| Author | Thread |
|
|
08/28/2007 05:13:21 PM · #1 |
Since this keeps coming up over and over and over and over and over and over again (type that five times fast) in scores thread after thread after thread after thread, let's just give it its own thread and leave it out of the scores threads.
Phew.
From another thread:
Originally posted by blindjustice:
It had been said in the past, much more eloquently than I could say it, that really one should not judge what meets the challenge or not,
because the person who took the picture could be smarter than you.
|
I think that's a pretty amazing statement. I agree that people should stretch themselves more than some seem to, and I try to do that myself. That's why the Voting Rules say that voters should "keep an open mind to other interpretations of the challenge topic."
But it's incredible to me that you think I shouldn't even consider whether the shot meets the challenge. A photo is a communication tool, and if you convey absolutely nothing I can even find a hint of that is related to the challenge, you've failed in your assignment. That's why the Voting Rules also say that voters should "consider the challenge topic when voting, and adjust your score accordingly."
Part of the, dare I say it, challenge, is to communicate the theme to a worldwide audience with a huge variety of cultures, languages, and societal norms. And part of the challenge as voters is to open our minds to other interpretations. But that's saying to stretch, not to ignore an utter lack of connection.
The intelligence and creativity of the photographer are as relevant to how I judge a photo as do our birth signs, most recent meals, or my house number.
|
|
|
|
08/28/2007 05:24:19 PM · #2 |
Originally posted by levyj413:
The intelligence and creativity of the photographer are as relevant to how I judge a photo as do our birth signs, most recent meals, or my house number. |
And yet, this statement seems as incredible as the one you objected to.
For example, this photo meets the challenge* explicitly and head-on, but scored terribly because people were simply unaware of that relationship, and only a couple of folks bothered to check it out and see that it did, indeed "MC" ... not that I expected anything else.
I'd like to think my breadth of knowledge and interpretive/creative ability are at least slightly more relevant to this photo than where you live ...
*" Show us something that recalls the work of this famous, late children's book author (Dr. Seuss)." |
|
|
|
08/28/2007 05:32:29 PM · #3 |
| Jeff, I agree with you wholeheartedly. That is part (only part) of the reason we are members here. To learn, to submit to challenges and to vote on challenges. It doesn't matter if the other person whose photo you are voting on agrees with you are not. It is only ONE vote. If other voters do not agree with him or you it will make little difference. That said, I believe that it is ridiculous for people to say, "I never give a vote below a 5 or 4." It may be my imagination, but it seems as if dating from the beginning of this year with the influx of a lot of new participants, that the quality of submittals and increased attempts to get photos past voters has increased. Finally, I would say that if you cannot meet the challenge, don't enter the challenge. I for one would have loved to enter the seascape challenge, but I did not have easy access to a sea, so I did not enter. |
|
|
|
08/28/2007 05:38:33 PM · #4 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
I'd like to think my breadth of knowledge and interpretive/creative ability are at least slightly more relevant to this photo than where you live ... |
Your intelligence and creativity are directly relevant to the image you create. But I don't know who you are when I'm voting. I meant they're irrelevant to my voting; all I know are the image, the title, and the challenge theme.
Your shot is a great example of something that, to me, works MUCH better when I can read your notes. I had no idea Seuss did political work, so to me, I would've been trying to figure out how that shot connected to what I did know (I didn't vote on your shot).
And surely you knew that most people wouldn't know.
At least, though, you titled it something relevant. As opposed to, say, a hummingbird and a flower, titled "Dinner" in a challenge titled "Paper."
Not everything works in the DPC format, and I think it's inappropriate to insist that I ignore the challenge on the assumption there's some legitimate connection.
Message edited by author 2007-08-28 17:40:34.
|
|
|
|
08/28/2007 05:47:24 PM · #5 |
If all this DNMC talk in the last few days is regarding the "Fill the frame" challenge, then I can understand the issues. I scanned through the entries and a lot do not meet the challenge. Its called "fill the frame", surely the basics cannot be that hard to understand. Theres a lot of people here know how fickle the voters are but they still try to push the boundaries, which is great, more power to them, but then they come whining that the voters are saying DNMC. The way I see it is
1. Stick to the challenge as tightly as possible and avoid the DNMC comments.
OR
2. Try to do something a bit different, and be prepared to get the DNMC comments, and the low votes that normally accompany them.
