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11/02/2007 02:58:38 PM · #301 |
Originally posted by milo655321:
Originally posted by RonB:
Me, I much prefer the concept of free will and individual accountability. [emphasis added] |
Exodus 20:5-6 NKJV
(â¦) For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
Dance, monkey! Dance! |
Ha! That was cool. |
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11/02/2007 03:00:20 PM · #302 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by routerguy666:
Loathe as I am to argue the other side, I can see the logic for God creating 'evil' since all other aspects of creation are in perfect balance. If you believe he created all of it, it would make sense that there is an antithesis to himself. |
I don't see how. Why create the opposite of what you are, if you are a perfect being? You would then have to argue what "balance" is, and why there is a need for it, and what benefits from it. It's a morass of arguments that I don't think anyone can escape. |
Balance appears to be a requirement for existence. Everything is in perfect balance. Apparently the gods are not exempt.
Remove the human construct of 'evil' from the devil, and you end up with creation and destruction (god/devil) which we can see all around us as being in balance.
Probably what spawned the idea of gods and devils in the first place really. |
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11/02/2007 03:22:16 PM · #303 |
Without free will, we are robots. With free will, we may fall; and often do. If you were God and creating all things, would you prefer robots to creatures of free will who freely sang Your praise?
Lucifer is His fallen angel; it makes perfect logical sense.
R.
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11/02/2007 03:25:26 PM · #304 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
If you were God and creating all things, would you prefer robots to creatures of free will who freely sang Your praise?
Lucifer is His fallen angel; it makes perfect logical sense.
R. |
Except for the part about an omnipotent being creating infinite universes simply so people could sit around and sing his praises all day.
How vain. |
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11/02/2007 03:27:50 PM · #305 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Without free will, we are robots. With free will, we may fall; and often do. If you were God and creating all things, would you prefer robots to creatures of free will who freely sang Your praise? |
This supposes that there is a god, and that it needs constant reassurance in the form of cacophonic hymns. And it should be just as sweet music to such a god's ears when those entities deny its existence, being the glorious exercise of free will just as much as anything.
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Lucifer is His fallen angel; it makes perfect logical sense. |
No, it doesn't. It doesn't make any logical sense whatsoever. |
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11/02/2007 03:28:52 PM · #306 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
It has always seemed to me that if God created everything then God created Satan and since God *is* goodness and God's creations are good then Satan must be good ... however, if Satan is Evil then God created Evil and cannot be good. Of course, true faith requires the abandonment of logic and a belief in magic. |
This sounds like a variation of the philosophical 'all knowing, all loving, all powerful' paradox.
Good cannot exist without evil, so the creation of both was required. Did God create 'dark'? - It is alleged that he created 'light', but 'dark' was a required opposite in order for 'light' to exist. The same is true for 'good' and 'evil'
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11/02/2007 03:35:34 PM · #307 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Without free will, we are robots. With free will, we may fall; and often do. If you were God and creating all things, would you prefer robots to creatures of free will who freely sang Your praise? |
Just some rhetorical thoughts. I donât expect answers:
Can a being with free will be morally perfect or does free will necessitate moral imperfection? Can an omnipotent, omniscient God create a morally perfect being with free will? Why would a perfect being want/need praise?
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11/02/2007 03:37:19 PM · #308 |
Originally posted by jhonan:
Did God create 'dark'? - It is alleged that he created 'light', but 'dark' was a required opposite in order for 'light' to exist. The same is true for 'good' and 'evil' |
If God created light, then the dark existed previously, without the light -- the act of creation necessitates the existence to two separate states: before and after. Before, there was dark. After, there was light and dark.
It's right there at the beginning of the Old Testament (King James Version):
Book 01 Genesis
01:001:001 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
01:001:002 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was
upon the face of the deep.
Only after that did God create light. |
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11/02/2007 03:43:26 PM · #309 |
Originally posted by routerguy666:
Balance appears to be a requirement for existence. Everything is in perfect balance. |
No it's not ... most things are either markedly out of balance (e.g., universe expanding, distribution of matter) or in a constant back-and-forth flux usually, but not always, about a point of theoretical equilibrium (e.g., Malthusianism). |
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11/02/2007 03:58:26 PM · #310 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by routerguy666:
Balance appears to be a requirement for existence. Everything is in perfect balance. |
No it's not ... most things are either markedly out of balance (e.g., universe expanding, distribution of matter) or in a constant back-and-forth flux usually, but not always, about a point of theoretical equilibrium (e.g., Malthusianism). |
So you believe in a god then? If everything is not in balance, then by definition there is a net loss or net gain. That 'stuff' would have to be created or destroyed by something external to existence as we know it. Enter god.
Crazy photography site. Arguing over Newton's laws. |
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11/02/2007 04:06:43 PM · #311 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
If God created light, then the dark existed previously, without the light -- the act of creation necessitates the existence to two separate states: before and after. Before, there was dark. After, there was light and dark.
