Abstain vote - DPChallenge Forums

Canon EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM

08/02/2007 01:16:00 PM · #1

With talk criticing images to submit to challenges, it would be nice to have the voting option to abstain on an image. These images can then be displayed at the beginning of the list after you've finished voting.

I know you can click on the "<<" or ">>" to pass up voting, but you're bugged to vote on these images later.

Also, these abstentions (is that a word?) will count toward your required 25% to vote before your votes are counted.

I think this would encourage people to not vote on images they've given advice on and maybe open more conversations before submitting images.

Just a thought.

Edit: spelling abstainations to abstentions (tanks xianart)

Message edited by author 2007-08-02 13:19:55.

xianart

Canon EOS-7D

08/02/2007 01:17:29 PM · #2

abstentions

Art Roflmao

Canon EOS-6D Mark II

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

08/02/2007 02:10:05 PM · #3

obstinence

SamDoe1

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

08/02/2007 02:15:26 PM · #4

Originally posted by Nullix:

Also, these abstentions (is that a word?) will count toward your required 25% to vote before your votes are counted.

What would stop someone from doing this for all of their 25%? (It's 20% though isn't it??)

Sony 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 E-mount

08/02/2007 02:56:57 PM · #5

Originally posted by SamDoe1:

What would stop someone from doing this for all of their 25%? (It's 20% though isn't it??)

It's for the powers that be to decide. My thought was to not penalize people for abstaining. If you truly want to abstain for every image, what's the point? You could just click on the ">>" for every image also.

This abstain vote can be used for other things. I don't like pictures of peoples kids, so I can abstain from voting on those. Someone can be against using images of Jesus in challenges and abstain for religious reasons.

Also, there have been pictures that I can't judge. The image is either brilliance or ignorance. I can just abstain from it.

jmsetzler

Sony Alpha a6000

08/02/2007 02:59:23 PM · #6

Originally posted by Nullix:

Also, there have been pictures that I can't judge. The image is either brilliance or ignorance. I can just abstain from it.

Maybe there's a learning opportunity here for you :)

Art Roflmao

Canon EOS-6D Mark II

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

08/02/2007 03:00:47 PM · #7

Your vote will always be (and always should be, IMO) subjective - not objective.

codfish

Nikon D80

Nikon AF Zoom-Nikkor 18-135mm f/3.5- 5.6G ED DX

08/02/2007 03:08:32 PM · #8

I like this idea, however I would also like to add and extra level to it. I know that currently it is suggested that a vote of 3 or under be accompanied by a comment by the voter. I would suggest that this become mandatory if the Abstain vote is enacted.

I am a first time poster to the challenges after several years of lurking on the site. I lurked because I was a die hard film photographer and only took the plunge to digital earlier this year, not because I didn't have the guts to enter. I was always a bit jealous of the participants not only for their great talent but the wonderful feedback that they received. I guess I expected similar when I posted. Unfortunately after more than 200 votes I have received but 2 comments, with an average score of just over 4 I'm sure that I have received more than 2 votes of 3 or less. I want to improve but it is very difficult if no one tell you what is displeasing about an image.

By the way, what is a respectable score here? I would have assumed somewhere around 6 but I'm not sure.

Message edited by author 2007-08-02 15:09:40.

SamDoe1

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

08/02/2007 03:13:17 PM · #9

Originally posted by Nullix:

Right, you can do this but it would not count towards your minimum vote (20%, 25%, or whatever) where as the abstain vote would. I don't know why you'd even bother doing this since you might as well just not vote in that case, but still. I guess the only upside would be to raise your "total vote" count.

glad2badad

Apple iPhone 16 Pro

Lensbaby Sweet 35 Optic

08/02/2007 03:19:07 PM · #10

Originally posted by codfish:

I want to improve but it is very difficult if no one tell you what is displeasing about an image.

It's unfortunate, but with the number of entries to vote on, the number of comments is slim at times. Especially if your image falls in the middle without a glaring deficiency in the image or you haven't chosen a emotive subject.

Best way to get feedback, if you REALLY want it, is to post your image in a forum asking for comments after the challenge is over.

08/02/2007 04:10:57 PM · #11

So, what will this change take?

1. Database change.
2. Change challenge_vote_image.php to add the option to abstain.
3. Change challenge_vote_list.php to list abstained images.
4. Change image.php to display abstain vote.
5. Change the voting calculation.

Change #1: I don't know what is involed with this change since I don't know the database. I would think it's a property of the image and just that table would need changing. There could be other tables to change too. Maybe you don't add a new field, but count a abstain as a vote = -1. That way, when you list the images in #3, you just list them at the end.

Change #2: This will be the hardest modification. You'll have to come up with a concept to the user interface to abstain.

Change #3: If you count an abstain as a vote = -1, it should be pretty easy to list the abstained images at the end with an order by clause in the query statement.

Change #4: Should be easy to list the abstain votes. It could either be displayed in the "Statistics" or "Voting Breakdown."

Change #5: I don't know what it will take to change the voting calculation, but it shouldn't count the abstained votes. If you use the vote = -1 as an abstain, then the voting calculation shouldn't count votes < 0.

All in all, not too hard to do. My breakdown might be a little symplistic since I don't know the backend code.

edit: forgot about the voting calculation.

