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08/17/2003 10:52:52 AM · #26 |
I am going to comment quickly here that receiving comments on photos is a great part of a challenge, however it always annoys me that folks take what was in my case a natural set-up of objects (I won't be more specific so I don't give away the shot, but suffice it to say I wasn't going to touch anything in my shot to re-arrange it or change the background) and tells me how they would have "set it up" or "done it better." Adding a somewhat condescending "good job" to the end of such comments makes them that much more annoying.
I don't expect everyone to like my work. In fact, I've found that here, most voters don't like my work at all. I really keep entering shots with the ultimate hope that I'll get some good comments and maybe make some folks think.
Shari
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08/17/2003 11:47:17 AM · #27 |
People don't always know that it's a natural arrangement and/or something you can't mess with, though. A lot of the shots here that look like they are, are actually very cleverly staged. I just shrug when I get a comment that suggests I do something impossible: the viewer doesn't know it was impossible, and I can at least keep the effect they wanted to see in mind for a future shot. I've made suggestions to people that I know turned out to be quite impossible because of the conditions under which they were shooting (after a PM exchange), but I didn't know that until we talked, with only the photo contents to work with.
There are also the inevitable counterbalancing comments - people want more of something and less of something and once a few folks have commented, you can't please them all. But that doesn't make the comments less useful, as each one underlines something that didn't work for that viewer, and a possible approach to fix it.
(Of course, I still have to remind myself of that every time someone posts a comment suggesting I fix the weather, or the location of an immovable object.... *wry grin* For some reason, the weather in particular gets to me. I'm sorry others don't like clouds as much as I do - and I strongly recommend they don't move to Oregon. :) |
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08/17/2003 12:38:48 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by justesme:
Have you noticed all those images entered into the Desolation comp? I have this nagging feeling that most of those entries were not exposed during the dates given as many of them look like snaps that 'sort-of-fits-the-description-so-it's-going-in thing' going on. I have marked and commented on more than 30 % of these photos and the highest rating so far is 4 and there are not many of those. Often the pictures are so bad I just put down a 1 and dont bother commenting for the lack of time...
What do you think? |
We all appreciate you taking time and the extra effort to make comments and even to vote on our pictures, but may I make a suggestion. In an effort for you to judge yourself maybe you would take the time for an experiment. Open ant previous challenge and look at each picture without looking at its score, score it , and then compare. If you are out of the ballpark compared to the average that the picture received, take a closer look. See if there is something about the picture that you may have missed, and then re-evaluate. I notice that your Bio states that you are 17 years old and a beginner. DPC is thought of by most participants to be a learning site. Try my suggestion and see if you can also learn from what you see. :<)
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08/17/2003 01:09:27 PM · #29 |
Some one may have already said this, because I just skimmed a lot of the posts instead of reading them.. but there is a way to tell if the picture was taken during the challenge. Pretty much every digital camera I've ever worked with encodes the date and the settings in the original picture. I'm assuming that is why in the challenge rules you are required to keep the original picture. I'm sure some of the winners get checked if there are people who feel it wasn't taken during the challenge. To bad my picutes have never been good enough to need to get checked, but I have always taken my photos during the challenge so it really isn't something I worry about.
A few weeks back a picture that placed third I think was disquailfied because the photographer couldn't produce the original image for verification. |
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08/17/2003 03:23:34 PM · #30 |
| I am attracted to this site because of the challenges. I think it helps to unleash some creativity to meet the challenge buy taking a picture during the challenge timeline. I would not want to enter a photo already taken just for the remote possiblity of winning. I want to stretch my skills. Finding the right thing to photograph for the challenge is part of the fun. It would be pointless and boring to enter a photo already taken. My best shot has not been taken yet so I love the opportunity to take more pictures and have them critiqued. In voting on the desolation pictures it never occured to me that the pictures might be taken earlier. Since I knew mine was taken in the time frame I guess I just assumed everyone elses were too. |
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08/17/2003 03:30:46 PM · #31 |
This is how I try (very hard) to vote:
1 > a technically (composition, focus, lighting, balance, effects etc.) incompetent photo or an entirely unintelligible one (sometimes due to the size of an image) , an 'offensive' one to civilised nature or (even) a technically apt photo which 'clearly' demonstrates a 'failure of feeling'
2 > a technically lacking photo with little or no 'perceivable' artistic merit and/or interest, even when generously considered; a somewhat 'offensive' photo or a gross and inappropiate sentimentalisation of feeling in the context of the challenge; the pursuit of clichee without leaving room for an ironic interpretation
3 > a photo of mixed or questionable merit, both artistically and technically; a technically 'acceptable' one without any artistic or journalistic interest; a sentimental or highly 'commercialized' image designed to 'sell' a product or (worse!) person of considerable technical merit; a potentially 'interesting' or 'promising' photo (subject matter/perspective) with 'severe' technical flaws
4 > a 'pretty' photo reminiscent of many; an otherwise captivating image with one or more clearly distracting elements, either within the capture itself or via border and/or title; a technically accomplished photo relying predominantly on an idea and/or title for impact; an artistically 'promising' capture with clearly noticable technical defects; a technically 'stunning' capture bare of 'feeling' or 'sense'
5 > a 'good' photo by most standards; one that communicates capably without teaching or exhilarating us; an artistically interesting photo pointing an unusual view, perspective or matter, even if it suffers from technical 'flaws'; a technically 'stunning' capture with limited human or artistic 'range'
6 > a remarkable image and well executed by most standards while allowing for some technical shortcomings, not easily prevented or corrected; an ordinarary or simple shot, perfectly timed or 'found' that tells an old story in a new way; a very personal take, likely unpopular, but aesthetically 'exciting' to some; an image in the 'classic' fashion, well executed (i.e. landscape/portrait)
7 > an outstanding photograph fit for both study and pleasure, while allowing for minor technical shortcomings
8 > same as 7, but one that stimulates awareness and taxes the senses, technically flawless
9 > same as 8, but one that commotes 'perceived' reality to the point of restlessness and action
10 > a photo that challenges the order of gods and the world
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08/17/2003 03:33:27 PM · #32 |
Ave vote cast: 3.5
;)
I love how so many people find us so far below average, on average.
