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10/29/2007 10:47:20 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
2. The Amendment prohibits CONGRESS (nothing else, no other government entity) from creating a law ESTABLISHING a religion. Period. |
The 14th Amendment, through the doctrine of "incorporation", extends that prohibition to state governments as well I believe.
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10/29/2007 10:52:42 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by L2:
Originally posted by rossbilly:
I suppose Satanism wasn't THE best example but still... it is classified as a religion. What about paganism, wicca, 'mother nature', etc. {insert ANY religion you find objectionable & re-read the statement please} |
Isn't that kind of like saying "I don't like those people, therefore, I don't want to go to their party, and also, I don't think anyone else should go either? So I'm going to find a law and twist it so that they can't have their party at all, cause that'll teach them not to believe in something different than me?" |
I think the point is, why is a public school advertising for a religion. Who cares if it's a party or a bible study session.
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10/29/2007 10:56:56 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by L2:
Originally posted by rossbilly:
I suppose Satanism wasn't THE best example but still... it is classified as a religion. What about paganism, wicca, 'mother nature', etc. {insert ANY religion you find objectionable & re-read the statement please} |
Isn't that kind of like saying "I don't like those people, therefore, I don't want to go to their party, and also, I don't think anyone else should go either? So I'm going to find a law and twist it so that they can't have their party at all, cause that'll teach them not to believe in something different than me?" |
No Laurie, that is precisely NOT what I'm suggesting - and exactly why I am disagreeing with you. I sincerely hope you will take the time to reconsider your opinion of me.
As I've already stated, I do NOT want to stop ANYONE from practicing their own beliefs, and I even seek out persons of different beliefs WHILE SETTING ASIDE OUR DIFFERENCES FOR THE GOOD OF OTHERS!!!
I not only encourage my children to attend local services, but frequently SEEK persons of differing beliefs in order to LEARN from them - not to argue! Heck, in the office I work are 5 people, EACH with our own very different views on a supreme being. Yet we manage to calmly discuss our differences AND similarities, in the hopes of learning from one another.
Again, this is about fairness to ALL involved, not just the majority.
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10/29/2007 10:57:55 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by L2:
Originally posted by rossbilly:
I suppose Satanism wasn't THE best example but still... it is classified as a religion. What about paganism, wicca, 'mother nature', etc. {insert ANY religion you find objectionable & re-read the statement please} |
Isn't that kind of like saying "I don't like those people, therefore, I don't want to go to their party, and also, I don't think anyone else should go either? So I'm going to find a law and twist it so that they can't have their party at all, cause that'll teach them not to believe in something different than me?" |
I think the point is, why is a public school advertising for a religion. Who cares if it's a party or a bible study session. |
The difference between a party and a study session should be obvious, no? |
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10/29/2007 10:59:26 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by L2:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by L2:
Originally posted by rossbilly:
I suppose Satanism wasn't THE best example but still... it is classified as a religion. What about paganism, wicca, 'mother nature', etc. {insert ANY religion you find objectionable & re-read the statement please} |
Isn't that kind of like saying "I don't like those people, therefore, I don't want to go to their party, and also, I don't think anyone else should go either? So I'm going to find a law and twist it so that they can't have their party at all, cause that'll teach them not to believe in something different than me?" |
I think the point is, why is a public school advertising for a religion. Who cares if it's a party or a bible study session. |
The difference between a party and a study session should be obvious, no? |
Why should the school advertise either?
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10/29/2007 11:00:58 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by Hye5:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
2. The Amendment prohibits CONGRESS (nothing else, no other government entity) from creating a law ESTABLISHING a religion. Period. |
The 14th Amendment, through the doctrine of "incorporation", extends that prohibition to state governments as well I believe. |
Which again, would be the state congress making laws. If the school wants to, then so be it (and religious instruction WAS included during the time of this country's founding, so CLEARLY they were not against it). Nope, this very clear law protecting religion from the state has been misused and abused by do-badders who want to prevent the rampant spread of morality and values.
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10/29/2007 11:04:57 PM · #32 |
It's really very simple: it's not about the party, it's about the proselytizing. Rossbilly wouldn't mind if they flyer had said "Free for all" and left it at that; it's the "Like God's salvation" that has him a little torqued.
Look at it this way: how would you feel if the take-home packet included tracts from various different religions promoting their particular points of view? Isn't that crossing the line?