It's right there at the beginning of the Old Testament (King James Version):
Book 01 Genesis
01:001:001 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
01:001:002 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was
upon the face of the deep.
Only after that did God create light. |
Nothing in that says that God didn't create the universe-that-was (the dark, empty one): it just says that FROM that universe-that-was he created the universe-as-we-know-it...
R.
Message edited by author 2007-11-02 16:07:11.
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11/02/2007 05:14:13 PM · #312 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Without free will, we are robots. With free will, we may fall; and often do. If you were God and creating all things, would you prefer robots to creatures of free will who freely sang Your praise?
Lucifer is His fallen angel; it makes perfect logical sense.
R. |
Thank You for excellent wisdom, My Friend!
The problem with evil extant in the world has always been, why would a Good GOD create evil? The answer is simple. He didn't create evil. He created thinking individuals with a Free Will (free to choose for God or against Him.) This you were good enough to show us.
That is the Scandal of GRACE and the WISDOM of God. A lesser god would think as humans do universally, "I must insure obedience or I may lose my Power!"
The One True All-Powerful God Who infuriates lesser gods and humans alike by His unmitigated exclusivity...does not need to insure obedience.
Knowing that He IS All-Powerful, He doesn't need to "prove" this fact to anyone. No one exists with the strength to take God's power from Him! (Middle Linebackers do not fight 90 lb. weaklings...The fight would be humiliating. Winning would demonstrate cruelty! Losing...loss of power! Silence shows strength, confidence, control.)
God is not God,...unless He is also Supreme! The fact that He has not already righted all wrong is never a proof that He WILL not!
The LORD has promised to demonstrate His Power when He is "good and ready". That will be when this Human Sin-Bag, called Time & Earth, is completely filled to the brim! The Eternal Referee will then declare "Game Over!"
The Bottom Line is simply this, If you think you are strong enough to stop the LORD at any point, then please be my guest, but you will remember my words Forever, especially when you kneel in front of Him and begrudgingly admit, "Yes, You ARE LORD!"
"God created man in his own image. And man, being a gentleman, returned the favor."
-- Rousseau This quote from an atheist website is used to demonstrate the fact that Truth is Truth!
What a man touts as wisdom in "stiff-necked" boasting today will be the same words from which that man will recoil in shame from such foolishness as he crumples in the presence of Holy God!
Mock me, and you win merely a "hollow victory." Mock God and you lose everything in the only future scenario where anything & everything will matter!
Message edited by author 2007-11-02 17:17:20.
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11/02/2007 05:18:25 PM · #313 |
Originally posted by routerguy666:
Arguing over Newton's laws. |
Newton was wrong, just ask Einstein. |
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11/02/2007 05:23:55 PM · #314 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by routerguy666:
Arguing over Newton's laws. |
Newton was wrong, just ask Einstein. |
Einstein was a poor violinist. |
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11/02/2007 05:36:42 PM · #315 |
Hey, 777STAN,
Do you know what would really make your ideas stand out? Try playing around with different sized fonts. If at all possible, also look into adding a few splashes of color. Nothing says âTRUTHâ ⢠like a posting done almost entirely in the color red.
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11/02/2007 06:05:30 PM · #316 |
Originally posted by 777STAN:
The Bottom Line is simply this, If you think you are strong enough to stop the LORD at any point, then please be my guest, but you will remember my words Forever, especially when you kneel in front of Him and begrudgingly admit, "Yes, You ARE LORD!" |
So can we make this decision using our free will, or is it forced upon us by 'the Lord'? - Because I know when my time comes and I am kneeling before this alleged Lord and he gives me the choice between eternal boredom or annihilation, I choose the latter.
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11/02/2007 07:00:52 PM · #317 |
Why is it so difficult to accept the idea that I may love you so much that I set you free? As parents, is that not the choice we always have to make?
R.
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11/02/2007 07:16:34 PM · #318 |
Originally posted by jhonan:
Originally posted by 777STAN:
The Bottom Line is simply this, If you think you are strong enough to stop the LORD at any point, then please be my guest, but you will remember my words Forever, especially when you kneel in front of Him and begrudgingly admit, "Yes, You ARE LORD!" |
So can we make this decision using our free will, or is it forced upon us by 'the Lord'? - Because I know when my time comes and I am kneeling before this alleged Lord and he gives me the choice between eternal boredom or annihilation, I choose the latter. |
If you want to know the honest truth, Heaven isn't going to be eternal boredom, but Hell is going to be eternal annihilation, and God has given you the choice while you are on earth, not after death. Life is your chance to decide, their is no choice after death.
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11/02/2007 07:43:59 PM · #319 |
Originally posted by ryand:
If you want to know the honest truth, Heaven isn't going to be eternal boredom, but Hell is going to be eternal annihilation, and God has given you the choice while you are on earth, not after death. Life is your chance to decide, their is no choice after death. |
Eternity means forever, for an infinite amount of time into the future. 80 or 90 years on this Earth is enough for most people, they've done everything they've wanted to do, and seen everything they wanted to see. They're happy with their life. No matter how joyous the 'afterlife' is, I doubt I'd be very much interested in hanging around for more than a couple of hundred years or so.
