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10/30/2007 10:35:23 AM · #126 |
Originally posted by muckpond:
Originally posted by sher:
Originally posted by muckpond:
unfortunately, very few people are able to state the cultural impact of ANY religion from an objective point of view. you're demonstrating that right now -- you're not telling us why you believe what you do but are instead referring to dissenters as do-badders and liars.
it's really people like YOU who are the problem. if you could discuss this in a rational, intelligent manner it would be a lot easier to listen to what you have to say. |
no different than some of the terms i've seen bandied about referring to the Christian side of the argument...Jesus Bux? Religious nutjobs? i find both of these term to be highly offensive. and feel just as strongly about them as you do about "do-badders" and "liars". so, maybe point of view should be taken into consideration before making a statement like you made above. just sayin'
i realize that i'm behind on this but you guys are just too fast at replying for me to keep up. :P i just felt i needed to address this. |
touche, and you are correct. i will point out, however, that although i snickered at "Jesus Bux" (which i laughed at mostly of the context), i've refrained from any name-calling here. i don't think i referred to anyone as a nutjob or anything else derogatory, at least not in this thread. |
that's true, you haven't referred to anyone derogatorily and i didn't mean to single you out. i should have spoke in more general terms.
you know i love ya, you li'l devil. ;) xo
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10/30/2007 10:36:13 AM · #127 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by muckpond:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Actually, there is nothing legally preventing the school from endorsing salvation. Just a lot of hot air imagined around the first amendment. The school is not Congress. |
Actually, you seem to have no concept of how constitutional law works. If "the Congress" is prohibited from doing something, all subsidiary government entities are likewise prohibited from doing so. That's why your local County Board of Supervisors can't pass a law allowing illegal searches or reinstating slavery ... |
Sure I understand -- that is the CREATION OF A LAW -- which may or may not be unconstitutional. A local government putting out a nativity scene is not creating a law and therefore there is nothing to question. A public school teacher reading a Bible at her desk is doing nothing wrong either. |
so you'd be ok with a public school teacher reading the Koran? what about books on the occult? paganism? satanic rituals? |
At her desk, to herself, in her own time? Sure. |
this was my mistake. i thought you meant reading outloud, like, to the class.
on his/her own time, whatever goes. that's been my point all along. you spend your time doing what you want. i'll spend my time doing what i want. as long as you're not interfering with what i want to do, or vice-versa, we should be cool.
i wish it could be as simple as that.
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10/30/2007 10:37:33 AM · #128 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by muckpond:
so you'd be ok with a public school teacher reading the Koran? what about books on the occult? paganism? satanic rituals? |
You bet!
I'd like to have my child be aware of the vast differences of what's out there.
Haven't any of you had to explain to your kids what the flock is up with the kids in all black with the shrapnel hanging out of their faces?
If some of these walking humanities cases were explained in their basics, then maybe it wouldn't be so one-sided.
In some countries, ALL the kids go to school in robes......I have no problem with my kid knowing that and something about why.
I believe in God, but I know something about Buddha, Allah, and many other religions, and it wasn't until I did that I was able to make my own mind up about things.
I believe in Jesus, but not as the son of God. That'll piss of Christians, but hey, I believe that he was just a really good man and that his teachings were relevant, not who he was.
That's what school is all about to me, TEACHING, and what we teach is what our kids will learn.
Personally, I'd love it if there were religion courses in school.....but for ALL the religions, and their beliefs and history, NOT to enlist.
That said, it'll never happen, but I'm also not going to make a federal case out of it if a flyer that's over the edge gets sent home. They DIDN'T proof it, they were just passing it out. They shouldn't have overlooked it, but they did.
Now it's on you to be the sharp parent, catch it, and make it into a lesson for life. |
Thank you for the rational point of view about this! |
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10/30/2007 10:43:39 AM · #129 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
That's what school is all about to me, TEACHING, and what we teach is what our kids will learn.