M
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08/17/2003 03:37:02 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by mavrik:
Ave vote cast: 3.5
;)
I love how so many people find us so far below average, on average.
M |
It may not be about 'average' votes. It's about votes, which is inclusive of a range.
Life is not about 'average' lives, is it?
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08/17/2003 07:24:00 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by shareinnc:
I am going to comment quickly here that receiving comments on photos is a great part of a challenge...
... I really keep entering shots with the ultimate hope that I'll get some good comments and maybe make some folks think.
Shari |
I think that it would help people to know exactly WHAT you find to be a good comment. I noticed that you aren't quick to mark comments as useful. Maybe by letting someone know that their comment was useful to you, might encourage them to make more. Just a thought. |
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08/17/2003 10:07:05 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by hbunch7187:
I think that it would help people to know exactly WHAT you find to be a good comment. I noticed that you aren't quick to mark comments as useful. Maybe by letting someone know that their comment was useful to you, might encourage them to make more. Just a thought. |
Honestly, I forget to mark them as useful not because they aren't but because a lot of times I read comments on my phone and it doesn't support the java script that marks them.
And for the record, I never said I wasn't getting enough comments, I merely mentioned that the comments which expect me to significantly change the structure and composition of my shot to make it what "they" would have taken are somewhat annoying.
I mean comments like this (and I don't mean to imply that I don't take things like this into account the next time I shoot)
"The patterns of colours in the background look haphazard, and don't add to the composition. The shadow looks a little harsh as a result of shooting in the midday sun"
The background was the water behind a sea lion. Not something I could change and honestly something I liked about the shot itself. The shadow was something else I could not change.
This discussion was begun by someone who posted a comment to one of my photos that asked for significant and undoable changes to the composition of my shot and ended with a somewhat condescending "good effort" type comment. I merely commented that such comments are somewhat annoying. It's kind of like armchair quarterbacking, something else I can't stand.
Comments that point out things someone liked or didn't like, comments that help me look at a subject a different way at a later time...those are the comments that I find "helpful." The ones that present themselves as a tutorial on how the commenter would have taken my photograph are the ones I was discussing here and I even learn from them, I just find them somewhat annoying.
As for how "lax" I am in marking comments helpful, I'll be honest...I'm learning more and more that the challenges here often are more about popularity (and that is popularity of images, concepts, presentations, not people...before folks start screaming that the challenges are annonymous) than creativity and skill and the "helpful" check is just one more part of that popularity contest. (I'll duck now as I know that's gonna stir a hornet's nest, but that's how I feel. The folks who leave comments for me that I find truly helpful or about which I have questions or wish to discuss, I contact them individually. I don't think they felt the check was necessary.)
Shari
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08/18/2003 02:06:58 PM · #36 |
Fair enough on the usefuls. You say that you find the comments good when people mention what they like or don't like, but then you complain that someone mentioned that they didn't like the shadow. Weather you can change it or not, doesn't mean someone has to like it.
I find those comments helpful as well. Honestly, had the shadow not been there, it might have been a better shot. Doesn't mean you could have fixed it, but non the less, would have improved had it NOT been there. Keeping in mind that I havent seen the shot, so I'm just generalizing.
I guess I figure that I don't have to agree with the comment to find it helpful. It's all about opinions. It is bothersome though when someone thinks that your "masterpiece" is nothing more than a snapshot. But if we were all the same, the world would be quite boring.
