Frame-Filling 101 - DPChallenge Forums

08/27/2007 07:57:35 PM · #78

Originally posted by MaryO:

Originally posted by jhonan:

Originally posted by MaryO:
No, no; you are assuming a convex meniscus when optimal surface tension is achieved, but it should be concave between water and a pail, should it not? Gotta' watch those assumptions ;-)

A concave meniscus means the pail isn't full. The correct method is to take a measurement of the exact volume of the pail (I would suggest differentiation to establish exact volume), and then compare to the volume of water which has been delivered by the pail carrier. This will establish within reasonable margin of error whether the pail has actually been filled (or in fact over-filled in the case of a convex meniscus)

Ah, a standard measurement to compare results to. Brilliant! All pails will be filled to exactly the same level and there will be no more of this "interpretative" business when it comes to pail-filling.

Now about those angels ...

AHHHH! But if it does not in fact have a convex miniscus it is not carrying as much water as it can! Thus the question beckons, What is Full? Maybe the description should have been 'Fill the frame, with a concave miniscus holding 4 angels, with your subject'

08/27/2007 07:58:25 PM · #79

Originally posted by jhonan:

~~Unfortunately, they are only thrown out for those voters that don't vote on at least 57 of those images (20% of 285 entries).~~

Never mind, I understand what you were trying to say. A string of one's may look like a hostile trend, in which case they could be considered invalid.

Message edited by author 2007-08-27 20:04:07.

Judi

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 ED

08/27/2007 07:58:28 PM · #80

Originally posted by jhonan:

Nah...let them go...they think they know everything...so let them score ones...and then their votes will be scrapped...which is all they deserve.

Sorry for the sourness of this comment...but this is MY opinion only...and it is NOT aimed at any one person. So please don't twist it to say that it is.

Apple iPhone 5

08/27/2007 08:05:50 PM · #81

Originally posted by kawesttex:

I'm sorry. I just can't let this go.... 'Water' in solid, gaseous, or liquid form? - Clarification please. And hurry, the DNMC army are on the march.

08/27/2007 08:06:57 PM · #82

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by jhonan:

Originally posted by yanko:
"Compose your photograph so that nothing but your subject is in the frame."

Does this photo meet that description?

In my opinion it does 100%. Nothing but her subject is in the frame.

Let's logically dissect the challenge title and description. Fill the Frame - To me this says the frame must be filled completely with the subject.

Well we are already at a disagreement here. I view it as stated (i.e. fill the frame). I don't read into it any more than that. When I ask my waiter to fill my glass I don't expect them to fill it completely so that it spills over the minute I pick it up. I expect some common sense to apply. Unfortunatley DPC as a whole lacks that, IMO.

IMO, no, this does not meet challenge description. The subject is in the center of the frame, and while it fills out the majority of the frame, there is still a white background that is in the frame. Let's try to look at this logically. You go buy a new car, and the salesperson says look at that car, that is what you are buying. So, in my understanding, I am buying only the car, not the background or the surroundings. Just the car(the SUBJECT). Can anyone argue this point with me? Please, when many take the time to properly post a opic that is within the requirements of the description, why should others be rewarded because they cannot follow the guidelines laid out? Why is it so complicated? The subject must fill the ENTIRE frame. Where's the confusion?

08/27/2007 08:14:56 PM · #83

Originally posted by rugman1969:

The subject must fill the ENTIRE frame. Where's the confusion?

How do you know it didn't fill the entire frame--the focus frame? The challenge description doesn't state which frame to fill.

Sony DT 18–55mm f/3.5–5.6 SAM AF

08/27/2007 08:15:21 PM · #84

Originally posted by jhonan:

Why should they be scrapped? If people are not meeting the challenge with their photos, then it is not fair to scrap their votes. I, for one, understand someone trying to be mean by voting low scores, but if the photos don't meet, why should they? If this happens, you can damn well be sure I'm outta here. This would be a flagrant disregard of personal opinion. If this site turns out to be "vote the way we want you to or go somewhere else and we won't count your votes", then I will. It's a shame if it would come to this. We might as well never vote again. Better yet, just post your pics, and let only a computer vote for all based on certain parameters. No ones, no tens, only middle votes(4-7). This seems to be what the community wants anyway. Why try. If you know you can only get from a 4-7, just take a snapshot walking down the street, and you have a chance at winning. Where's the challenge in that?