Personally, I'd love it if there were religion courses in school.....but for ALL the religions, and their beliefs and history, NOT to enlist. |
that was totally my point earlier, even if i didn't spell it out properly. i think socially and culturally everyone should be educated about the fundamentals of the major world religions. the issue is that there's not an easy way for everyone to discuss it with a rational, open-minded point of view. this thread is a perfect example of that.
i think religions should be taught in the same way government constructs are taught (to what little extent they are). why can we relatively easily give the fundamentals of capitalism and communism and socialism and facisim, but not on the major points of religions? why is that so hard?
a very good friend of mine just got married to a man who converted to islam for her. the groom's parents were kind of taken aback about the conversion, but were OK. it wasn't until we were in an islamic country (at the actual wedding) that they learned that God and Allah are really the same person. (i know that's a horrendous oversimplification.) the concept that the two religions might share some backstory was completely confounding to them. they knew nothing about islam other than what they'd seen on CNN.
that's so incredibly sad to me.
Message edited by author 2007-10-30 10:43:59.
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10/30/2007 10:46:24 AM · #130 |
Originally posted by saracat:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by muckpond:
so you'd be ok with a public school teacher reading the Koran? what about books on the occult? paganism? satanic rituals? |
You bet!
I'd like to have my child be aware of the vast differences of what's out there.
Haven't any of you had to explain to your kids what the flock is up with the kids in all black with the shrapnel hanging out of their faces?
If some of these walking humanities cases were explained in their basics, then maybe it wouldn't be so one-sided.
In some countries, ALL the kids go to school in robes......I have no problem with my kid knowing that and something about why.
I believe in God, but I know something about Buddha, Allah, and many other religions, and it wasn't until I did that I was able to make my own mind up about things.
I believe in Jesus, but not as the son of God. That'll piss of Christians, but hey, I believe that he was just a really good man and that his teachings were relevant, not who he was.
That's what school is all about to me, TEACHING, and what we teach is what our kids will learn.
Personally, I'd love it if there were religion courses in school.....but for ALL the religions, and their beliefs and history, NOT to enlist.
That said, it'll never happen, but I'm also not going to make a federal case out of it if a flyer that's over the edge gets sent home. They DIDN'T proof it, they were just passing it out. They shouldn't have overlooked it, but they did.
Now it's on you to be the sharp parent, catch it, and make it into a lesson for life. |
Thank you for the rational point of view about this! |
Actually, while I don't disagree with NikonJeb's philosophy, rossbilly didn't say he disagreed with exposing his children to other religions, or that he'd have a problem with his children knowing that all "the kids go to school in robes" in some countries.
I doubt that the school "didn't proof" this either. Schools I know are not in the habit of sending out flyers they haven't read. Rossbilly is not "making a federal case" out of this: he is not marching or screaming or suing. He is simply going to call the school to discuss what is clearly a step over the "separation of church & state" line.
Message edited by author 2007-10-31 11:21:25. |
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10/30/2007 11:29:55 AM · #131 |
Originally posted by muckpond:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
That's what school is all about to me, TEACHING, and what we teach is what our kids will learn.
Personally, I'd love it if there were religion courses in school.....but for ALL the religions, and their beliefs and history, NOT to enlist. |
that was totally my point earlier, even if i didn't spell it out properly. i think socially and culturally everyone should be educated about the fundamentals of the major world religions. the issue is that there's not an easy way for everyone to discuss it with a rational, open-minded point of view. this thread is a perfect example of that.
i think religions should be taught in the same way government constructs are taught (to what little extent they are). why can we relatively easily give the fundamentals of capitalism and communism and socialism and facisim, but not on the major points of religions? why is that so hard?
a very good friend of mine just got married to a man who converted to islam for her. the groom's parents were kind of taken aback about the conversion, but were OK. it wasn't until we were in an islamic country (at the actual wedding) that they learned that God and Allah are really the same person. (i know that's a horrendous oversimplification.) the concept that the two religions might share some backstory was completely confounding to them. they knew nothing about islam other than what they'd seen on CNN.
