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12/10/2007 03:49:51 PM · #1126 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Nothing "ballsy" about it. Just emperical fact. On any Sunday, attending Mass, how many pew sitters have a copy of the Bible they brought from home? Nearly none. How many read scripture daily? Hopw many baptized and confirmed catholics have ever read the entire New Testament, studied it intensely, etc? How many attended Catechism beyond gradeschool? I don't know any Catholics that can quote chapter/verse, however I'm certain there are some. Perhaps even many. I am not convinced that because you can, that all can. |
It ain't just the Catholics, though. Aside from some fundamentalist Christian churches, I doubt you can find ANY Christian denomination where anything close to a majority of Sunday go-to-meeting folks as studied the Bible in this manner.
There was a time, in the USA, when studying the Bible was required of all citizens, basically (think back to the days of the Pilgrims and for a while subsequently) but those days are long past.
Don't just single out the Catholics here. By and large, Christianity has been hugely secularized in American society.
R.
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12/10/2007 03:56:40 PM · #1127 |
Originally posted by Flash:
I can have a reasonably accurate reading of Socrates from Plato and Aristotle. |
From the little study I've done over the years on Greek philosophy I think rather the opposite is true. It's just about impossible to tell where Socrates ends and Plato begins in terms of opinion. Comparing Plato's record with the Socrates of other authors also leads to a maze of contradictions and fictional accounts for effect. Which is all perfectly reasonable ,unless you expect be reading Socrates actual words, translated in to English via those subsequent authors.
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12/10/2007 04:09:01 PM · #1128 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Flash:
Nothing "ballsy" about it. Just emperical fact. On any Sunday, attending Mass, how many pew sitters have a copy of the Bible they brought from home? Nearly none. How many read scripture daily? Hopw many baptized and confirmed catholics have ever read the entire New Testament, studied it intensely, etc? How many attended Catechism beyond gradeschool? I don't know any Catholics that can quote chapter/verse, however I'm certain there are some. Perhaps even many. I am not convinced that because you can, that all can. |
It ain't just the Catholics, though. Aside from some fundamentalist Christian churches, I doubt you can find ANY Christian denomination where anything close to a majority of Sunday go-to-meeting folks as studied the Bible in this manner.
There was a time, in the USA, when studying the Bible was required of all citizens, basically (think back to the days of the Pilgrims and for a while subsequently) but those days are long past.
Don't just single out the Catholics here. By and large, Christianity has been hugely secularized in American society.
R. |
On this we agree. I just happen to be more familiar with some than others. Attending Mass is much different than attending a service with say Southern Baptists, or Church of Christ worshippers, or...
I am the odd man out when I show up to Mass with my NIV in hand - on the rare occassion it occurs. This thread has me thinking more about my shortcomings and my needs to improve my efforts.
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12/10/2007 04:13:47 PM · #1129 |
Originally posted by Flash:
You do give me hope though. Anyone who was a porochial student for years, considered seminary, and now thinks they are an atheist, well, you are really just like a million other former Catholics that chose to not participate anymore, until one day when you re-discover a need for it. |
Don't hold your breath. Urrghh.. this really P's me off. Way to trivialize my particular life's journey. :-/ |
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12/10/2007 04:14:41 PM · #1130 |
| I am sooo tempted to use this thread as a background for this week's entry -- I just can't decide between entering it in Heaven or Hell ... ;-) |
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12/10/2007 04:20:36 PM · #1131 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
I am sooo tempted to use this thread as a background for this week's entry -- I just can't decide between entering it in Heaven or Hell ... ;-) |
c'est les autres
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12/10/2007 05:05:33 PM · #1132 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Flash:
I do not believe that those ministers/preists or any other predator of children is a true believer. My reason for stating so is this. If one understands the nature of a divine judge, with a consequence for violating its laws, then for one to actively and repeatedly violate the laws of that divine judge, then that person either does not truly believe there is a divine judge or they don't understand. Neither is an acceptable defense. |
(I do not wish to discuss whether or not those ministers' actions are indicative of true belief. They may not be, but their choice of profession certainly is.) |
Yes, and here in Pennsylvania, the profession covers its own tail, and has for decades, so by your definition Flash, the majority of the Catholic archdiocese is immoral unbelievers.