We are never going to change the voters way of thinking, thats a fact, so you can shoot for yourself and ignore the comments, or you can shoot to please the voters and avoid the heartache so many of you seem to experience that your clever piece of work is sorely misunderstood by Mick Average. |
|
|
|
08/28/2007 05:51:29 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by levyj413:
The intelligence and creativity of the photographer are as relevant to how I judge a photo as do our birth signs, most recent meals, or my house number. |
And yet, this statement seems as incredible as the one you objected to.
For example, this photo meets the challenge* explicitly and head-on, but scored terribly because people were simply unaware of that relationship, and only a couple of folks bothered to check it out and see that it did, indeed "MC" ... not that I expected anything else.
I'd like to think my breadth of knowledge and interpretive/creative ability are at least slightly more relevant to this photo than where you live ...
*" Show us something that recalls the work of this famous, late children's book author (Dr. Seuss)." |
I'd agree that this fits the challenge yet most voters wouldn't have recognized that. I think that's one of the precipices we navigate on this site. You don't want to do the same old everyday shot but if you go too far off the beaten path no one will follow you. I myself would have googled the reference however I think that when our voters are going through you have roughly 3 seconds to convince them of how your shot meets the challenge. (I'm curious how long an average user looks at a shot before voting).
On the other hand, I think that Out of the Box thinking should be acknowledged while people thinking in another box altogether should be padlocked and tossed into the river.
I guess that's one thing to acknowledge when we are voting. How much does the shot not meet the challenge? There are shots where its an obvious shoehorn where the submitter is just putting something in for the sake of entering. There are those entries that have absolutely nothing to do with the challenge. And there are those that took an entirely different viewpoint in their approach. I think that if you look at a shot and decide it DNMC then take a quick moment to decide what the submitters motivation was for submitting it. Were they actually trying to think out of the box? Was it a misinterpretation?
We have a scale of 1 to 10 to express how we feel about a submission. We have a comments box. The submitter can respond to our comments. Sometimes it doesn't hurt to ask: "What were you trying for here?"
Great ideas in our heads sometimes come out a little out of focus in the real world...
:)
|
|
|
|
08/28/2007 05:58:35 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
For example, this photo meets the challenge* explicitly and head-on, but scored terribly because people were simply unaware of that relationship,
|
With all Due respect GeneralE most of the comentators said that the focus was what lead them to a low vote.
Btw this site is a global comuntity so your voters location and what they will see in your photos, should be important to you. |
|
|
|
08/28/2007 06:29:25 PM · #8 |
| My 2 cents please. I am a new photographer or maybe classified as just a picture take for the most part. Which leads me to my 2 cents. I know my entry to a challenge won't be great, but I try to make up for it by trying my hardest to find something that meets the challenge to compinsate for quality. I want to learn! But when you see a a wonderful entry that dosen't meet the challenge it is really frustrating to me as someone who wants to learn because it does not teach me the different techniques to meet the challenge.To me that is why there are subjects given to meet. If not then have all free studies. Just how I see it as a beginner.Thanks |
|
|
|
08/28/2007 06:33:20 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by meow:
My 2 cents please. I am a new photographer or maybe classified as just a picture take for the most part. Which leads me to my 2 cents. I know my entry to a challenge won't be great, but I try to make up for it by trying my hardest to find something that meets the challenge to compinsate for quality. I want to learn! But when you see a a wonderful entry that dosen't meet the challenge it is really frustrating to me as someone who wants to learn because it does not teach me the different techniques to meet the challenge.To me that is why there are subjects given to meet. If not then have all free studies. Just how I see it as a beginner.Thanks |
I get what you are saying and totally agree.
Something else I find annoying is images being shoe-horned into a challenge, that is, someone takes a general photo, but then by way of the image title make it fit the challenge. I will admit to voting these down, even the greatest picture, if its been shoehorned, will rarely get a vote of 5 or above from me. |
|
|
|
08/28/2007 06:35:14 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by meow:
My 2 cents please. I am a new photographer or maybe classified as just a picture take for the most part. Which leads me to my 2 cents. I know my entry to a challenge won't be great, but I try to make up for it by trying my hardest to find something that meets the challenge to compinsate for quality. I want to learn! But when you see a a wonderful entry that dosen't meet the challenge it is really frustrating to me as someone who wants to learn because it does not teach me the different techniques to meet the challenge.To me that is why there are subjects given to meet. If not then have all free studies. Just how I see it as a beginner.Thanks |
Ditto.