that's so incredibly sad to me. |
totally off topic, but it is an oversimplification to say God and Allah are one in the same. The Muslims I've talked to, read, heard, etc and the Christians I've talked to, read, and heard, don't believe this. It is good wordplay to smooth ruffled feathers, but the two are very much NOT the same.
edit to add -- and I agree that teaching the fundamentals of religions in school is a good idea. I'm surprised that it is not. Here, in the deep center of the Bible belt, in the backwoods of the Appalachian mountains, I had to learn the pillars of Islam, the tenets of Buddhism, Hinduism, and D/Taoism, and some others both in a High School World History class and again in a couple of classes at college (still in the mountains of NC -- yes, there are colleges here). Oddly enough, Christianity was barely mentioned. I just assumed the instructors/writers of the textbooks figured we knew it. :)
As far as the OP, IN MY PERSONAL OPINION, and I am what many of you consider a "rightwing conservative religious [noun of choice here]," the church in question was, at best, shortsighted to include the "free salvation" message. It is "cute" and "gimmicky" but I have found with the non-Christians that I deal with and have relationships with that "cute and gimmicky" are NOT attractive, in any form or fashion. My relationship with Christ is not cute and gimmicky, so I should hope their message of salvation isn't either, and they shouldn't have to resort to that. :( And I also feel the same way about a lot of the not so punny messages on church marquees. But, that is another rant for another forum on another website.
Unfortunately, it is entirely possible that the church in question may feel "vindicated" in some form if a lot of people complain about it. They can *claim* persecution, when in fact they kinda brought it on themselves. (OT -- Christians in America have no idea what persecution really is, IMO).
Message edited by author 2007-10-30 11:40:50. |
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10/30/2007 11:33:54 AM · #132 |
| ... oh, how I wish I had the time to join in this thread ... stupid job! |
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10/30/2007 11:42:45 AM · #133 |
Originally posted by ajdelaware:
I wish Darwin was still alive, so we could settle all this once and for all.
SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNNNNNDAY!
LIVE AT THE COLLISEUM.
ONE NIGHT ONLY.
CHARLES "THE EVOLUTION REVOLUTION" DARWIN
VERSUS
JESUS "TALK TO THE HAND IM THE SON OF MAN" CHRIST
FIGHT TO THE FINISH!
2 2 2 2 2 MEN WILL COME IN...ONLY ONE WILL LEAVE STANDING UP!
$15 FOR THE WHOLE SEAT........BUT YOULL ONLY NEED THE EDGE!
(ALL PROCEEDS TO BENEFIT REVEREND AL SHARPTONS SCHOOL FOR BAFFLERS OF BULLSHIT) |
Were Darwin still alive, he'd probably believe his nonsense. But once he died, he saw the truth.
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10/30/2007 11:44:27 AM · #134 |
Originally posted by muckpond:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
So, if you choose not to be preached to, then it is incumbent upon YOU to leave from where preaching is occurring -- not to silence the preacher. That's the same backwards thinking where people thing they have a right NOT to be offended. |
so, in this instance, i'm expected to leave a publicly-funded school? one that i pay taxes for and should have a voice in the direction of? because i CHOOSE not to hear religious arguments?
this right here is the crux of the separation of church and state argument. the state is for EVERYBODY. the church is for people who CHOOSE to be there. like it or not, the public school is a STATE institution. please keep your religious activities and opinions to your own organizations.
again, i'm all for intellectual, mutually-beneficial debate. simply stating that "this is the truth. that is a lie." is not intellectual and not beneficial. it's not even debate.
this is why we can't have a rational discussion about religion in public schools or in most social contexts. people get totally offended when they're not agreed with and they refuse to hear the other point of view. |
In this case, no one was preached at. Just throw away the flyer. Until you show where they rejected sending out other religious fliers, there is no wrong being done.