If anyone's at fault here, it's whoever laid out that flyer. I'd think simply heading over to that church and pointing out to the pastor that he'd crossed a line might be productive here. And, for that matter, maybe point out to the school admin that THEY might have done a better job of proofing and asked that the reference to salvation be deleted.
It's simple enough, and the problem ceases to exist...
R.
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10/29/2007 11:06:53 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by L2:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
I think the point is, why is a public school advertising for a religion. Who cares if it's a party or a bible study session. |
The difference between a party and a study session should be obvious, no? |
I do believe you might have missed the basic premise of the argument made by LoudDog in this instance... but I am certain he is quite capable of articulating his views and will therefore desist from further comment.
Ray |
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10/29/2007 11:08:24 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by L2:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by L2:
Originally posted by rossbilly:
I suppose Satanism wasn't THE best example but still... it is classified as a religion. What about paganism, wicca, 'mother nature', etc. {insert ANY religion you find objectionable & re-read the statement please} |
Isn't that kind of like saying "I don't like those people, therefore, I don't want to go to their party, and also, I don't think anyone else should go either? So I'm going to find a law and twist it so that they can't have their party at all, cause that'll teach them not to believe in something different than me?" |
I think the point is, why is a public school advertising for a religion. Who cares if it's a party or a bible study session. |
The difference between a party and a study session should be obvious, no? |
Why should the school advertise either? |
I fear you are being deliberately obtuse. Either the school can advertise whatever (including Girl Scout Cookies) or it cannot. You can't (or shouldn't) claim "OMG Religion- NO!!!!" just because you like cookies better than God.
I love cookies, and God. I also love to be invited to parties; however, if I don't want to go to a party, I allow myself to just say, "No thanks, maybe next time."
What I don't love is when people tell me I can't learn of a party that I might want to go to, because they don't want see invitations to anything. |
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10/29/2007 11:11:18 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by L2:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
I think the point is, why is a public school advertising for a religion. Who cares if it's a party or a bible study session. |
The difference between a party and a study session should be obvious, no? |
I do believe you might have missed the basic premise of the argument made by LoudDog in this instance... but I am certain he is quite capable of articulating his views and will therefore desist from further comment.
Ray |
I didn't miss a thing, toots. I'm just disagreeing. Unless a difference of opinion is outlawed along with the right to be offended by someone else's opinion of what's acceptable? Oh wait, that's the same. Never mind. :) |
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10/29/2007 11:15:47 PM · #36 |
Though I can understand HOW you might misread so many posts, I cannot figure out WHY you continue to do it on purpose... again, and again.
Besides, who says I like cookies more than God? I get the feeling God could exist without me OR the cookies, but the inverse wouldn't work too well.
STOP INTONING ANTI-RELIGION ON MY PART AND FIND SOMEWHERE ELSE TO GRIND YOUR AXE!!!
If you can't manage that, at least read the very first post repeatedly, until you realize I don't have a problem with church sponsored events OR documents about them.
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10/29/2007 11:16:09 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by Hye5:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
2. The Amendment prohibits CONGRESS (nothing else, no other government entity) from creating a law ESTABLISHING a religion. Period. |
The 14th Amendment, through the doctrine of "incorporation", extends that prohibition to state governments as well I believe. |
Which again, would be the state congress making laws. If the school wants to, then so be it (and religious instruction WAS included during the time of this country's founding, so CLEARLY they were not against it). Nope, this very clear law protecting religion from the state has been misused and abused by do-badders who want to prevent the rampant spread of morality and values. |
I am not certain, but I believe the 14th Amendment extends to State and local governments (which in all likelihood includes a school district as a quasi public agency). However, there is a difference between establishing a religion and informing parents of community events (whether or not they are a religious nature). This situation is not unlike a school extending use of facilities for community use, whether it is the Boy Scouts or a local bible/church group. The school is simply advising parents of community events. The fact that a religious group rather than another community group chose to take advantage of that opportunity does not run afoul of the First Amendment.
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10/29/2007 11:16:16 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by L2:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by L2:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
I think the point is, why is a public school advertising for a religion. Who cares if it's a party or a bible study session. |
The difference between a party and a study session should be obvious, no? |
I do believe you might have missed the basic premise of the argument made by LoudDog in this instance... but I am certain he is quite capable of articulating his views and will therefore desist from further comment.
