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11/01/2007 07:05:47 PM · #276 |
I hardly consider Satanic beliefs as a valid "religion." Sorry. For the convenience of your argument, you're taking a group that has nothing to do with anything good in society, and saying that because I would reject them, I am a hypocrite.
Sorry, but I don't think any reasonable person, no matter how "tolerant" they are, would want to invite Satanic beliefs into the lives of their children, no more than I would invite registered sex offenders or the KKK into my daughter's school as hall monitors or bus drivers. I like to exercise a little common sense from time to time.
If there's something I'm missing about the Satanic community here, and that there's evidence that these are really good, fun lovin', decent people... I apologize for misunderstanding their beliefs and practices in the name of worshiping The Dark Lord.
Would I invite the opportunity to learn more about Muslims, or Judaism, or Hindu, etc.? Sure. While they may have differing views, other major religions are founded on principles of doing good.
So you can consider this the THIRD time I've displayed this hypocritical behavior :)
I'm going to go figure out why my command isn't working properly :)
Originally posted by rossbilly:
Alan, should you find yourself in this thread again, please consider the statement above. Sorry, but you have done exactly what I said - not once, but TWICE now. I'm not attacking you, merely pointing out a behavior. You said that:
"I don't see where the Christian (or other religious communities) are the ones who are rejecting other views. I just don't hear Christians complaining about the presence of menorahs, or Jews getting upset about Santa Claus. It seems that it's always non-religious people attacking religion."
My friend, I am afraid you just DID (complain of another religion)... |
Message edited by author 2007-11-01 19:13:57. |
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11/01/2007 07:23:01 PM · #277 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
IIRC, his ORIGINAL premise was that all groups should be excluded from distributing their "word" in his daughter's school.
And somehow that got twisted around to him being pissed off about an invitation to a party. |
Well now, let's just take another look at that original post, now, shall we?
Originally posted by rossbilly:
Several papers came home with our 6 year old daughter today:
1. Girl Scout registration papers. (ok) |
Cookies, good stuff. Mmmm. Rossbilly doesn't seem to have a problem with the Girl Scouts spreading their word.
Originally posted by rossbilly:
2. Local Church accepting requests for children needing coats. (also ok) |
Lo and behold here - Rossbilly doesn't seem to have a problem with kids being warm. No problem with this Church spreading their word through actual action.
Originally posted by rossbilly:
3. Weekly 'whats happening' paper says NO costumes for Halloween. (disappointed kids, but acceptable) |
No idea who this is from, but I guess it doesn't matter.
Originally posted by rossbilly:
4. Glossy (professional!) insert for Halloween festivities held by local church. (still ok, though I don't quite understand what they mean by "Friendly costumes welcome") |
Ooh -- professional! So I guess there's no problem with this church because they give a slick presentation. Otherwise, why mention how nice it looked?
Originally posted by rossbilly:
5. Plain paper ad, proclaiming "GOD SPOT Block Party" & "Everything is FREE! (Just like God's Salvation)". {{{NOT OK!!!}}}
Yes, I'm griping about the whole 'separation of church & state' thing... sorry, I just thought 'separation' was a very simple word to understand & follow!!! Heck, I don't even care that the school building is used for AFTER school bible study (completely voluntary) - so long as equal access is offered to everyone. ::sigh:: |
PLAIN PAPER -- Good heavens!
Originally posted by rossbilly:
Can anyone please give rational thought as to why I shouldn't be SO worked up about this? No moral / religious propaganda, please - the law IS very clear, and my calling the school tomorrow won't change Federal mandates...
Billy |
So when Rossbilly says "Oh, EVERY group should be excluded" I just have to wonder why the Girl Scouts, The Community Happenings, and TWO other churches -- their message is OK? Why are these other ones OK? Because they aren't groups? Not religious? Because they had a slick presentation?
Seems to me Rossbilly is OK with one Halloween party invitation and not with another. And the only difference between the two was that one of the hosts gave a slick (glossy! professional!) presentation and the was just on plain paper. Oh yeah, and a statement about God's salvation.
Which I guess is OK to believe as long as you don't say so...
Or stick up for it.
So let's have another 10 pages of histrionic diatribe, and vitriolic insulting each other, and more foolishishness about how no one has the "right" to offend anyone else.