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10/30/2007 11:46:57 AM · #135 |
Originally posted by karmat:
totally off topic, but it is an oversimplification to say God and Allah are one in the same. The Muslims I've talked to, read, heard, etc and the Christians I've talked to, read, and heard, don't believe this. It is good wordplay to smooth ruffled feathers, but the two are very much NOT the same. |
i did say that it was a horrendous oversimplification. but from what i've been taught and read and studied, i respectfully disagree with your opinion.
i would love to have a rational conversation about it with an interested group of people. i would like to hear why other think the way they do. i don't think a rant thread is the place to do it.
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10/30/2007 11:48:55 AM · #136 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by muckpond:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
So, if you choose not to be preached to, then it is incumbent upon YOU to leave from where preaching is occurring -- not to silence the preacher. That's the same backwards thinking where people thing they have a right NOT to be offended. |
so, in this instance, i'm expected to leave a publicly-funded school? one that i pay taxes for and should have a voice in the direction of? because i CHOOSE not to hear religious arguments?
this right here is the crux of the separation of church and state argument. the state is for EVERYBODY. the church is for people who CHOOSE to be there. like it or not, the public school is a STATE institution. please keep your religious activities and opinions to your own organizations.
again, i'm all for intellectual, mutually-beneficial debate. simply stating that "this is the truth. that is a lie." is not intellectual and not beneficial. it's not even debate.
this is why we can't have a rational discussion about religion in public schools or in most social contexts. people get totally offended when they're not agreed with and they refuse to hear the other point of view. |
In this case, no one was preached at. Just throw away the flyer. Until you show where they rejected sending out other religious fliers, there is no wrong being done. |
i believe that if the flyer had a non-christian message (be it religious, racial, or otherwise), it WOULD have been rejected. no, there's no proof that they've rejected other flyers. but the fact that they accepted this one is still astounding to me.
however, it's obvious that you are never going to see any point of view but your own, so there's no further need to discuss the topic with you.
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10/30/2007 11:48:59 AM · #137 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Sure I understand -- that is the CREATION OF A LAW -- which may or may not be unconstitutional. A local government putting out a nativity scene is not creating a law and therefore there is nothing to question. A public school teacher reading a Bible at her desk is doing nothing wrong either. |
Unless she is reading it out loud.
Then it becomes a problem. A BIG problem. Especially if she adds after her speech, "BECAUSE GOD IS YOUR ONLY SALVATION!" That is her belief, she cannot back it up with hard evidence. SCOPES TRIAL is the reason they don't teach either. There is no evidence either way.
My kids go to church. I choose not to. I have no problem with religion personally. BUT, I do get a little tired of people always shoving religious booklets into my face when I go somewhere. Doom and gloom and you are going to go to hell if you don't repent RIGHT NOW... blah blah blah... I would frikkin blow up if I started getting it from the school too.
Why the heck aren't these people concerned about saving the planet and trees that God made? They go print 5,000 little booklets, kill 20,000 trees to get the paper, and hand them out to people that chuck them in the trash because they have read them a thousand times and are TIRED OF HEARING IT.
We have a right to our beliefs too. We also aren't out there trying to convert you to our way of thinking.
It makes me want to run out and make a big announcement over a speaker, SAVE A TREE!!! GO TO HELL!!
AND, I will give 3 comments to the person who can tell me what the TRUE religious majority in the USA is :) {hint: it is NOT Christianity}
ETA: info on the scopes trial can be found here:
along with a linky if you aren't familiar
Message edited by author 2007-10-30 11:51:20. |
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10/30/2007 11:50:14 AM · #138 |
Originally posted by muckpond:
Originally posted by karmat:
totally off topic, but it is an oversimplification to say God and Allah are one in the same. The Muslims I've talked to, read, heard, etc and the Christians I've talked to, read, and heard, don't believe this. It is good wordplay to smooth ruffled feathers, but the two are very much NOT the same. |
i did say that it was a horrendous oversimplification. but from what i've been taught and read and studied, i respectfully disagree with your opinion.
i would love to have a rational conversation about it with an interested group of people. i would like to hear why other think the way they do. i don't think a rant thread is the place to do it. |
I would agree they started the same, but the Muslims have a great distorted view of God. If Arabs came from Ishmael, then the Arab God is the same as the Christian/Jewish God. Islam started later with Muhammed going crazy in a cave.
