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10/20/2007 05:42:56 AM · #26 |
Ok, let's assume the "DNMC Nazi" picture had been made for a challenge called "outrage".
My multiple choice list would then be (for example):
[ ] Sunset
[ ] Ducky
[ ] Outrage
[ ] By the seaside
[ ] Candy
I'm pretty sure most people would go for "Outrage". So the picture passes the test.
In the test I propose, you try to find other options that are as far away as possible from the actual challenge, so that almost anyone would make the right choice. Some of you seem to have misunderstood this and think I suggest one should be able to find the right challenge among different titles that would perfectly fit the picture. This is not what I meant.
This whole thing is not that big of an issue for me. It's just that I find voting fun when the pictures are beautiful, interesting, creative, fascinating, etc. I almost always vote on all entries in a challenge. However, if I ever stop voting, it's because of a few uninteresting DNMC images in a row. I find this frustrating.
I already hear some of you say "Well, what's the problem? Just vote accordingly!" The problem is that by submitting DNMC entries you do a disservice to everyone:
- To yourself, because your picture does not get the rating it deserves (i.e. which it could have gotten in a free study, for example). You lower your overall score and get frustrated by the DNMC comments.
- To the voters, because the process gets more frustrating for them.
- To the other photographers participating in the challenge, because they get less votes and comments.
This site is about challenges, about trying to take a good or even the best picture for a given topic. It's a *challenge*, baby! So try and do well. If you don't have a picture that fits the challenge and you think might do well, don't just submit anything. Wait for the next challenge. And if you'd just like to share your images and get feedback on the technique, upload them to your portfolio or to Flickr, for example.
If we had less of these pics in the challenges, there would be advantages for everyone:
- To yourself, because you can concentrate on and exhibit your best shots.
- To the voters, because voting becomes more interesting and fun. It takes less time, which prevents people from giving up too early and allows them to spend more time on individual pictures.
- To the other photographers in the challenge, because they get more votes and more comments.
Message edited by author 2007-10-20 05:52:19. |
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10/20/2007 06:59:46 AM · #27 |
If we removed the DNMC photos then we have nothing to bitch about and would have to waste our valuable time searching for a new subject to bitch about. ;P
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10/20/2007 10:07:04 AM · #28 |
I understand where the OP is coming from, although I don't agree with the suggestion. I do think these discussions should remain vague and take place after the voting of the image in question.
At what point do these threads cross the line about discussing individual challenge entries? Although I don't know which image is being referred to, one does come to mind. Therefore, this discussion could be interpreted as interference in the voting process.
If we are going to talk about rules, we should first honor the ones that exist.
However, nice use of woodies to distract  Art Roflmao! Do you have a hypnotist woody to make us forget that we read this thread?;)
Message edited by author 2007-10-24 10:15:03. |
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10/20/2007 11:33:42 AM · #29 |
Originally posted by jonejess:
You read the shirt? Damn, there goes my chance to take advantage of your illiteracy.
I'm going to cast the bait out again. |
De rien mon ami... et bonne chance avec votre attrape nigaud. :O)
Ray |
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10/20/2007 12:13:50 PM · #30 |
This thread is not about a specific challenge entry. It's about something I find frustrating in almost every challenge and which I think leads to people getting less votes and less comments. I've seen several members complain about the low number of votes/comments they got on their submissions, and I'm suggesting a way to improve the situation.
I'm not suggesting any additional rules. I'm just asking users to think twice before submitting an image that is a very, very "creative" interpretation of the challenge. I have the impression that many entries were not taken specifically for the challenge, but the user just went through the pictures they had taken during the challenge period and chose one they thought came close.
Originally posted by David Ey:
[...] We all know how to meet the challenge and don't need instructions on how to do so. Sometimes we choose not to. :) |
You choose not to meet the challenge? What is your goal then? And why do you do this here? Wouldn't you be frustrated if you went to a football game and the players sat down and started playing chess instead, because they wanted to be creative and do something different? ;-)
Message edited by author 2007-10-20 12:18:46. |
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10/20/2007 12:26:10 PM · #31 |
Samuel,
your example with the game holds if people start posting illustrations or movies, a different medium. Even a photo that DNMC is still a photo, inside the medium.
The question I have is this: the description of the After the game challenge says "photograph a sporting venue after the game is over and the players and people have gone home :-)". Now, how do I know that the players from the winning photo really went home and didn't go to a pub and celebrate?
OTOH, I'm one of the ppl that gets a lot of DNMC comments, so, sorry for making trouble. |
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10/20/2007 12:32:02 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
De rien mon ami... et bonne chance avec votre attrape nigaud. :O) |
You're welcome, my friend... and good luck with your nasty rash? |
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10/20/2007 12:33:44 PM · #33 |
If it were left to a committee to determine whether or not an image met the challenge, all of the same complaints would still exist. The dissatisfaction would just be levied at the committee instead of the individual. Top that off with a bunch of disgruntled submitters who feel their images were unfairly DQ'ed and you'll open up an ugly can of worms.
Where would you draw the line?