I have seen many times that my entry that meets the challenge does poorer than an entry that blatantly does not meet challenge.
And this is the reason, if any entry does not meet challenge (if by a long shot), it gets 1s or 2s from me. No matter how good that photo is. If it is good photo, after challenge I can always praise it, but in the frame of challenge description it has to meet. Because we so so photographers work to find something that meets challenge. |
|
|
|
08/28/2007 06:44:24 PM · #11 |
| Not to beat a dead horse...But..when a great picture is shoehorned into a challenge by the title....when one of the so called rules is not to put much emphasis...on that title...(as this is a Photography site and we should let the photo speak for itself). And that so called great photo WINS....I guess it is also possible to DNMC..and get a Blue Ribbon...that is what confuses me..all this conversation on this subject...when it all does no good anyway... |
|
|
|
08/28/2007 06:47:53 PM · #12 |
| I do my best to keep an open mind about what meets the challenge and what doesn't, but there's no way I'm going to assume that all the photos meet the challenge. If I can't make a connection then to me it does not meet the challenge. If alot of people think the same way I do about it, then it will probably score lower. Part of the challenge is meeting the challenge and another part of the challenge is to communicate that to the other people that are looking at it. I might think a tree trunk meets the apple challengs because to me it looks alot like the stem of an apple. Most people won't make that connection and so in that respect I would fail meeting the challenge, and deserve the low score I would most likely get. If your photo doesn't convey the 'spirit' of the challenge to more than a small number of people, then DNMC. Expect it. If you don't like getting low scores, don't enter unless you're sure. Don't get mad about it and definetely don't tell people that the taker of the photo might be smarter than you so just assume it meets the challenge. |
|
|
|
08/28/2007 06:52:03 PM · #13 |
| ...and one more thing...I really think the problem is people don't know what meeting the Challenge (whatever that is)...actually is...filling the frame doesn't mean a total 100% coverage of the pixels of the subject....lol...so being educated about what your voting on is of course necessary.. |
|
|
|
08/28/2007 06:55:16 PM · #14 |
I do not ever type in DNMC...
I DO however, adjust my scoring up and/or down based on how well the photo meets the challenge. Isn't that part of the CHALLENGE? To take a photo using techniques or settings outside of your comfort zone?
To learn, you must not shoehorn LOL
. |
|
|
|
08/28/2007 07:09:31 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by tfarrell23:
...and one more thing...I really think the problem is people don't know what meeting the Challenge (whatever that is)...actually is...filling the frame doesn't mean a total 100% coverage of the pixels of the subject....lol...so being educated about what your voting on is of course necessary.. |
but doesn't "Compose your photograph so that nothing but your subject is in the frame." mean a total 100% coverage of the pixels is of the subject"? As I read it, nothing but the subject means, only the subject is in the frame.
Please correct me if I am wrong. I am just trying to understand this. |
|
|
|
08/28/2007 07:12:09 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by TCGuru:
To learn, you must not shoehorn LOL. |
Sounds like a bumper sticker waiting to happen. :P |
|
|
|
08/28/2007 07:22:01 PM · #17 |
To those of us who like to say "does not meet the spirit of the challenge", what does that mean? Does that mean the challenge guidelines were not followed? Or does it mean you cannot figure out what you are voting on. If the photo meets the gudelines set for the challenge, then it meets the SPIRIT of the challenge. This has got to be one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. Also, the people who interpret the challenge descriptions different than the majority or either not too smart, or just don't care to follow the rules. They know from the past if they put in a good pick they have a chance of doing well. I, for one, will vote the lowest possible score for them, and also include DNMC, as we are asked for a reason for the low score, and I would love to let them know I will not tolerate this no matter how good of a pic it is. These challenge guidelines are put here for us to better ourselves in the different types and styles of pictures we take, and to make it more of a challenge for us on the ones we are weaker on. I don't know why this is such a big deal. Let the whiners whine until they figure out we as a whole prefer participants who will post what is asked for. There is no reason for some of us to spend our time trying to get the shot as per description, and do poorly, while others do well on DNMC photos.
Message edited by author 2007-08-28 19:28:08. |
|
|
|
08/28/2007 07:22:29 PM · #18 |
Webster.....Fill; to put as much as possible into;make full. To take up the whole of.