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10/30/2007 11:50:17 AM · #139 |
Originally posted by TCGuru:
AND, I will give 3 comments to the person who can tell me what the TRUE religious majority in the USA is :) {hint: it is NOT Christianity} |
the church of QVC? sears? wal-mart? :P
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10/30/2007 11:51:01 AM · #140 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by muckpond:
Originally posted by karmat:
totally off topic, but it is an oversimplification to say God and Allah are one in the same. The Muslims I've talked to, read, heard, etc and the Christians I've talked to, read, and heard, don't believe this. It is good wordplay to smooth ruffled feathers, but the two are very much NOT the same. |
i did say that it was a horrendous oversimplification. but from what i've been taught and read and studied, i respectfully disagree with your opinion.
i would love to have a rational conversation about it with an interested group of people. i would like to hear why other think the way they do. i don't think a rant thread is the place to do it. |
I would agree they started the same, but the Muslims have a great distorted view of God. If Arabs came from Ishmael, then the Arab God is the same as the Christian/Jewish God. Islam started later with Muhammed going crazy in a cave. |
it is exactly that kind of language that tells me the words "rational discussion" are not part of your vocabulary.
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10/30/2007 11:51:04 AM · #141 |
Originally posted by TCGuru:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Sure I understand -- that is the CREATION OF A LAW -- which may or may not be unconstitutional. A local government putting out a nativity scene is not creating a law and therefore there is nothing to question. A public school teacher reading a Bible at her desk is doing nothing wrong either. |
Unless she is reading it out loud.
Then it becomes a problem. A BIG problem. Especially if she adds after her speech, "BECAUSE GOD IS YOUR ONLY SALVATION!" That is her belief, she cannot back it up with hard evidence. SCOPES TRIAL is the reason they don't teach either. There is no evidence either way.
My kids go to church. I choose not to. I have no problem with religion personally. BUT, I do get a little tired of people always shoving religious booklets into my face when I go somewhere. Doom and gloom and you are going to go to hell if you don't repent RIGHT NOW... blah blah blah... I would frikkin blow up if I started getting it from the school too.
Why the heck aren't these people concerned about saving the planet and trees that God made? They go print 5,000 little booklets, kill 20,000 trees to get the paper, and hand them out to people that chuck them in the trash because they have read them a thousand times and are TIRED OF HEARING IT.
We have a right to our beliefs too. We also aren't out there trying to convert you to our way of thinking.
It makes me want to run out and make a big announcement over a speaker, SAVE A TREE!!! GO TO HELL!!
AND, I will give 3 comments to the person who can tell me what the TRUE religious majority in the USA is :) {hint: it is NOT Christianity} |
Oddly, the myth of Evolution is still taught, but Creation is not.
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10/30/2007 11:51:45 AM · #142 |
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10/30/2007 11:52:01 AM · #143 |
Originally posted by muckpond:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by muckpond:
Originally posted by karmat:
totally off topic, but it is an oversimplification to say God and Allah are one in the same. The Muslims I've talked to, read, heard, etc and the Christians I've talked to, read, and heard, don't believe this. It is good wordplay to smooth ruffled feathers, but the two are very much NOT the same. |
i did say that it was a horrendous oversimplification. but from what i've been taught and read and studied, i respectfully disagree with your opinion.
i would love to have a rational conversation about it with an interested group of people. i would like to hear why other think the way they do. i don't think a rant thread is the place to do it. |
I would agree they started the same, but the Muslims have a great distorted view of God. If Arabs came from Ishmael, then the Arab God is the same as the Christian/Jewish God. Islam started later with Muhammed going crazy in a cave. |
it is exactly that kind of language that tells me the words "rational discussion" are not part of your vocabulary. |
And it's insulting comments like that that make me fear for the quality of intelligence of the Site Council.