~Heather~
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08/18/2003 02:28:34 PM · #37 |
| IT'S OFFICIAL: dpc needs a noob thread. tack it to the top of the forum it gets put it and have it include the principles of voting and commenting, rules, new features things to help people get started. things people should and shouldn't do when they first get to the site. because i for one am really tired of all these threads that take up forum space when they could all possibly be put in one thread as a reference for new people on the site. that way noobs don't have to look stupid and get humiliated, and they can also prevent that from happening by learning the basics of dpc |
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08/18/2003 02:45:01 PM · #38 |
i been saying this since i got here : /
Originally posted by achiral:
IT'S OFFICIAL: dpc needs a noob thread. tack it to the top of the forum it gets put it and have it include the principles of voting and commenting, rules, new features things to help people get started. things people should and shouldn't do when they first get to the site. because i for one am really tired of all these threads that take up forum space when they could all possibly be put in one thread as a reference for new people on the site. that way noobs don't have to look stupid and get humiliated, and they can also prevent that from happening by learning the basics of dpc |
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08/18/2003 02:53:11 PM · #39 |
| well yeah, but i just made it official..LOL |
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08/18/2003 03:54:55 PM · #40 |
Sorry to keep this thread going as some people don't seem to be too fond of it. I just wanted to make a few comments after reviewing some of justesme's comments.
justesme: You are giving really really good feedback to people. If I received any of the comments you have given so far I would definetely mark it as helpful. You are clearly taking a lot of time and putting a lot of thought into them. I think the main problem with your comments, and something that a lot of people have mentioned in this thread already, but not directly about you, is that you end them with "Good Try." That comment, esp. at the end of such good feedback, will put a lot of people off, including myself. It's just rude. It's basically like saying the photo isn't good at all, even if you said nice things about it. There are cases where you say you loved a photo and mention there are little things that you would like changed. Are we supposed to believe that the photo's you're giving a 4 to would be an 8 or 9 with only small things changed. Stick with something like "Good job," or "Nice work," is alot better. In fact, "good try," is one of the most annoying phrases to hear in any circumstance, IMO. :)
Just my thoughts.
Jason |
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08/18/2003 04:34:19 PM · #41 |
| i have a feeling her "good try" has a slightly different meaning than the american "good try". maybe? |
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08/18/2003 04:54:29 PM · #42 |
| I just voted on the desolation challenge and I gave 20 photos 10!!! I think this challenge was awsome, the photos were really good and you should all be proud...I don´t vote under a 5 unless it is really bad...but it´s good to know that not everyone is throwing away the 10s...that would explain the ones and twos we are all getting .... well at least I tell myself that the real "good eyes" love my photos :) lol |
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08/18/2003 10:15:09 PM · #43 |
I know one thing for sure. The photos that are very good end up on the top, and the ones that are not very good end up on the bottom.
So it looks to me that despite the different scoring standards, it's hard to argue with the outcome. |
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08/18/2003 10:46:52 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by achiral:
i have a feeling her "good try" has a slightly different meaning than the american "good try". maybe? |
I think a Chinese Princess a few hundred years ago would have the same mindset of this nice teenager from Hong Kong. Patronising the peasants was considered an act of graciousness. I myself feel it an honor that she accused me of lying. |
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08/18/2003 11:01:05 PM · #45 |
Justes~I wouldn't change your voting or commenting. I think your comments are excellent. Keep it up!
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08/19/2003 01:20:05 AM · #46 |
Originally posted by clues56:
I know one thing for sure. The photos that are very good end up on the top, and the ones that are not very good end up on the bottom.
So it looks to me that despite the different scoring standards, it's hard to argue with the outcome. |
It looks to me, as if some very good ones end up on top, as you see it, whereas other very good ones end up on the bottom right next to those, which you consider 'not so good'. This concerns me.
This does, IMO, tie in perfectly with the different scoring methods as with stereotypical commenting. Standards are rarely articulated, pursued or desired or at least not consciously and collectively here, in my experience. I have had to reserve debates on matters like these to the few who share this interest, in a private mode.
What I can say, here, without fear of being squelched, is that some of us are notoriously 'sure' of what is 'good' or 'bad'. Some aren't. I belong to the latter group. I cannot 'rate' a particular photo on likes and dislikes alone. All I can do, in good conscience, is study it, choose one over another and compare whatever 'merits' I am sensitized and cultured enough to recognize. What I cannot recognize, I cannot 'weigh' or evaluate.
Much of my effort goes into very few photos. Where I feel I know my way, I can, indeed, be 'useful' and help a work that may otherwise go unnoticed or end up 'slammed' by the many. When I 'get' the gist of a work, when I recognize a shot or aspects of one as one relating experiences, gustos, pleasures, states of mind or matters of the heart, when I know this, then I can and should say what it is that makes it so. When I don't, all I can rightly do, is move on or make inquiries.
This, of course, does not apply to works of purely sentimental interests or those without a life of their own beyond the life of a particular challenge.
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08/19/2003 08:00:49 AM · #47 |
boy is that harsh.
let's try not to make ethnic, social, or generational generalizations.
thanks.
Originally posted by JimB:
Originally posted by achiral:
i have a feeling her "good try" has a slightly different meaning than the american "good try". maybe? |
I think a Chinese Princess a few hundred years ago would have the same mindset of this nice teenager from Hong Kong. Patronising the peasants was considered an act of graciousness. I myself feel it an honor that she accused me of lying. |
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