Once again, morals and judgement take one group to a higher level.....oh, and BTW, the majority of the issues of morals violations here were of a homosexual nature, but not only....
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12/10/2007 05:53:34 PM · #1133 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by Flash:
You do give me hope though. Anyone who was a porochial student for years, considered seminary, and now thinks they are an atheist, well, you are really just like a million other former Catholics that chose to not participate anymore, until one day when you re-discover a need for it. |
Don't hold your breath. Urrghh.. this really P's me off. Way to trivialize my particular life's journey. :-/ |
You're upset because someone "trivialized" your life's journey? I would think that demeaning someone's life journey would be much worse than that and yet that's what you've done here:
Originally posted by Louis:
.......and very nearly entered the seminary immediately before waking up and becoming atheist. |
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12/10/2007 05:56:41 PM · #1134 |
Originally posted by Phil:
You're upset because someone "trivialized" your life's journey? I would think that demeaning someone's life journey would be much worse than that and yet that's what you've done here:
Originally posted by Louis:
.......and very nearly entered the seminary immediately before waking up and becoming atheist. |
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I think he gets a pass in the second case, given that it was his own life he was describing, no ?
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12/10/2007 06:14:52 PM · #1135 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by Phil:
You're upset because someone "trivialized" your life's journey? I would think that demeaning someone's life journey would be much worse than that and yet that's what you've done here:
Originally posted by Louis:
.......and very nearly entered the seminary immediately before waking up and becoming atheist. |
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I think he gets a pass in the second case, given that it was his own life he was describing, no ? |
I don't think so. If the quote was - "and very nearly entered the seminary immediately before becoming atheist" then there wouldn't even be need for a rebuttal, let alone a pass. When someone calls it "waking up" he is doing nothing more than deliberately insulting those who believe. |
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12/10/2007 06:39:53 PM · #1136 |
Originally posted by Phil:
I don't think so. If the quote was - "and very nearly entered the seminary immediately before becoming atheist" then there wouldn't even be need for a rebuttal, let alone a pass. When someone calls it "waking up" he is doing nothing more than deliberately insulting those who believe. |
So if someone woke up, repented their sins and devoted their life to Christ, they'd be deliberately insulting atheists ?
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12/10/2007 07:20:50 PM · #1137 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Nothing "ballsy" about it. Just emperical fact. |
Oh the irony that now you start relying on empiricism. ;-)
Originally posted by Flash:
Hopw many baptized and confirmed catholics have ever read the entire New Testament, studied it intensely, etc? ...I have similar criticisms of Jehovah's Witnesses ... I'll say a few words for you... Even if you become a Luthern. ;-) |
It is so bizarre that you adopt such an uncompromising stance against other adherents of the same religion.
Are you aware that protestantism as a whole has its roots in Martin Luther's 95 theses (as in Lutheran)?
Are you aware that protestantism is a lightly reformed version of catholicism?
Are you aware that JWs are themselves reacting against the vagaries of mainstream christianity, looking for even greater truth in an ever closer reading of the bible than the one that you choose?
I suspect that the issues relate to racial and social prejudice, rather than genuine religious difference.
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12/10/2007 07:26:28 PM · #1138 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by Phil:
I don't think so. If the quote was - "and very nearly entered the seminary immediately before becoming atheist" then there wouldn't even be need for a rebuttal, let alone a pass. When someone calls it "waking up" he is doing nothing more than deliberately insulting those who believe. |
So if someone woke up, repented their sins and devoted their life to Christ, they'd be deliberately insulting atheists ? |
If someone said, "I was like you but I woke up" right after they just said, "You just jabbed at me with your words and trivialized my life", isn't that being a bit hypocritical no matter what side of the fence you're on? Not even hypocritical in a spiritual way but on a human level?
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12/10/2007 07:35:44 PM · #1139 |
Originally posted by Phil:
If someone said, "I was like you but I woke up" |
Yup, if someone said that, you'd have a point.
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12/10/2007 08:03:10 PM · #1140 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by Flash:
You do give me hope though. Anyone who was a porochial student for years, considered seminary, and now thinks they are an atheist, well, you are really just like a million other former Catholics that chose to not participate anymore, until one day when you re-discover a need for it. |
Don't hold your breath. Urrghh.. this really P's me off. Way to trivialize my particular life's journey. :-/ |
To be fair, hasn't his life's journey also been trivalized in this thread? It seems unavoidable to me given this type of discussion.
