal desire as natural, thus defending the sandwich-eating photos. I'd love to be a fly on the wall of SC HQ! |
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01/05/2008 03:21:21 PM · #100 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Yes, I am quite simply amazed that the SC is willing to engage in a philosophical discussion over each DQ request. Perhaps you could tell us which philosophers, philosophies and/or religions are guiding you, or will each SC take up the cause of a different philosophy and battle it out on a picture by picture basis? Karmat could champion karmic balance as part of the "natural order." Scalvert could argue that only motions that illustrate Newtonian physics could be considered "natural," while ursula could argue that beauty is inherently natural. some of the younger male sc's might champion primal desire as natural, thus defending the sandwich-eating photos. I'd love to be a fly on the wall of SC HQ! |
This is beautiful! Has my vote for the most "enlightened" post in the history of DPC :-)
R.
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