Les_Feck

Sony SLT-A58

08/27/2007 08:16:06 PM · #85

Originally posted by bassbone:

that is what the 1 to 10 voting is for - how well is the photograph taken, how artistic is it, how does it represent the challenge description/theme. another box really does not help - we already have a scoring system

Originally posted by jonejess:
Dumb Question to SC and Programmers:

How difficult would it be, either independent or inclusive of scoring on a 1-10 scale, to add a seperate check box on the voting page to indicate whether or not a particular photo met the "challenge"?

08/27/2007 08:16:48 PM · #86

Originally posted by lesgainous:

Originally posted by rugman1969:
The subject must fill the ENTIRE frame. Where's the confusion?

How do you know it didn't fill the entire frame--the focus frame? The challenge description doesn't state which frame to fill.

Oh come on. Does the description say the focus frame? No, it says the frame. By any means, one should figure that means the whole frame. It does not specify a particular part of the frame.
Maybe when we vote for the next president, we should only vote on his arm, or his leg. His ear or nose? Maybe only his eye.

Message edited by author 2007-08-27 20:18:37.

Nikon NIKKOR Z 28-400mm f/4-8

08/27/2007 08:17:27 PM · #87

Originally posted by jonejess:

You're right. Every so often I try to pipe in with a "possible idea that may lead to a solution". I sometimes forget its about the complaining and whining for the "sake" of complaining and whining that makes people happy, not actually eliminating the reason for the discontent. After 25 years of marriage I should know better. My wife trained me better than that.

Carry on. The scoring system, as it exists, is perfect (slapping myself in the head).

Originally posted by bassbone:
that is what the 1 to 10 voting is for - how well is the photograph taken, how artistic is it, how does it represent the challenge description/theme. another box really does not help - we already have a scoring system

ROFLMAO

Originally posted by jonejess:
Dumb Question to SC and Programmers:

How difficult would it be, either independent or inclusive of scoring on a 1-10 scale, to add a seperate check box on the voting page to indicate whether or not a particular photo met the "challenge"?

MaryO

Nikon Z8

08/27/2007 08:17:33 PM · #88

Originally posted by jhonan:

Originally posted by kawesttex:
AHHHH! But if it does not in fact have a convex miniscus it is not carrying as much water as it can! Thus the question beckons, What is Full? Maybe the description should have been 'Fill the frame, with a concave miniscus holding 4 angels, with your subject'

I'm sorry. I just can't let this go.... 'Water' in solid, gaseous, or liquid form? - Clarification please. And hurry, the DNMC army are on the march.

You're so right, the definition is STILL open to interpretation. I mean, I can't even tell if these should be little, fat cherubic angels or avenging, wrathy-type angels. Or some other kind altogether.

And what kind of dance are they doing, if any? Egads, that's a whole 'nother area where there are more than 2 choices.

It's positively befuddling, it is. I'm getting a headache and I've not even slapped myself.

08/27/2007 08:18:09 PM · #89

Originally posted by rugman1969:

Originally posted by lesgainous:

Originally posted by rugman1969:
The subject must fill the ENTIRE frame. Where's the confusion?

How do you know it didn't fill the entire frame--the focus frame? The challenge description doesn't state which frame to fill.

Oh come on. Does the description say the focus frame? No, it says the frame. By any means, one should figure that means the whole frame. It does not specify a particular part of the frame.

Hey, with all the subjectiveness flowing around here lately, it could be any frame as far as I'm concerned. ;-)

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 ED

08/27/2007 08:22:06 PM · #90

Originally posted by lesgainous:

Originally posted by rugman1969:

Originally posted by lesgainous:

Originally posted by rugman1969:
The subject must fill the ENTIRE frame. Where's the confusion?

How do you know it didn't fill the entire frame--the focus frame? The challenge description doesn't state which frame to fill.

Oh come on. Does the description say the focus frame? No, it says the frame. By any means, one should figure that means the whole frame. It does not specify a particular part of the frame.