Message edited by author 2007-08-02 16:13:20.

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

08/03/2007 09:26:48 AM · #12

Bump - I really think this is a good idea.

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

08/03/2007 09:57:14 AM · #13

Originally posted by codfish:

By the way, what is a respectable score here? I would have assumed somewhere around 6 but I'm not sure.

"Respectable" is relative to your expectations; for a DrAchoo or a DeSousa, a score of 6 is marginal. For most of us, anything over 6 represents success, and anything over 7 is something to write home about.

R.

glad2badad

Apple iPhone 16 Pro

Lensbaby Sweet 35 Optic

08/03/2007 10:02:03 AM · #14

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by codfish:
By the way, what is a respectable score here? I would have assumed somewhere around 6 but I'm not sure.

"Respectable" is relative to your expectations; for a DrAchoo or a DeSousa, a score of 6 is marginal. For most of us, anything over 6 represents success, and anything over 7 is something to write home about.

R.

By the time I get around to a 7 I won't be able to afford the postage to send a letter home! :P

A 6 still makes me happy. :D

cpanaioti

Canon EOS-40D

Canon EF 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 DO IS USM

08/03/2007 10:35:17 AM · #15

Yes it would be nice to be able to by-pass an image and not have it come back as part of the random voting order. However, I don't think this should count toward the 20% so as not to reduce the percentage of actual votes one has to give.

Abstaining on 1 or 2 (an having them count in the 20%) may not hurt in a challenge that contains 600+ images however in small challenges this would be a big chunk of the overall number of votes.

Message edited by author 2007-08-03 10:37:59.

Matthew

Peleng 8mm f/3.5 Fisheye MC In M42 Mount

08/03/2007 10:45:20 AM · #16

If you really cannot judge a photo (which is something that I would question in the first place), then surely a "5" is about as abstemious as you need to be? Otherwise, you are answerable to no one so vote how you want to (rather than how you think that you ought to).

craigester

Olympus E-400

Olympus 40-150mm f/4.0-5.6 ED Zuiko Digital Zoom

08/03/2007 10:49:37 AM · #17

If your spouse is a member here and you see his or her image, you dare not vote on it, lest you get banned for "friendly voting". Rather that than give it a 5 or below... This is why I think this is a good idea too.

Apple iPhone 5

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 ED

08/03/2007 10:50:25 AM · #18

Originally posted by Nullix:

I think this would encourage people to not vote on images they've given advice on and maybe open more conversations before submitting images.

Is this the norm on DPC these days?

I've had a one year gap since my last DPC challenge, and in the meantime it appears that getting advice off other DPC'ers prior to submitting the shot is fairly commonplace.

How can I get feedback on my challenge ideas? Or do I have to be in a team or the WPL for this? (tbh, I'm not really interested in joining a team, but I would like the advantage of getting feedback prior to submission)

karmat

Apple iPhone 7

Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L USM

08/03/2007 11:04:35 AM · #19

I don't think having pictures you've chosen not to vote on count towards the 20% minimum is a good idea. There are a couple of reasons for having it in place to begin with. First, it helps to insure that everyone at least gets a fair share of the votes. If people vote on the first 20% in the challenge, statistically, every picture will receive similar amounts of votes because the images are shuffled for every user. If I am abstaining, that will skew that system.

Also, the 20% is in place to help prevent "friend voting." As it is now, if I know which picture is yours, I can cherry pick it, vote on it, then I still have the rest of the 20% to vote on. If I don't want to use that time, I can just hit the abstain button x number of times until I get up to 20%.

The only way I would even see it as a possibility is if you were only allowed a small amounts of "passes" (say 1% or less or 2 per challenge). If there are more than that number of shots that you feel you need to abstain on, I would begin to question why you vote.

But, for now, the >> and << buttons do exactly what you are suggesting, short of counting for the 20%, so I'm not sure why it would be such a necessary thing to add.

08/03/2007 01:46:21 PM · #20

Originally posted by Matthew:

If you really cannot judge a photo..., then surely a "5" is about as abstemious as you need to be?...

Maybe 5.4999999... would be more in the middle. Since it's on a 1-10 scale is 5 really in the middle? I think it's on the lower half of the middle.

Matthew

Peleng 8mm f/3.5 Fisheye MC In M42 Mount

08/03/2007 01:56:55 PM · #21

Originally posted by Nullix:

Originally posted by Matthew:
If you really cannot judge a photo..., then surely a "5" is about as abstemious as you need to be?...

Maybe 5.4999999... would be more in the middle. Since it's on a 1-10 scale is 5 really in the middle? I think it's on the lower half of the middle.

Since the range of scores tends to be about 4-7.5, the average is around 5.75, the overall median score is around 5.5, but I would guess that most people's median vote is "5" or "6" (mine is a "5").

It should not be hard to work your own median score out and apply it when you are uncertain how to score an image and want to be neutral (for whatever reason).

RayEthier

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

08/03/2007 03:12:09 PM · #22

Originally posted by craigester:

Surely you jest!... and while I am at it, the idea is inane as it offers no value added to the present system. If you truly don't want to vote on something, simply skip it... there truly exists no need to devise a new system to tally a non-event.

Ray

smurfguy