Ray |
I didn't miss a thing, toots. I'm just disagreeing. Unless a difference of opinion is outlawed along with the right to be offended by someone else's opinion of what's acceptable? Oh wait, that's the same. Never mind. :) |
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10/29/2007 11:18:20 PM · #39 |
...Some things are better left unsaid.
Ray
Message edited by author 2007-10-29 23:21:56. |
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10/29/2007 11:26:45 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by L2:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by L2:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by L2:
Originally posted by rossbilly:
I suppose Satanism wasn't THE best example but still... it is classified as a religion. What about paganism, wicca, 'mother nature', etc. {insert ANY religion you find objectionable & re-read the statement please} |
Isn't that kind of like saying "I don't like those people, therefore, I don't want to go to their party, and also, I don't think anyone else should go either? So I'm going to find a law and twist it so that they can't have their party at all, cause that'll teach them not to believe in something different than me?" |
I think the point is, why is a public school advertising for a religion. Who cares if it's a party or a bible study session. |
The difference between a party and a study session should be obvious, no? |
Why should the school advertise either? |
I fear you are being deliberately obtuse. Either the school can advertise whatever (including Girl Scout Cookies) or it cannot. You can't (or shouldn't) claim "OMG Religion- NO!!!!" just because you like cookies better than God.
I love cookies, and God. I also love to be invited to parties; however, if I don't want to go to a party, I allow myself to just say, "No thanks, maybe next time."
What I don't love is when people tell me I can't learn of a party that I might want to go to, because they don't want see invitations to anything. |
Does the school advertise other local businesses? Does the school charge for this advertising? Will they advertise for any and all churches? Will they advertise for any other non-profit organization? Will they advertise a gay and lesbian party? If your kid was invited to that would you just turn it down? Would the school advertise an atheist party? Would that offend you? How about a pro-choice or pro-life rally? If you want your kids to come home with religious stuff, send them to a religious school.
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10/29/2007 11:28:48 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by L2:
I fear you are being deliberately obtuse. Either the school can advertise whatever (including Girl Scout Cookies) or it cannot. You can't (or shouldn't) claim "OMG Religion- NO!!!!" just because you like cookies better than God.
I love cookies, and God. I also love to be invited to parties; however, if I don't want to go to a party, I allow myself to just say, "No thanks, maybe next time."
What I don't love is when people tell me I can't learn of a party that I might want to go to, because they don't want see invitations to anything. |
Laurie, it isn't the invitation, it's the proselytizing! Can't you see that? Can't you address that aspect of the argument?
R.
Message edited by author 2007-10-29 23:29:00.
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10/29/2007 11:30:22 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by rossbilly:
Though I can understand HOW you might misread so many posts, I cannot figure out WHY you continue to do it on purpose... again, and again.
Besides, who says I like cookies more than God? I get the feeling God could exist without me OR the cookies, but the inverse wouldn't work too well.
STOP INTONING ANTI-RELIGION ON MY PART AND FIND SOMEWHERE ELSE TO GRIND YOUR AXE!!!
If you can't manage that, at least read the very first post repeatedly, until you realize I don't have a problem with church sponsored events OR documents about them. |
Well, then, you'll just have to forgive me. In your original post you wanted to call the school and complain about a party invitation sponsored by a church, yet now you have "no problem with church-sponsored events or documents about them?
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10/29/2007 11:32:28 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by L2:
Originally posted by rossbilly:
Though I can understand HOW you might misread so many posts, I cannot figure out WHY you continue to do it on purpose... again, and again.
Besides, who says I like cookies more than God? I get the feeling God could exist without me OR the cookies, but the inverse wouldn't work too well.
STOP INTONING ANTI-RELIGION ON MY PART AND FIND SOMEWHERE ELSE TO GRIND YOUR AXE!!!
If you can't manage that, at least read the very first post repeatedly, until you realize I don't have a problem with church sponsored events OR documents about them. |
Well, then, you'll just have to forgive me. In your original post you wanted to call the school and complain about a party invitation sponsored by a church, yet now you have "no problem with church-sponsored events or documents about them? |
From his original post:
Several papers came home with our 6 year old daughter today:
1. Girl Scout registration papers. (ok)
2. Local Church accepting requests for children needing coats. (also ok)
3. Weekly 'whats happening' paper says NO costumes for Halloween. (disappointed kids, but acceptable)
4. Glossy (professional!) insert for Halloween festivities held by local church. (still ok, though I don't quite understand what they mean by "Friendly costumes welcome")
5. Plain paper ad, proclaiming "GOD SPOT Block Party" & "Everything is FREE! (Just like God's Salvation)". {{{NOT OK!!!}}}
Note that 2 and 4 are churcyh sponsored events and he has no problem with them.