Rossbilly, you don't get to say you aren't Anti-Religion and that you only meant that all religious groups should be banned from sending papers home, because that just doesn't wash water. Clearly, you were not offended by the offerings of the other groups, even other church groups.... you were only offended when someone mentioned God.
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11/01/2007 07:28:41 PM · #278 |
I never said it was 'good' OR 'bad' - I simply stated it was a religion.
But, again, NOT allowing Satanists to send messages of their faith IN A SCHOOL PROVIDED document is kinda the whole point, isn't it? Regardless of any of US think it (or any other belief) 'valid', does not change what the courts would decide.
You mentioned the KKK. Seems they have the right to free speech, right? Are they not allowed to assemble publicly?
I'll say this as plainly as possible:
What group has the right to say WHICH religions should be allowed to push their agenda in schools?
...none, because it has already been decided that NONE are to push their agenda in schools BY THE COURTS!
Again, if YOU** don't want a group YOU don't approve of to push THEIR agenda (when they clearly have exactly the same rights as you), then why should you be allowed to push yours?
**not 'you' Alan! LOL its aimed at each individual reader, as a rhetorical question.
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11/01/2007 07:42:55 PM · #279 |
Originally posted by L2:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
IIRC, his ORIGINAL premise was that all groups should be excluded from distributing their "word" in his daughter's school.
And somehow that got twisted around to him being pissed off about an invitation to a party. |
Well now, let's just take another look at that original post, now, shall we?
Originally posted by rossbilly:
Several papers came home with our 6 year old daughter today:
1. Girl Scout registration papers. (ok) |
Cookies, good stuff. Mmmm. Rossbilly doesn't seem to have a problem with the Girl Scouts spreading their word.
Originally posted by rossbilly:
2. Local Church accepting requests for children needing coats. (also ok) |
Lo and behold here - Rossbilly doesn't seem to have a problem with kids being warm. No problem with this Church spreading their word through actual action.
Originally posted by rossbilly:
3. Weekly 'whats happening' paper says NO costumes for Halloween. (disappointed kids, but acceptable) |
No idea who this is from, but I guess it doesn't matter.
Originally posted by rossbilly:
4. Glossy (professional!) insert for Halloween festivities held by local church. (still ok, though I don't quite understand what they mean by "Friendly costumes welcome") |
Ooh -- professional! So I guess there's no problem with this church because they give a slick presentation. Otherwise, why mention how nice it looked?
Originally posted by rossbilly:
5. Plain paper ad, proclaiming "GOD SPOT Block Party" & "Everything is FREE! (Just like God's Salvation)". {{{NOT OK!!!}}}
Yes, I'm griping about the whole 'separation of church & state' thing... sorry, I just thought 'separation' was a very simple word to understand & follow!!! Heck, I don't even care that the school building is used for AFTER school bible study (completely voluntary) - so long as equal access is offered to everyone. ::sigh:: |
PLAIN PAPER -- Good heavens!
Originally posted by rossbilly:
Can anyone please give rational thought as to why I shouldn't be SO worked up about this? No moral / religious propaganda, please - the law IS very clear, and my calling the school tomorrow won't change Federal mandates...
Billy |
So when Rossbilly says "Oh, EVERY group should be excluded" I just have to wonder why the Girl Scouts, The Community Happenings, and TWO other churches -- their message is OK? Why are these other ones OK? Because they aren't groups? Not religious? Because they had a slick presentation?
Seems to me Rossbilly is OK with one Halloween party invitation and not with another. And the only difference between the two was that one of the hosts gave a slick (glossy! professional!) presentation and the was just on plain paper. Oh yeah, and a statement about God's salvation.
Which I guess is OK to believe as long as you don't say so...
Or stick up for it.
So let's have another 10 pages of histrionic diatribe, and vitriolic insulting each other, and more foolishishness about how no one has the "right" to offend anyone else.
Rossbilly, you don't get to say you aren't Anti-Religion and that you only meant that all religious groups should be banned from sending papers home, because that just doesn't wash water. Clearly, you were not offended by the offerings of the other groups, even other church groups.... you were only offended when someone mentioned God. |
Lady, you have an INCREDIBLE knack for twisting words...
You are right though. I do **NOT** have a problem with religious groups offering to do good things for the community. The point of including all the documents received that day is that ONLY one that tried to push an agenda, and that is the one I take issue with.
What is so hard to understand about this?????