Who said annihilation is Hell? Annihilation means nothing. Zero. A state of non-existence. If you don't exist you're not going to even be aware of 'Hell', or much else for that matter. |
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11/02/2007 09:45:33 PM · #320 |
Originally posted by 777STAN:
...much holier-than-thou ranting removed... |
Holy Christ, I can fairly smell the fire 'n' brimstone reeking off ya! Enough already!
Originally posted by 777STAN:
"God created man in his own image. And man, being a gentleman, returned the favor."
-- Rousseau This quote from an atheist website is used to demonstrate the fact that Truth is Truth! |
Pssst... Don't look now, but I think you missed the point...
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11/02/2007 10:22:57 PM · #321 |
Originally posted by jhonan:
Originally posted by ryand:
If you want to know the honest truth, Heaven isn't going to be eternal boredom, but Hell is going to be eternal annihilation, and God has given you the choice while you are on earth, not after death. Life is your chance to decide, their is no choice after death. |
Eternity means forever, for an infinite amount of time into the future. 80 or 90 years on this Earth is enough for most people, they've done everything they've wanted to do, and seen everything they wanted to see. They're happy with their life. No matter how joyous the 'afterlife' is, I doubt I'd be very much interested in hanging around for more than a couple of hundred years or so.
Who said annihilation is Hell? Annihilation means nothing. Zero. A state of non-existence. If you don't exist you're not going to even be aware of 'Hell', or much else for that matter. |
Oh, well i misused annihilation, i meant to use torture more so in reference to Hell.
And Heaven compares nothing to this earth, it is something that i don't admit to understanding, but i know that it is far beyond the greatest thing in this world. I won't know what it is like until i get there, but i know i can expect it to be absolutely awesome.
Message edited by author 2007-11-02 22:23:32.
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11/02/2007 10:25:25 PM · #322 |
Originally posted by ryand:
Oh, well i misused annihilation, i meant to use torture more so in reference to Hell. |
So the 'all-loving' God would allow his creations to suffer eternal torture in Hell? That doesn't sound very loving to me. |
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11/02/2007 11:13:36 PM · #323 |
I just love all this crap about how if you don't see "The Way", you'll be annihilated, burn in Hell, better make up your mind now, 'cause once you die, time's up.
I say Bullshit!
The God of my understanding isn't a petty, pedantic God of punishment and intolerance.
And I really resent that whole condescending "You'll see" attitude.
Guess what?
You *DON'T* really know for sure, you have your faith and beliefs, but you're doing that same crap all over again with preaching that yours is the only way.
And the best part? I readily admit that I don't know, and I'm not so pompously convinced that my answer/faith/beliefs are not only true, but the only way.
Therefore as a good and decent being trying to live life as I understand that my God has intended me to, I hope and pray that your faith and beliefs give you strength and comfort, and that you too realize that maybe......you don't really have the answers, but that you should live life to be your best and treat your fellow man with decency, respect, love, and compassion.
Peace out.
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11/03/2007 09:39:13 AM · #324 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by 777STAN:
(...much holier-than-thou ranting removed...) |
Holy Christ, I can fairly smell the fire 'n' brimstone reeking off ya! Enough already! |
Louis, I can respect that you differ from me in both belief and emotional experiences that apparently back up the belief. I admit that I have no power to strike your heart with the conviction that what I am telling you is true.
However, it is also apparent that the One Who has this power to convict your heart has already begun His work! I will pray that He continues (John 6:44) before it is everlastingly too late for you! I am glad to see that you are angry. I am encouraged that you are not totally "past feeling."
"The fire & brimstone" that you "smell...reeking off (me)" is, also, a good sign that the message has been placed into your heart during childhood by the LORD answering the prayers of one or both of your parents who loved you and took you to church regularly, and who are still praying for you TODAY, still loving you TODAY, and begging God to send somebody like me to you to tell you that you are "NOT TOO FAR GONE," even yet!
The words you are using prove that Jesus is still knocking at your "heart's door." (Revelation 3:20) You need only open and give up. He will change you. He gave you His Word! (John 3:16)
Message edited by author 2007-11-03 09:45:35.
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11/03/2007 09:49:04 AM · #325 |
Originally posted by 777STAN:
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by 777STAN:
(...much holier-than-thou ranting removed...) |
Holy Christ, I can fairly smell the fire 'n' brimstone reeking off ya! Enough already! |
Louis, I can respect that you differ from me in both belief and emotional experiences that apparently back up the belief. |
You seem to like bold fonts to accentuate what you consider important, so I thought I would help you see (what I percieve to be) what it is that Louis was seemingly trying to convey.
Ray |
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