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11/10/2007 11:50:16 PM · #176 |
Originally posted by MikeJ:
One thing I've seen in the 2 years I've been on DPC, minor changes move at glacial speed and big changes even slower. :D
Mike |
If you've only been here two years then you haven't even experienced "glacial speed" yet ... ;-) |
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11/10/2007 11:51:55 PM · #177 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by MikeJ:
One thing I've seen in the 2 years I've been on DPC, minor changes move at glacial speed and big changes even slower. :D
Mike |
If you've only been here two years then you haven't even experienced "glacial speed" yet ... ;-) |
Well, with global warming, glacial speed might not be so slow, you know :) |
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11/10/2007 11:56:45 PM · #178 |
Originally posted by ursula:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by MikeJ:
One thing I've seen in the 2 years I've been on DPC, minor changes move at glacial speed and big changes even slower. :D
Mike |
If you've only been here two years then you haven't even experienced "glacial speed" yet ... ;-) |
Well, with global warming, glacial speed might not be so slow, you know :) |
Unfortunately, as the term is usually used, it seems to be running in reverse. |
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11/10/2007 11:57:37 PM · #179 |
Originally posted by jonejess:
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
As an experiment, try commenting on the photographs in just one challenge per week for about 4-6 weeks. See if it changes the way you approach your own work.
~Terry |
Better define your terms and I'm all for it. You're assuming that writing my comments for all to view will make me take better pictures? Or, are you assuming that writing my comments for all to view will make me more tolerant and less critical?
Your assumption seems to be that if I am not taking sufficient time or energy before voting on, or commenting on, an image. I often spend a great deal of time on viewing an image (or a challenge) and decide that no vote or comment is the "appropriate" response. |
I'm not questioning that you think the process through. What I am suggesting is that for most people, there is learning that happens when one force him/herself to commit thoughts to writing, that isn't present when one just think them through in one's head. The process will better enable you to "critique the viewfinder," as I like to call it, and better think through and your own compositions before you even press the shutter.
~Terry
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11/11/2007 12:42:59 AM · #180 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Has anyone looked for correlations between the decline in vote totals and:
... the running of the DPL season and subsequent hiatus?
... the recent proliferation of "Side Challenges," which have enjoyed a remarkable level of participation? |
And if there is one what are you suggesting?
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11/11/2007 01:12:36 AM · #181 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Has anyone looked for correlations between the decline in vote totals and:
... the running of the DPL season and subsequent hiatus?
... the recent proliferation of "Side Challenges," which have enjoyed a remarkable level of participation? |
The graphs  kirbic posted show no correlation with DPL. I don't know the timing of the side challenges, but it appears to be more closely correlated with the start of Exclusive Open challenges than anything else -- though it might have even started slightly before that.
~Terry
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11/11/2007 01:51:58 AM · #182 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by MikeJ:
One thing I've seen in the 2 years I've been on DPC, minor changes move at glacial speed and big changes even slower. :D
Mike |
If you've only been here two years then you haven't even experienced "glacial speed" yet ... ;-) |
You mean there's another speed?! That's reverse, right?
LOL!
Mike
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11/11/2007 09:21:02 AM · #183 |
I recently voted on all the images in the popcorn challenge.
There were some great images. There were some bad images where it looked like people had put some effort in to trying to take a good image.
Then there was a huge pile that appeared to be 'oh look, popcorn - snap'
If there's a general feel that the quality of entries need to be improved (and I'm not categorically saying that's true, but if) then I think starting with those might be a good place.
So is it true that everyone entering is trying to enter the best photograph that they can make ?
Or are they just trying to 'meet the challenge' with the idea that the challenge is about the theme, not taking a good and interesting picture ?
Message edited by author 2007-11-11 09:21:25. |
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11/11/2007 09:35:27 AM · #184 |
Originally posted by Gordon[/quote:
So is it true that everyone entering is trying to enter the best photograph that they can make ?
Or are they just trying to 'meet the challenge' with the idea that the challenge is about the theme, not taking a good and interesting picture ? |
I think there's a tendency among many new users to fall into what I call a scavenger hunt syndrome. Most eventually outgrow that, but some don't. I'm not sure what the solution to that is, maybe it falls into the welcoming committee idea I mentioned yesterday, where someone needs to say, "okay, you've gotten the meeting the challenge down and that's great, but now you need to go beyond that and start to work on building the challenge topic into photographs that are interesting on their own," and point them to tools that might help them do that.