Forget it - I'll just take General's advice & go find every group of 'not valid' religions & have each of them submit documents to the school system. When they are summarily rejected, I will sue the crap out of the teachers / principle / school board / county / state. THAT will fix everything, won't it?
Thank GOD i didn't screw up by trying to have a calm discussion with the school administrators!!!!!!! sheesh...
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11/01/2007 07:58:54 PM · #280 |
Originally posted by alanfreed:
I hardly consider Satanic beliefs as a valid "religion." Sorry. For the convenience of your argument, you're taking a group that has nothing to do with anything good in society, and saying that because I would reject them, I am a hypocrite. |
"Satanism" isn't really a valid "religion", per se. It's more of a response to perceived weaknesses in current monotheistic dogmas. I'd think Anton LaVey, founder of the modern "Satanic Church" chose the affiliation more for its' shock value to Western Christians rather than any allegiance to the "Dark Lord". Frankly, it reminds me more of G. I. Gurdjieff or Aleister Crowley occultism/spirituality, instead of the cat-sacrificers depicted by media.
For the record, I am not a "Satanist", lol.
..........
The Nine Satanic Statements:
1. Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence!
2. Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams!
3. Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit!
4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates!
5. Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek!
6. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires!
7. Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his âdivine spiritual and intellectual development,â has become the most vicious animal of all!
8. Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!
9. Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years!
----------
11 Satanic Rules of Earth
1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
2. Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.
3. When in anotherâs lair, show him respect or else do not go there.
4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.
5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
6. Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.
7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.
8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
9. Do not harm little children.
10. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.
11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.
.........
Satanic Sins
1. Stupidity
2. Pretentiousness
3. Solipsism.
4. Self-deceit
5. Herd Conformity - personal note: haha! The very definition of self-defeating statement
6. Lack of Perspective
7. Forgetfulness of Past Orthodoxies
8. Counterproductive Pride
9. Lack of Aesthetics
Message edited by author 2007-11-02 12:43:40. |
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11/01/2007 08:21:36 PM · #281 |
Originally posted by david_c:
For the record, I am not a "Satanist", lol.
The Nine Satanic Statements:
1. Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence!
2. Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams!
3. Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit!
4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates!
5. Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek!
6. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires!
7. Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his âdivine spiritual and intellectual development,â has become the most vicious animal of all!
8. Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!
9. Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years!
11 Satanic Rules of Earth
1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
2. Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.
3. When in anotherâs lair, show him respect or else do not go there.
4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.
5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
6. Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.
7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.
8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
9. Do not harm little children.
10. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.
11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.
Satanic Sins
1. Stupidity
2. Pretentiousness
3. Solipsism.
4. Self-deceit
5. Herd Conformity - personal note: haha! The very definition of self-defeating statement
6. Lack of Perspective
7. Forgetfulness of Past Orthodoxies
8. Counterproductive Pride
9. Lack of Aesthetics |
Sounds like a weird blend of selfishness, hedonism, and common sense.
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11/01/2007 10:18:59 PM · #282 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
The practice of religion is prohibited. (e.g. prayer, professions of faith, preaching etc.) |
Can we clear that up some... prayer is not/never has been prohibited in school. School officials are just not allowed to force prayer on students.
If a student desires to pray, they are more than welcomed to do so. |
Right, my bad. I meant the practice of religion as part of a school sponsored activity or class etc. If a student wishes to pray, they can. |
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11/01/2007 10:30:55 PM · #283 |
Originally posted by L2:
Originally posted by rossbilly:
5. Plain paper ad, proclaiming "GOD SPOT Block Party" & "Everything is FREE! (Just like God's Salvation)". {{{NOT OK!!!}}}
Yes, I'm griping about the whole 'separation of church & state' thing... sorry, I just thought 'separation' was a very simple word to understand & follow!!! Heck, I don't even care that the school building is used for AFTER school bible study (completely voluntary) - so long as equal access is offered to everyone. ::sigh:: |
PLAIN PAPER -- Good heavens!
Originally posted by rossbilly:
Can anyone please give rational thought as to why I shouldn't be SO worked up about this? No moral / religious propaganda, please - the law IS very clear, and my calling the school tomorrow won't change Federal mandates...
Billy |
So when Rossbilly says "Oh, EVERY group should be excluded" I just have to wonder why the Girl Scouts, The Community Happenings, and TWO other churches -- their message is OK? Why are these other ones OK? Because they aren't groups? Not religious? Because they had a slick presentation?