Fill up.....to make or become completely full.
Just had to do that!LOL |
|
|
|
08/28/2007 07:29:24 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by WriteHeart:
Originally posted by tfarrell23:
...and one more thing...I really think the problem is people don't know what meeting the Challenge (whatever that is)...actually is...filling the frame doesn't mean a total 100% coverage of the pixels of the subject....lol...so being educated about what your voting on is of course necessary.. |
but doesn't "Compose your photograph so that nothing but your subject is in the frame." mean a total 100% coverage of the pixels is of the subject"? As I read it, nothing but the subject means, only the subject is in the frame.
Please correct me if I am wrong. I am just trying to understand this. |
YES! Thank god someone else interprets it the same as I do. Now I don't feel as stupid as before. |
|
|
|
08/28/2007 07:32:38 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
For example, this photo meets the challenge* explicitly and head-on, but scored terribly because people were simply unaware of that relationship, and only a couple of folks bothered to check it out and see that it did, indeed "MC" ... not that I expected anything else.
|
Well to be a fair to the voter (and to me :P) you've also got these attempts at the brown ribbon in the mix. I'm sure many at one point or another have spent the time trying to figure out the relevancy of a photo only to find out afterwards there was none. |
|
|
|
08/28/2007 07:33:45 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by WriteHeart:
Originally posted by tfarrell23:
...and one more thing...I really think the problem is people don't know what meeting the Challenge (whatever that is)...actually is...filling the frame doesn't mean a total 100% coverage of the pixels of the subject....lol...so being educated about what your voting on is of course necessary.. |
but doesn't "Compose your photograph so that nothing but your subject is in the frame." mean a total 100% coverage of the pixels is of the subject"? As I read it, nothing but the subject means, only the subject is in the frame.
Please correct me if I am wrong. I am just trying to understand this. |
In my opinion..all the Challenge description means.. is the only thing in the frame is the Subject of the photograph...I don't think it means it has to cover 100% of all pixels...for example my photo...has one thing in the frame...filling it... |
|
|
|
08/28/2007 07:38:05 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by meow:
Webster.....Fill; to put as much as possible into;make full. To take up the whole of.
Fill up.....to make or become completely full.
Just had to do that!LOL |
DPChallenge.... Filling the frame; Compose your photograph so that nothing but your subject is in the frame.
Maybe some should go over to webster's web site and vote? Sorry couldn't resist. :P
Message edited by author 2007-08-28 19:38:50. |
|
|
|
08/28/2007 07:55:30 PM · #23 |
Often when formulating my shots, I try to think as far out of the box as I can. Some times I succeed, other times I do not. For this reason, when voting, I try to keep all the possibilities of what a shot could possibly mean and represent to the best of my ability. When this and all else fails and I am unable to grasp the concept behind a shot, despite how obsure I may think it is from the challenge topic, I rest my thoughts on the fact that I just don't get it and that's okay. Instead of voting super low or giving a shot a 1 and/or writing that it's a DNMC, I choose to not vote on that pic.
To me, there is rarely a DMNC unless a shot is entered by mistake. I know this happens but I cannot intelligbly decipher when this has occured. To avoid stamping my own perception on a shot that may very possibly be beyond my own experience and understanding of the challenge topic, instead of invalidating a shot by scoring low or DNMC-ing, I opt to not vote and accept that, like in life, there will be many things I do not understand.
FWIW, my 2 cents...
Message edited by author 2007-08-28 19:57:03.
|
|
|
|
08/28/2007 09:00:20 PM · #24 |
Could those of you arguing about filling the frame please go do it in one of the two or more threads for that?
This thread isn't about a specific challenge, so you're DNMC with those posts. :)
I specifically created this thread so we could discuss the concept of DNMC, not pick over a particular challenge description.
Thanks.
|
|
|
|
08/28/2007 09:10:30 PM · #25 |
"Too much consideration, IMO, is given to voters and commenters to rate entries by topicality, and this stance is stressed in the rules. While I am all for challenges in the general spirit we conduct them, I feel that by encouraging voters to sit in judgment of matters they cannot, reasonably, be expected to fathom and, thus, appreciate, we encourage conflict and tedious discussion largely external to photography and art.
The energy wasted and lost here, IMO, could better be invested, if it were understood that an emphasis on topicality existed for the creative benefit of the entrants and not for the righteous glee of the uninitiated." |
|