~Terry
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11/11/2007 09:43:06 AM · #185 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
I recently voted on all the images in the popcorn challenge.
There were some great images. There were some bad images where it looked like people had put some effort in to trying to take a good image.
Then there was a huge pile that appeared to be 'oh look, popcorn - snap'
If there's a general feel that the quality of entries need to be improved (and I'm not categorically saying that's true, but if) then I think starting with those might be a good place.
So is it true that everyone entering is trying to enter the best photograph that they can make ?
Or are they just trying to 'meet the challenge' with the idea that the challenge is about the theme, not taking a good and interesting picture ? |
I'm guessing (hopefully not too far off base) that your post is geared toward the reasoning that some people may not be voting as much anymore because they're turned off by the quality of images?
This could be an interesting adventure for those that are statistically driven...what is the general profile of DPC'rs that submitted to the Popcorn challenge that Gordon just mentioned? Are the bulk of entries made by those with less than 10 challenges or less than 90 days on the site? Have the "veterans" or more experienced members taken a step back - waiting for more interesting topics or preferring to showcase one image a month in Free Studies?
I ask the above questions to provoke thought about who IS participating currently. More and more people sitting on the sidelines would reduce voting numbers overall.
As for quality of images and getting something in just to be in the challenge is not unheard of with the enthusiasm of first discovering DPChallenge. I know I held that thought for a long time - hard to tell I don't yet with some of the stuff I still submit. :-P
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11/11/2007 11:27:15 AM · #186 |
Originally posted by Rebecca:
. . .
One quick, easy thing to do right off the bat, no research necessary, is to send sweet little "we miss you" letters to anyone who hasn't logged into the site at all for some specified length of time, like two months or whatever. Consider including a brief survey there, too, asking why they left. Radio buttons are your friends. . . . |
On a slight tangent perhaps - but I think this is a very good idea and might encourage a number of marginal people to not only stay on, but to participate as well. |
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11/11/2007 12:08:30 PM · #187 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
So is it true that everyone entering is trying to enter the best photograph that they can make ?
Or are they just trying to 'meet the challenge' with the idea that the challenge is about the theme, not taking a good and interesting picture ? |
I know that for myself both of these were my goals when I first started entering challenges here. I was not very creative and I my skills were weak. I feel like I am improving but I honestly tried and got scores below five. I think most people are doing their best in spite of how it may look. If you can take great shots and have been for a while maybe it is too hard to put yourself back there when just coming up with a challenge idea was a big step forward. |
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11/11/2007 12:25:20 PM · #188 |
"I'm guessing (hopefully not too far off base) that your post is geared toward the reasoning that some people may not be voting as much anymore because they're turned off by the quality of images? "
I don't know whether I see things differently to others here, but I don't actually expect all the entries on each challenge to be great.
This is partly because many people are on a growth curve, partly because of mixed ability, and partly because of personal taste.
Surely by common sense for every truly great picture that pops up on this site there will be a heck of a lot that are not great? You are always going to have a pyramid with a lot of pictures propping up a few. Heck if every photographer got 100% better overnight you would still have better and worse photo's tomorrow !
If people get fed up voting because not every shot makes them sit back and say 'Wow' it's just possible they need to reset their expectations. Instead of being gloomy over the lesser shots - delight in the great ones you find.
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11/11/2007 12:57:16 PM · #189 |
| its nice to find so much talk on this subject as far as i see it this thread has showed a big change here as far as i'm concerned because there is so much talk about learning photography vs photoshop from when i first started hanging around here! as far as the voting goes i think it might help more if a way could be cut the number of entries down so a voter doesn't have to sit for 2 hrs to get thru---and also to try to group people of different skill levels together? |
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11/11/2007 01:23:28 PM · #190 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
I recently voted on all the images in the popcorn challenge.
There were some great images. There were some bad images where it looked like people had put some effort in to trying to take a good image.
Then there was a huge pile that appeared to be 'oh look, popcorn - snap'
If there's a general feel that the quality of entries need to be improved (and I'm not categorically saying that's true, but if) then I think starting with those might be a good place.
So is it true that everyone entering is trying to enter the best photograph that they can make ?
Or are they just trying to 'meet the challenge' with the idea that the challenge is about the theme, not taking a good and interesting picture ? |
After voting on the popcorn challenge, I agree.