Hey, with all the subjectiveness flowing around here lately, it could be any frame as far as I'm concerned. ;-)

Whatever! Just continue to take pics of anything and submit them in challenges. If it's the right kind of pic, whther or not it meets the challenge description, so what. Put it in there, and you will probably do fine. Pretend all challenges are free studies, and you will never learn how to shoot in any other ways other than one. That's the point of a challenge. To test your skills in other parts of photography. Not just take a pic and post it. Where's the fun in that? You can do that anywhere. That's why this site is so well known. It's different than the other ones. I, for one, would like to keep it that way.

Apple iPhone 5

08/27/2007 08:24:27 PM · #91

Originally posted by rugman1969:

Why is it so complicated? The subject must fill the ENTIRE frame. Where's the confusion?

I picked these from the top ten of the last fill the frame challenge. I've identified what I think the subject is. And using criteria of "the subject must fill the ENTIRE frame" they all fail;

Subject: Eyes.

Subject: Dome.

Subject: Tap.

Subject: Face.

Subject: Eye.

My point is... It is subjective. It is not a thing that can be measured to the Nth degree. Some challenges yes, (like the 5am challenge where the shot had to be taken at a certain time of day, that was easy to check) But you ask 100 people 'Does the subject fill the frame?' on any of the images I've posted above and you'll get different answers.

Carl Zeiss 50mm ZE f/1.4 Planar T for Canon

08/27/2007 08:28:06 PM · #92

Originally posted by rugman1969:

Originally posted by lesgainous:

Originally posted by rugman1969:

Originally posted by lesgainous:

Originally posted by rugman1969:
The subject must fill the ENTIRE frame. Where's the confusion?

How do you know it didn't fill the entire frame--the focus frame? The challenge description doesn't state which frame to fill.

Oh come on. Does the description say the focus frame? No, it says the frame. By any means, one should figure that means the whole frame. It does not specify a particular part of the frame.

Hey, with all the subjectiveness flowing around here lately, it could be any frame as far as I'm concerned. ;-)

Whatever! Just continue to take pics of anything and submit them in challenges. If it's the right kind of pic, whther or not it meets the challenge description, so what. Put it in there, and you will probably do fine. Pretend all challenges are free studies, and you will never learn how to shoot in any other ways other than one. That's the point of a challenge. To test your skills in other parts of photography. Not just take a pic and post it. Where's the fun in that? You can do that anywhere. That's why this site is so well known. It's different than the other ones. I, for one, would like to keep it that way.

All I know is that art has no black-and-white boundaries--it's all about the shades of gray that make folks (like photographers) creative. Sticking to the challenge description to a "T" demonstrates black-and-white mentality.

yanko

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

08/27/2007 08:29:05 PM · #93

Originally posted by rugman1969:

The description doesn't say fill the entire frame either so I think his point is equally valid usually your logic.

kawesttex

Apple iPhone 11 Pro

08/27/2007 08:30:39 PM · #94

Originally posted by rugman1969:

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by jhonan:

Originally posted by yanko:
"Compose your photograph so that nothing but your subject is in the frame."

Does this photo meet that description?

In my opinion it does 100%. Nothing but her subject is in the frame.

Let's logically dissect the challenge title and description. Fill the Frame - To me this says the frame must be filled completely with the subject.

Well we are already at a disagreement here. I view it as stated (i.e. fill the frame). I don't read into it any more than that. When I ask my waiter to fill my glass I don't expect them to fill it completely so that it spills over the minute I pick it up. I expect some common sense to apply. Unfortunatley DPC as a whole lacks that, IMO.

IMO, no, this does not meet challenge description. The subject is in the center of the frame, and while it fills out the majority of the frame, there is still a white background that is in the frame. Let's try to look at this logically. You go buy a new car, and the salesperson says look at that car, that is what you are buying. So, in my understanding, I am buying only the car, not the background or the surroundings. Just the car(the SUBJECT). Can anyone argue this point with me? Please, when many take the time to properly post a opic that is within the requirements of the description, why should others be rewarded because they cannot follow the guidelines laid out? Why is it so complicated? The subject must fill the ENTIRE frame. Where's the confusion?