R.
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10/29/2007 11:32:29 PM · #44 |
Laurie, would you PLEASE see robert's last two posts???
Message edited by author 2007-10-29 23:33:54.
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10/29/2007 11:35:54 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Does the school advertise other local businesses? Does the school charge for this advertising? Will they advertise for any and all churches? Will they advertise for any other non-profit organization? Will they advertise a gay and lesbian party? If your kid was invited to that would you just turn it down? Would the school advertise an atheist party? Would that offend you? How about a pro-choice or pro-life rally? If you want your kids to come home with religious stuff, send them to a religious school. |
This all assumes facts not in evidence. At question was a single and simple party invitation; whether the school would include a flyer about anything else is irrelevant.
Personally, I am rarely offended when people invite me to parties or to join clubs. I just evaluate whether or not I want to go/belong, and RSVP as appropriate.
There is no proof that this school is treating one group differently than another, and until there is, I fail to see what the big deal is. |
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10/29/2007 11:36:28 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by L2:
I fear you are being deliberately obtuse. Either the school can advertise whatever (including Girl Scout Cookies) or it cannot. You can't (or shouldn't) claim "OMG Religion- NO!!!!" just because you like cookies better than God.
I love cookies, and God. I also love to be invited to parties; however, if I don't want to go to a party, I allow myself to just say, "No thanks, maybe next time."
What I don't love is when people tell me I can't learn of a party that I might want to go to, because they don't want see invitations to anything. |
Laurie, it isn't the invitation, it's the proselytizing! Can't you see that? Can't you address that aspect of the argument?
R. |
Wouldn't the girls scouts registration papers be guilty of this as well? |
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10/29/2007 11:41:07 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by rossbilly:
Laurie, would you PLEASE see robert's last two posts??? |
OK, just settle down. I'm not accusing you (or anyone else) of being anti-religious.
It's just my opinion that you are misplacing some aggression, that's all. There's no reason to get bent out of shape about what is, at the end of the day, a party invitation.
Think of it like this: what if the invite were to a Red Sox World Series win party? But, you don't like the Red Sox, you like the Cubs. And the party invite said "Red Sox, the best team ever!!!"
You don't have to agree or disagree with the mind-set of the host, you just have to choose whether you make a stink about it. |
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10/29/2007 11:49:23 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by L2:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Does the school advertise other local businesses? Does the school charge for this advertising? Will they advertise for any and all churches? Will they advertise for any other non-profit organization? Will they advertise a gay and lesbian party? If your kid was invited to that would you just turn it down? Would the school advertise an atheist party? Would that offend you? How about a pro-choice or pro-life rally? If you want your kids to come home with religious stuff, send them to a religious school. |
This all assumes facts not in evidence. At question was a single and simple party invitation; whether the school would include a flyer about anything else is irrelevant.
Personally, I am rarely offended when people invite me to parties or to join clubs. I just evaluate whether or not I want to go/belong, and RSVP as appropriate.
There is no proof that this school is treating one group differently than another, and until there is, I fail to see what the big deal is. |
I don't think we are on the same wave length here. My last words as I'm going to bed: the school should not use my 6 year old to peddle advertising for anything!!! Religious party, haunted hayride sponsored by a satanist group or a sale at Bob's Hardware store. If it's not a school event they shouldn't be pushing it.
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10/29/2007 11:55:28 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by L2:
There's no reason to get bent out of shape about what is, at the end of the day, a party invitation. |
Ah ha, the source of our disagreement. I consider it advertising as the church is throwing the party to spread their message and increase membership, on top of having fun. However, will they send the 6 year okds home with an invite to my haloween blow out house party with 6 kegs and a prize for the sexiest costume?
now I'm going to bed...
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10/30/2007 12:00:22 AM · #50 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by L2:
There's no reason to get bent out of shape about what is, at the end of the day, a party invitation. |
Ah ha, the source of our disagreement. I consider it advertising as the church is throwing the party to spread their message and increase membership, on top of having fun. However, will they send the 6 year okds home with an invite to my haloween blow out house party with 6 kegs and a prize for the sexiest costume?
now I'm going to bed... |
Probably NOT... but do send me an invitation as I will be in Seattle for the GTG and I love to party.
Ray |
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