I also think many people take a "scavenger hunt" approach to the challenges. I also think there are too many of those sorts of images and too little is done to discourage them and to encourage thinking beyond the "Oh look, popcorn... Honey! Where's the camera?" approach.
Maybe a tutorial on visual problem solving or conceptualization would help. I dunno.
From my perspective, if a shot looks like it took longer to expose than it did to conceptualize, I'm going to put in the same effort in voting.
Message edited by author 2007-11-11 13:25:15. |
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11/11/2007 01:33:03 PM · #191 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
From my perspective, if a shot looks like it took longer to expose than it did to conceptualize, I'm going to put in the same effort in voting. |
I think the rules allow you to vote in accordance with your personal evaluation of the photo's topical and technical qualities, but not to adjust your voting crieria or "effort" from picture to picture. If you can't offer a fair vote and perhaps a constructively critical comment then perhaps you should just skip it. |
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11/11/2007 01:37:06 PM · #192 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
From my perspective, if a shot looks like it took longer to expose than it did to conceptualize, I'm going to put in the same effort in voting. |
I think the rules allow you to vote in accordance with your personal evaluation of the photo's topical and technical qualities, but not to adjust your voting crieria or "effort" from picture to picture. If you can't offer a fair vote and perhaps a constructively critical comment then perhaps you should just skip it. |
I was under the impression that getting members to NOT skip voting is what this thread is about.
The topical and technical qualities correlate well with the degree of effort. When people put more effort into creating their photographs, it generally shows in the quality of the resulting image. More and more, a larger and larger percentage of entries seem to reflect little or no effort on the part of the photographer.
And skipping is exactly what I mean by putting in the same effort. Popcorn is the first challenge I have voted on in some time simply because I got tired of slogging through shots submitted by scavenger hunters in order to get to the few gems in the bunch.
Message edited by author 2007-11-11 13:44:54. |
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11/11/2007 01:42:18 PM · #193 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
From my perspective, if a shot looks like it took longer to expose than it did to conceptualize, I'm going to put in the same effort in voting. |
I think the rules allow you to vote in accordance with your personal evaluation of the photo's topical and technical qualities, but not to adjust your voting crieria or "effort" from picture to picture. If you can't offer a fair vote and perhaps a constructively critical comment then perhaps you should just skip it. |
The topical and technical qualities correlate well with the degree of effort. When people put more effort into creating their photographs, it generally shows in the quality of the resulting image. |
... and the ensuing scores generated.
Ray |
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11/11/2007 01:48:04 PM · #194 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
From my perspective, if a shot looks like it took longer to expose than it did to conceptualize, I'm going to put in the same effort in voting. |
I think the rules allow you to vote in accordance with your personal evaluation of the photo's topical and technical qualities, but not to adjust your voting crieria or "effort" from picture to picture. If you can't offer a fair vote and perhaps a constructively critical comment then perhaps you should just skip it. |
The topical and technical qualities correlate well with the degree of effort. When people put more effort into creating their photographs, it generally shows in the quality of the resulting image. |
... and the ensuing scores generated.
Ray |
Yes, I believe the cream does, generally, rise to the top. It's slogging through the manure to get to the dairy that turns me off. |
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11/11/2007 05:54:08 PM · #195 |
I've read this thread (yes, all of it). I posted a thread along these lines awhile back. Here's the conclusion I drew from the responses in that thread:
Originally posted by rheverly:
. . . what this discussion does for me is free me up from my community minded dedication to voting the complete challenge in a challenge I enter; now I can do what I enjoy, too, which is take and submit pictures, and participate in the forums. I enjoy voting some days, some days I do not. Now when I don't want to, I won't; my commitment (shared by others here) to complete the vote in every challenge I enter, self-imposed and not generally accepted by all members of the community, need not be continued. |
Change that general DPC perception (that voting isn't important or is not a relevant part of what users must do here to keep the site alive), and I'll start voting again.
I do like  undieyatch's suggestion, which I think recognizes that what you get for your $25 is a really, really superbly run site that operates with minimal flaws and operational problems, some space for your images, and a chance to get good advice from awesome photographers and artists (and poets) here. More than that, it's up to the community. If you want more, if you want to compete, you need to recognize that competition requires a commitment to vote (or else everyone will do what I've done and stop voting, which is the only rational choice where some vote and others free ride on their efforts).