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12/10/2007 08:11:58 PM · #1141 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by Flash:
You do give me hope though. Anyone who was a porochial student for years, considered seminary, and now thinks they are an atheist, well, you are really just like a million other former Catholics that chose to not participate anymore, until one day when you re-discover a need for it. |
Don't hold your breath. Urrghh.. this really P's me off. Way to trivialize my particular life's journey. :-/ |
To be fair, hasn't his life's journey also been trivalized in this thread? It seems unavoidable to me given this type of discussion. |
I'm not so sure his life's journey has been trivialized, so much as his (previous) obstinate refusal to support claims with actual facts (as in the case of the Goliath stuff). I personally don't hold any ill will toward him or anyone for whatever's said here, for what does it ultimately matter? I know the same is true of him. Like Gordon pointed out with that Stephen Frye link, opposing someone's position says nothing about how you feel about the individual. |
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12/10/2007 08:14:38 PM · #1142 |
| Wow, four active Rants... awesome. And this one's so long it takes a second to load. Cool. :-P |
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12/10/2007 08:56:57 PM · #1143 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by Phil:
If someone said, "I was like you but I woke up" |
Yup, if someone said that, you'd have a point. |
I shouldn't have responded to this then:
Originally posted by Gordon:
So if someone woke up, repented their sins and devoted their life to Christ, they'd be deliberately insulting atheists ? |
Since no one actually said it then I guess you didn't have a point? |
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12/10/2007 09:10:23 PM · #1144 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by Flash:
You do give me hope though. Anyone who was a porochial student for years, considered seminary, and now thinks they are an atheist, well, you are really just like a million other former Catholics that chose to not participate anymore, until one day when you re-discover a need for it. |
Don't hold your breath. Urrghh.. this really P's me off. Way to trivialize my particular life's journey. :-/ |
To be fair, hasn't his life's journey also been trivalized in this thread? It seems unavoidable to me given this type of discussion. |
I'm not so sure his life's journey has been trivialized, so much as his (previous) obstinate refusal to support claims with actual facts (as in the case of the Goliath stuff). I personally don't hold any ill will toward him or anyone for whatever's said here, for what does it ultimately matter? I know the same is true of him. Like Gordon pointed out with that Stephen Frye link, opposing someone's position says nothing about how you feel about the individual. |
Perhaps I misunderstood. When you said "Urrghh.. this really P's me off. Way to trivialize my particular life's journey", what did you really mean by it? I took it as sarcasm and a bit of a put down towards the opposite, that is his life's journey or at the least his kind of journey.
Message edited by author 2007-12-10 21:12:22.
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12/10/2007 09:15:24 PM · #1145 |
Originally posted by Phil:
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by Phil:
If someone said, "I was like you but I woke up" |
Yup, if someone said that, you'd have a point. |
I shouldn't have responded to this then:
Originally posted by Gordon:
So if someone woke up, repented their sins and devoted their life to Christ, they'd be deliberately insulting atheists ? |
Since no one actually said it then I guess you didn't have a point? |
Yup, I was just making up arbitrary comparisons, too. |
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12/10/2007 10:19:42 PM · #1146 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Perhaps I misunderstood. When you said "Urrghh.. this really P's me off. Way to trivialize my particular life's journey", what did you really mean by it? I took it as sarcasm and a bit of a put down towards the opposite, that is his life's journey or at the least his kind of journey. |
Oh. No, I meant it as written. I was momentarily put off by Flash's suggestion that someone would go fleeing back to god-belief out of moral laziness. |
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12/10/2007 10:27:03 PM · #1147 |
With all that's been discussed here, some might be interested in the political compass, and where they are positioned on it. Here's me, a libertarian commie pinko.
edit: fixed link to main site
Message edited by author 2007-12-11 00:44:55. |
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12/10/2007 10:49:27 PM · #1148 |
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12/10/2007 10:58:40 PM · #1149 |
Originally posted by Louis:
With all that's been discussed here, some might be interested in the political compass, and where they are positioned on it. Here's me, a libertarian commie pinko. |
I can't imagine what you answered for this one:
You cannot be moral without being religious.
:P
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12/10/2007 10:59:25 PM · #1150 |
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