Under those proposed guidelines would you have considered this entry for a DQ, without knowing the backstory?
I expected it to get hammered, and it did. But I entered it as a final page to the story I told in the 30 Day Pet Portrait Challenge.
I agree that it's troublesome when others don't take the challenges seriously. But the idea of setting parameters for "who gets it" worries me more. It's a case of the cure being worse than the disease.
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10/20/2007 12:56:59 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by rox_rox:
Under those proposed guidelines would you have considered this entry for a DQ, without knowing the backstory?
I expected it to get hammered, and it did. But I entered it as a final page to the story I told in the 30 Day Pet Portrait Challenge. |
Roxanne, YOU are officially invited to join the Weirdo Club. :) |
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10/20/2007 12:59:07 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by _eug:
Roxanne, YOU are officially invited to join the Weirdo Club. :) |
Join? I have my own chapter. |
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10/20/2007 12:59:16 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by _eug:
Originally posted by rox_rox:
Under those proposed guidelines would you have considered this entry for a DQ, without knowing the backstory?
I expected it to get hammered, and it did. But I entered it as a final page to the story I told in the 30 Day Pet Portrait Challenge. |
Roxanne, YOU are officially invited to join the Weirdo Club. :) |
Dam, I've been trying to wrangle that invitation for months... |
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10/20/2007 01:38:51 PM · #37 |
Ohohoh, I'm starting to feel completely misunderstood... You're turning me into a DNMC nazi I'm really not... Please read my original post again to better understand what I mean (I should have explained it more clearly).
Originally posted by gjumi:
The question I have is this: the description of the After the game challenge says "photograph a sporting venue after the game is over and the players and people have gone home :-)". Now, how do I know that the players from the winning photo really went home and didn't go to a pub and celebrate? |
Come on, I never suggested to be so pedantic. The winning entries in that challenge fit it perfectly and they would all easily pass my suggested test, like this for example:
[ ] Rainbow
[ ] After the Game
[ ] Candy
[ ] My favorite pet
[ ] Old Cars
Originally posted by rox_rox:
Under those proposed guidelines would you have considered this entry for a DQ, without knowing the backstory? |
No, this picture is special, but it perfectly fits the challenge. It would also easily pass my proposed test:
[ ] Urban Landscape
[ ] AA Battery
[ ] Christmas
[ ] Pet Portrait
[ ] James Bond
Almost everyone would choose "Pet Portrait", I guess. So it's ok.
I'd like to show you want kind of entries I'm referring to, but as I understand it, one is not supposed to mention individual entries as negative examples.
And as I said, I'm not suggesting any new rules or procedures, I'm just asking people to perform a voluntary self-check before submitting their picture. ;-)
Message edited by author 2007-10-20 13:39:13. |
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10/20/2007 01:46:38 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by Sam94720:
And as I said, I'm not suggesting any new rules or procedures, I'm just asking people to perform a voluntary self-check before submitting their picture. ;-) |
I'd like to see that too. Of course, I'd also like them all to deposit $100 each into my paypal account. I think you'll get your wish first;^) |
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10/20/2007 09:05:12 PM · #39 |
Well Sammy, I entered the pic 'cause I wanted to, same as one of the SC members does, whose entries are "off the wall" 90% of the time and who scores right down at the bottom much of the time. It's our right.
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10/21/2007 08:47:36 AM · #40 |
David, of course you have the right to enter whatever image you'd like. I just think DPC would be way more fun, more interesting and would allow everyone to learn more if we had more entries like these (just a few random examples)
      
and less uninteresting DNMC entries like blurred snapshots of a drunk girl at a party. Do you agree?
If everyone submitted just anything because "they wanted to", DPC would be boring and I'd probably stop voting alltogether. However, if everyone submitted intriguing pictures like the examples above, I'd probably spend way more time here, vote on every single entry, write detailed comments, etc.
Which of the two extremes would you prefer? I hope the latter. Then let's try and work in this direction. |
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10/21/2007 09:53:53 AM · #41 |
This is kind of completely missing the point. MOST DPCers want to be in the first category, creating striking, on-topic images. The number of us who regularly march to the beat of a more obscure drummer is relatively small.
I can't for the life of me understand why you are getting so exercised about this...
R.
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10/21/2007 09:54:49 AM · #42 |
I d'know. Lets see the "blurred snapshot of a drunk girl at a party" picture.
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10/21/2007 10:26:40 AM · #43 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
I d'know. Lets see the "blurred snapshot of a drunk girl at a party" picture. |
Yup. I would take that photo over a splash of coffee or a wine glass in a studio any day of the week. |
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10/21/2007 10:34:49 AM · #44 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by David Ey:
I d'know. Lets see the "blurred snapshot of a drunk girl at a party" picture. |
Yup. I would take that photo over a splash of coffee or a wine glass in a studio any day of the week. |
Don't Be That Girl :) |
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10/21/2007 10:39:00 AM · #45 |
Sam,
It's wonderful that you take your photography seriously.
However, what you are asking is akin to expecting a doctoral dissertation on the first day of college.