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10/30/2007 11:52:04 AM · #144 |
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10/30/2007 11:52:21 AM · #145 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Oddly, the myth of Evolution is still taught, but Creation is not. |
No, it's not. |
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10/30/2007 11:53:38 AM · #146 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by muckpond:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by muckpond:
Originally posted by karmat:
totally off topic, but it is an oversimplification to say God and Allah are one in the same. The Muslims I've talked to, read, heard, etc and the Christians I've talked to, read, and heard, don't believe this. It is good wordplay to smooth ruffled feathers, but the two are very much NOT the same. |
i did say that it was a horrendous oversimplification. but from what i've been taught and read and studied, i respectfully disagree with your opinion.
i would love to have a rational conversation about it with an interested group of people. i would like to hear why other think the way they do. i don't think a rant thread is the place to do it. |
I would agree they started the same, but the Muslims have a great distorted view of God. If Arabs came from Ishmael, then the Arab God is the same as the Christian/Jewish God. Islam started later with Muhammed going crazy in a cave. |
it is exactly that kind of language that tells me the words "rational discussion" are not part of your vocabulary. |
And it's insulting comments like that that make me fear for the quality of intelligence of the Site Council. |
so now you're not only dissatisfied with my belief system, but my intellectual level as well?
edited to add: no fewer than 3 SC members have been in here and have pretty much been on "your side" of the argument. why do you feel the need to denigrate all of us just because you disagree with me?
Message edited by author 2007-10-30 11:54:25.
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10/30/2007 11:53:45 AM · #147 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
And it's insulting comments like that that make me fear for the quality of intelligence of the Site Council. |
Uncalled for. |
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10/30/2007 11:54:32 AM · #148 |
Originally posted by muckpond:
the church of QVC? sears? wal-mart? :P |
No, No, and errr, NO LOLOL
Originally posted by BAMartin:
Protestant |
Nope
Message edited by author 2007-10-30 11:55:08. |
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10/30/2007 12:01:37 PM · #149 |
 HawkeyeLonewolf I'm sorry to say but you come across as arrogant, single-minded and insulting here. Comments like the one you made below, "makes me fear for the quality of intelligence on the site council" are a cheap shot and should have no part in an intellectual discussion.
Many people in this thread have professed tolerance for Christian beliefs, but you don't seem to have tolerance for anyone else's beliefs. I'll bet you would be pretty insulted if someone approached you with a tract explaining why your salvation hinged upon becoming an atheist. Yet you seem to think it is the responsibility of the person approached, not the approachee, to leave? Somehow I doubt you would feel the same if you were approached by something you found offensive. I live in a nation that is supposed to be tolerant of all religious beliefs - and non-belief, if I chose. I tolerate your beliefs, and I don't call you stupid or belittle your intelligence. Please extend the same courtesy to those who don't share your beliefs. |
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10/30/2007 12:10:09 PM · #150 |
Originally posted by noraneko:
HawkeyeLonewolf I'm sorry to say but you come across as arrogant, single-minded and insulting here. Comments like the one you made below, "makes me fear for the quality of intelligence on the site council" are a cheap shot and should have no part in an intellectual discussion.
Many people in this thread have professed tolerance for Christian beliefs, but you don't seem to have tolerance for anyone else's beliefs. I'll bet you would be pretty insulted if someone approached you with a tract explaining why your salvation hinged upon becoming an atheist. Yet you seem to think it is the responsibility of the person approached, not the approachee, to leave? Somehow I doubt you would feel the same if you were approached by something you found offensive. I live in a nation that is supposed to be tolerant of all religious beliefs - and non-belief, if I chose. I tolerate your beliefs, and I don't call you stupid or belittle your intelligence. Please extend the same courtesy to those who don't share your beliefs. |
Jump to the aid of a SC member and ignore the facts. I am tolerant of other beliefs and have stated so. I admit I am intolerant of people attacking MY beliefs, which is what was going on. I suggest you pay attention more closely.
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