So you are buying a rectangular car, or square if the salesperson crops differently, possibly without tires if you cannot see them from the aspect that the salesperson is selling it to you?

08/27/2007 08:31:42 PM · #95

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by rugman1969:

Originally posted by lesgainous:

Originally posted by rugman1969:
The subject must fill the ENTIRE frame. Where's the confusion?

How do you know it didn't fill the entire frame--the focus frame? The challenge description doesn't state which frame to fill.

Oh come on. Does the description say the focus frame? No, it says the frame. By any means, one should figure that means the whole frame. It does not specify a particular part of the frame.
Maybe when we vote for the next president, we should only vote on his arm, or his leg. His ear or nose? Maybe only his eye.

The description doesn't say fill the entire frame either so I think his point is equally valid usually your logic.

Nothing but your subect should be in the frame, as per the description.

kawesttex

Apple iPhone 11 Pro

Carl Zeiss 50mm ZE f/1.4 Planar T for Canon

08/27/2007 08:32:17 PM · #96

Originally posted by jhonan:

UUUmmm, liquid?

yanko

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

08/27/2007 08:34:06 PM · #97

Originally posted by rugman1969:

IMO, no, this does not meet challenge description. The subject is in the center of the frame, and while it fills out the majority of the frame, there is still a white background that is in the frame.

Looks like the background has been obliviated either by flash or by photoshop. Either way it's gone. Only thing left is the subject.

Originally posted by rugman1969:

Let's try to look at this logically. You go buy a new car, and the salesperson says look at that car, that is what you are buying. So, in my understanding, I am buying only the car, not the background or the surroundings. Just the car(the SUBJECT). Can anyone argue this point with me? Please, when many take the time to properly post a opic that is within the requirements of the description, why should others be rewarded because they cannot follow the guidelines laid out? Why is it so complicated? The subject must fill the ENTIRE frame. Where's the confusion?

You are talking apples and oranges. We are talking about filling something not buying something. At least my waiter example applied to the former. Can you point me to where it says entire frame in the description below?

"Compose your photograph so that nothing but your subject is in the frame."

yanko

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Carl Zeiss 50mm ZE f/1.4 Planar T for Canon

08/27/2007 08:35:03 PM · #98

Originally posted by rugman1969:

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by rugman1969:

Originally posted by lesgainous:

Originally posted by rugman1969:
The subject must fill the ENTIRE frame. Where's the confusion?

How do you know it didn't fill the entire frame--the focus frame? The challenge description doesn't state which frame to fill.

Oh come on. Does the description say the focus frame? No, it says the frame. By any means, one should figure that means the whole frame. It does not specify a particular part of the frame.
Maybe when we vote for the next president, we should only vote on his arm, or his leg. His ear or nose? Maybe only his eye.

The description doesn't say fill the entire frame either so I think his point is equally valid usually your logic.

Nothing but your subect should be in the frame, as per the description.

Which is what lesgainous example does.

mpeters

Canon EOS-5D

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

08/27/2007 08:35:26 PM · #99

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by rugman1969:

IMO, no, this does not meet challenge description. The subject is in the center of the frame, and while it fills out the majority of the frame, there is still a white background that is in the frame.

Looks like the background has been obliviated either by flash or by photoshop. Either way it's gone. Only thing left is the subject.

Originally posted by rugman1969:

Let's try to look at this logically. You go buy a new car, and the salesperson says look at that car, that is what you are buying. So, in my understanding, I am buying only the car, not the background or the surroundings. Just the car(the SUBJECT). Can anyone argue this point with me? Please, when many take the time to properly post a opic that is within the requirements of the description, why should others be rewarded because they cannot follow the guidelines laid out? Why is it so complicated? The subject must fill the ENTIRE frame. Where's the confusion?

You are talking apples and oranges. We are talking about filling something not buying something. At least my waiter example applied to the former. Can you point me to where it says entire frame in the description below?

"Compose your photograph so that nothing but your subject is in the frame."

I'm waiting a reply... ;) Carry on.

ETA
Thank you. But, I still don't think you answered Richard's question.

Message edited by author 2007-08-27 20:37:16.