Seems to me Rossbilly is OK with one Halloween party invitation and not with another. And the only difference between the two was that one of the hosts gave a slick (glossy! professional!) presentation and the was just on plain paper. Oh yeah, and a statement about God's salvation.
Which I guess is OK to believe as long as you don't say so...
Or stick up for it.
So let's have another 10 pages of histrionic diatribe, and vitriolic insulting each other, and more foolishishness about how no one has the "right" to offend anyone else.
Rossbilly, you don't get to say you aren't Anti-Religion and that you only meant that all religious groups should be banned from sending papers home, because that just doesn't wash water. Clearly, you were not offended by the offerings of the other groups, even other church groups.... you were only offended when someone mentioned God. |
From what's been posted, the other flyers make no attempt at religious proselytizing. The "(Just like God's Salvation)" part does.
Message edited by author 2007-11-01 22:31:25. |
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11/01/2007 10:36:58 PM · #284 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
If a student wishes to pray, they can. |
Just check any classroom before a math test! |
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11/01/2007 10:42:53 PM · #285 |
Since Satan is a construct of the Christian Church, anyone who professes to be a "Satanist" is a de-facto believer in God ...
It has always seemed to me that if God created everything then God created Satan and since God *is* goodness and God's creations are good then Satan must be good ... however, if Satan is Evil then God created Evil and cannot be good. Of course, true faith requires the abandonment of logic and a belief in magic. |
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11/01/2007 10:43:20 PM · #286 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
If a student wishes to pray, they can. |
Just check any classroom before a math test! |
That's just the students hiding their crib sheets and not a demonstration of faith. |
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11/01/2007 11:08:20 PM · #287 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Since Satan is a construct of the Christian Church, anyone who professes to be a "Satanist" is a de-facto believer in God ...
It has always seemed to me that if God created everything then God created Satan and since God *is* goodness and God's creations are good then Satan must be good ... however, if Satan is Evil then God created Evil and cannot be good. Of course, true faith requires the abandonment of logic and a belief in magic. |
You actually DO poke hornets' nests, don't you?.....8>)
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11/02/2007 11:53:57 AM · #288 |
Originally posted by L2:
Originally posted by rossbilly:
...I'm merely stating that, if ANY groups should be excluded from presenting their perspective, then it is only fair to exclude ALL such groups.
Billy |
And yet, you have failed to provide a shred of evidence that ANY group was excluded from presenting their perspective. |
Er... that wasn't the argument? |
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11/02/2007 11:55:35 AM · #289 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Since Satan is a construct of the Christian Church, anyone who professes to be a "Satanist" is a de-facto believer in God ...
It has always seemed to me that if God created everything then God created Satan and since God *is* goodness and God's creations are good then Satan must be good ... however, if Satan is Evil then God created Evil and cannot be good. Of course, true faith requires the abandonment of logic and a belief in magic. |
Then if you believe in god then you in turn must be a satanist? |
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11/02/2007 11:57:56 AM · #290 |
Since Satanism came up, I thought I'd mention Anton LeVay's views on what "Catism" and "Dogism" are. Pre-apologies for the profanity (and stop reading here if expletives make your eyes bleed).
Catism: Don't run if you can walk, don't walk if you can stand, don't stand if you can sit, don't sit if you can lie down, and don't stay awake if you can go to sleep.
Dogism: If you can't eat it and you can't fuck it, piss on it. |
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11/02/2007 12:04:28 PM · #291 |
Originally posted by ajdelaware:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Since Satan is a construct of the Christian Church, anyone who professes to be a "Satanist" is a de-facto believer in God ...
It has always seemed to me that if God created everything then God created Satan and since God *is* goodness and God's creations are good then Satan must be good ... however, if Satan is Evil then God created Evil and cannot be good. Of course, true faith requires the abandonment of logic and a belief in magic. |
Then if you believe in god then you in turn must be a satanist? |
What you've said is boiling it down to semantics, or how you want to use your terms. But if you believe in a universally good god that created an entity that is universally evil, or if you believe in a universally good god that created a universe that allows for a universally evil entity, you have committed a logical infraction from which there is no escape.
Message edited by author 2007-11-02 12:27:54. |
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11/02/2007 12:09:20 PM · #292 |
Originally posted by ajdelaware:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Since Satan is a construct of the Christian Church, anyone who professes to be a "Satanist" is a de-facto believer in God ...