Fortunately, that is not the spirit of this site; or many of us would not be here.
There is a learning and equipment curve that takes place in photography; and the examples you posted are at the right end of the curve.
Sadly, most of us don̢۪t have the circumstances or talent to reach the level of your examples and will linger somewhere on the upturn. It̢۪s nice that so many photographers have access to the things that help them create those beautiful images; unfortunately not everyone has talent, an arsenal of equipment, a place for any kind of studio, a photogenic environment, and is surrounded by beautiful, willing models. Frankly, I̢۪d be thrilled to have just a couple of those things.
Many people come here with a P&S and the misconception that they (the people) take good photos. And not everyone (present company included) arrives with the understanding that this is more than a snapshot competition.
If not for the patience and guidance of the good people here, I would still be taking blurry, noisy snaps of boring subject matter. Oh wait, I still do thatâ€Â¦ only now I’m aware of it:)
I understand your frustration and the best way to effect change is to vote and leave honest, helpful comments on the images you find offensive. Eventually those people will leave or improve; or you will grow more tolerant. I suggest the latter because there will always be a crop of new photographers here and not all of them will be serious.
Note: Edited for clarification.
Message edited by author 2007-10-21 11:13:48. |
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10/21/2007 02:03:19 PM · #46 |
Ok, I think I should probably stop, the misunderstandings are just getting bigger and bigger...
One last try (hopefully): I appreciate it enormously when people actually think about the challenge and take a picture specifically for the challenge (which is, as far as I understand it, the idea behind DPC)... The quality of the image and the skill of the photographer do not matter that much, we are all learning. What matters to me is that the photographer tried to take a good picture for the challenge and not just submitted anything.
In the recently completed challenge "Searching", I liked these pictures here, for example, because the photographers have obviously thought about the challenge and took their pictures specifically for this challenge:
    
As you can see, the quality and the scores of the pictures vary, but the photographers all took the time to think about the challenge. And this is what I think is important. The challenge also had a huge number of pictures of animals where only a title like "Searching for Dinner" made the connection to the challenge topic. I have to assume that most of these pictures were not taken with the challenge in mind.
(Edit to to prevent another misunderstanding: There were of course also pictures of animals that were obviously searching and this would also have been clear without the title, these for example:
 
They are totally ok.)
My theory is that if we had less pictures of this second kind and more pictures of the first kind (the examples above), everyone would be better off. There would be less entries in the challenges and thus more people would vote on all of them, they could spend more time per picture, leave more comments and the whole process would be more enjoyable. Does anyone not agree with this?
P.S.: Just because you asked, one of the blurry party snapshots (please don't make me go and find the rest):
Message edited by author 2007-10-21 14:11:18. |
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10/21/2007 02:15:48 PM · #47 |
sam, i understand your point, but it does seem to leave out varying interpretations of the topic. taking your most recent examples, this was my entry in the searching challenge:
i had a few comments saying it was DNMC, as it does not have someone obviously looking for something. however, i think subtlety is a vital ingredient in imagery. i took this with the challenge in mind, but it is not (as many of your examples are) set up for that particular challenge. it does seem as if you are saying that only photographs set up for that challenge are acceptable, and i think that's one area where many people have a problem with your statement.
Message edited by author 2007-10-21 14:19:37.
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10/21/2007 02:27:27 PM · #48 |
Christian, when I first saw your picture, I thought "What does this have to do with searching?". But then I read the title and I spotted the guy in the canoe/boat/whatever. And then I liked it a lot, because of the clear contrast between city and nature and the fitting title.
Those who didn't see the connection to the challenge topic probably didn't spend a lot of time looking at your picture. If there were less pictures in the challenge and less DNMCs, people wouldn't be so quick at calling something DNMC and continuing. They would assume that all pictures were taken with the challenge in mind and would take the time to understand them.
And no, I don't think only pictures set up for the challenge are acceptable. But if you didn't take a picture with the challenge in mind and cannot find one that fits the challenge, please don't just submit anything and use the title to make the connection to the challenge. That's all I'm asking for. ;-) |
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10/21/2007 02:46:56 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by Sam94720:
I have to assume that most of these pictures were not taken with the challenge in mind. |
How can you possibly know that, unless the photographer puts it in their notes (which you can't see during voting)?
In medical school they teach that to assume is to make an ASS/U/ME (that reads "an ass of you and me").
By all means, vote based on your assessment of the photo's connection to the challenge and its quality, but please don't attribute motivations to people for which you have only your own imagination as a basis.
If you must assume something, why not assume that each entry is the result of the photographer's best attempt at executing their interpretation of the challenge topic? |
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10/21/2007 05:19:00 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
If you must assume something, why not assume that each entry is the result of the photographer's best attempt at executing their interpretation of the challenge topic? |
So you assume that the party snapshot someone took and earned a 3.something score with is the very best they can do? I don't think so. I am confident that they can do a lot better.
Instead of entering with snapshots in three challenges, they should rather focus on one challenge and spend some more time on the picture they enter to live up to their potential. --> Benefits for everyone (as explained above)! |
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