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11/11/2007 07:03:24 PM · #196 |
Originally posted by rheverly:
I do like undieyatch's suggestion, which I think recognizes that what you get for your $25 is a really, really superbly run site that operates with minimal flaws and operational problems, some space for your images, and a chance to get good advice from awesome photographers and artists (and poets) here. More than that, it's up to the community. If you want more, if you want to compete, you need to recognize that competition requires a commitment to vote (or else everyone will do what I've done and stop voting, which is the only rational choice where some vote and others free ride on their efforts). |
Nothing on this site should ever be a commitment, or an obligation, not ever. Conditions and obligations are just fuel for further resentment. And as I mentioned before, there are more than a few people out there who feel they cannot in good conscience vote on challenges in which they are participating because their participation biases their votes. Punitive measures aimed at non-voters, such as mandatory voting for participation, will not entice people to vote. It will, however, convince them to leave.
Actually, this response is a perfect example of why SC shouldn't be taking suggestions from the people who do vote regularly - their answers are a reflection of their own bitterness, resentment, perception of inequity, and so on. It certainly taints their answers, and is clearly pitting voters against non-voters instead of bringing the two groups closer to the middle. It's a defensive stance, not an inclusive action.
If you want the non-voters to vote, you need to ask them what it would take.
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11/11/2007 07:20:32 PM · #197 |
Originally posted by Rebecca:
Actually, this response is a perfect example of why SC shouldn't be taking suggestions from the people who do vote regularly - their answers are a reflection of their own bitterness, resentment, perception of inequity, and so on. It certainly taints their answers, and is clearly pitting voters against non-voters instead of bringing the two groups closer to the middle. It's a defensive stance, not an inclusive action.
If you want the non-voters to vote, you need to ask them what it would take. |
I most certainly cannot speak for the person you allude to, but I seriously doubt that  alanfreed is a bitter and resentful voter, and I can definitely assure you that I am not, and I do believe that both of us do indeed qualify as "Regular Voters".
It is sad that you would base your perception of voters on one singular comment, and would strongly urge you to read some of the proposals made and perhaps strive to add some constructive criticism to the fray.
Together, we might just find a solution to this problem.
Ray |
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11/11/2007 07:45:20 PM · #198 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by Rebecca:
Actually, this response is a perfect example of why SC shouldn't be taking suggestions from the people who do vote regularly - their answers are a reflection of their own bitterness, resentment, perception of inequity, and so on. It certainly taints their answers, and is clearly pitting voters against non-voters instead of bringing the two groups closer to the middle. It's a defensive stance, not an inclusive action.
If you want the non-voters to vote, you need to ask them what it would take. |
I most certainly cannot speak for the person you allude to, but I seriously doubt that alanfreed is a bitter and resentful voter, and I can definitely assure you that I am not, and I do believe that both of us do indeed qualify as "Regular Voters".
It is sad that you would base your perception of voters on one singular comment, and would strongly urge you to read some of the proposals made and perhaps strive to add some constructive criticism to the fray.
Together, we might just find a solution to this problem.
Ray |
How, as a voter, do you have any idea why people aren't voting? Because you clearly find reasons to vote, and therefore have no real idea why non-voters aren't voting. All you can do is guess, because you're not one of them. Most of what I've seen in this thread is either useless or punitive and alienating, and little of it comes from the people you're trying to motivate. So I repeat, why not ask them? That's the only way you'll ever really know why or how. Anything less is wasting a lot of time and energy.
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11/11/2007 09:43:55 PM · #199 |
Originally posted by Rebecca:
How, as a voter, do you have any idea why people aren't voting? Because you clearly find reasons to vote, and therefore have no real idea why non-voters aren't voting. All you can do is guess, because you're not one of them. Most of what I've seen in this thread is either useless or punitive and alienating, and little of it comes from the people you're trying to motivate. So I repeat, why not ask them? That's the only way you'll ever really know why or how. Anything less is wasting a lot of time and energy. |
She does have a point... I wonder if the site can sort out in some way a list of those who participate in challenges but vote very little, and send them a mail asking for feedback as to why? 'Cuz I doubt very many of the non-regular voters participate in these threads.
R.
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11/11/2007 11:20:56 PM · #200 |
Fine... let the SC take care of it.
Ray |
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