It has always seemed to me that if God created everything then God created Satan and since God *is* goodness and God's creations are good then Satan must be good ... however, if Satan is Evil then God created Evil and cannot be good. Of course, true faith requires the abandonment of logic and a belief in magic. |
Then if you believe in god then you in turn must be a satanist? |
No what he is saying is that "Satan" is a integral part of Christianity. Without the opposition of Satan most tenants of Christianity would fail. Other side of the same coin.
This is why the belief of some Christians that if you are not in our club you MUST be a satanist fails. Satan (the Dark Lord) is a part of your religion not mine.
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11/02/2007 01:02:45 PM · #293 |
Originally posted by Louis:
But if you believe in a universally good god that created an entity that is universally evil, or if you believe in a universally good god that created a universe that allows for a universally evil entity, you have committed a logical infraction from which there is no escape. |
The logical infraction should only exist for those who truly believe that evil is genetic - as in, good parents cannot sire evil offspring. If one does subscribe to that logic, then it would seem that they would hold the parent's accountable for the evil committed by rapists, murderers, child molesters, etc.
Me, I much prefer the concept of free will and individual accountability. |
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11/02/2007 01:40:51 PM · #294 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Louis:
But if you believe in a universally good god that created an entity that is universally evil, or if you believe in a universally good god that created a universe that allows for a universally evil entity, you have committed a logical infraction from which there is no escape. |
The logical infraction should only exist for those who truly believe that evil is genetic - as in, good parents cannot sire evil offspring. If one does subscribe to that logic, then it would seem that they would hold the parent's accountable for the evil committed by rapists, murderers, child molesters, etc. |
Reasoning error (specifically an inductive logical fallacy). You have put forward an argument that depends on accepting that this particular god's creations are out of its control, when in fact, we are asked to believe in its omnipotence.
Please refer to this part of my post:
if you believe in a universally good god that created a universe that allows for a universally evil entity... |
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11/02/2007 01:51:40 PM · #295 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Reasoning error (specifically an inductive logical fallacy). You have put forward an argument that depends on accepting that this particular god's creations are out of its control, when in fact, we are asked to believe in its omnipotence.
Please refer to this part of my post:
if you believe in a universally good god that created a universe that allows for a universally evil entity... |
I did read that - and disagree with it. YOUR presupposition that I must accept that this particular god's creations are out of its control is without merit.
The ABILITY TO control does not logically compel the bearer of that ability to EXERCISE control at all times. Just because He CAN doesn't mean He HAS to. |
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11/02/2007 01:52:53 PM · #296 |
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11/02/2007 02:24:23 PM · #297 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Louis:
Reasoning error (specifically an inductive logical fallacy). You have put forward an argument that depends on accepting that this particular god's creations are out of its control, when in fact, we are asked to believe in its omnipotence.
Please refer to this part of my post:
if you believe in a universally good god that created a universe that allows for a universally evil entity... |
I did read that - and disagree with it. |
You can disagree with it all you like, but that doesn't negate the inherent silliness in this line of reasoning:
God is all-good and creates nothing evil.
God created Satan.
Satan is evil.
Where I think you err is in your suppostion that God also created free will, with which your Satan chose to become evil. But since God created everything extant in the universe, he also created free will, the implement by which evil could be chosen, because since evil is a choice, it must have preexisted in order to be a choice, so God must have created it in order for it to be chosen. At this point, we permit your ears to begin smoking and your necklace to start flashing à la Mudd's women. |
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11/02/2007 02:39:30 PM · #298 |
| Loathe as I am to argue the other side, I can see the logic for God creating 'evil' since all other aspects of creation are in perfect balance. If you believe he created all of it, it would make sense that there is an antithesis to himself. |
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11/02/2007 02:53:12 PM · #299 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Me, I much prefer the concept of free will and individual accountability. [emphasis added] |
Exodus 20:5-6 NKJV
(â¦) For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
Dance, monkey! Dance!
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11/02/2007 02:54:44 PM · #300 |
Originally posted by routerguy666:
Loathe as I am to argue the other side, I can see the logic for God creating 'evil' since all other aspects of creation are in perfect balance. If you believe he created all of it, it would make sense that there is an antithesis to himself. |
I don't see how. Why create the opposite of what you are, if you are a perfect being? You would then have to argue what "balance" is, and why there is a need for it, and what benefits from it. It's a morass of arguments that I don't think anyone can escape. |
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