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08/12/2003 12:48:18 PM · #1 |
The current home page has, as usual, six pics:
the three best pics of the last two challenges.
While the quality of the photos is out of discussion (the "Forrest Gump" one left me ecstatic and it was my first favourite since I joined), the overall view of the six of them, grouped by three, triggered another nasty tought in my sick mind.
One challenge (Movies) stated:
"Your photograph should mimic a scene from a movie of your choice. Your photograph's title should be the title of the movie."
There was no mention that the photo should have been monocromatic and still the first three photos are in B/W. A coincidence? Maybe.
Then my eyes went on the second row, other three photos.
The challenge (In the garden) stated:
"Simple enough -- compose a photograph somehow related to the garden. Here's the catch... the main subject of your photograph may NOT be a flower."
There was no mention that a macro should be used, even less that an insect should be the main subject.
Well, the three best photos are macro shots of an insect!
Where is the point?
The point, indeed, maybe rather subtle.
Besides the evident quality of the pics, it could be that the community of voters is developing a quite narrow-minded behavior.
What better proof of those commonalities to show it?
Is DPC's community really open-minded and ready to accept diversity which, after all, is an essential gene of creativity?
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08/12/2003 12:53:37 PM · #2 |
| Or maybe these techniques suited these particular topics... |
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08/12/2003 12:53:41 PM · #3 |
What I found intersting, is that before around December last year, there had never been a black and white winner on DPC, in 43 challenge. Now they're quite common winners.
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08/12/2003 12:55:16 PM · #4 |
Originally posted by BobsterLobster:
Or maybe these techniques suited these particular topics... |
That is a third option and a very good one.
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08/12/2003 12:56:30 PM · #5 |
| Good point! These "coincidents" are becoming more and more obvious... Maybe we need to broaden our minds? |
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08/12/2003 12:58:09 PM · #6 |
The community is open in that each individual votes what he or she feels a photo deserves without having to be engaged by others or accept their direction or coersion. You should be able to click on any image and immediately see how many votes of each value it received. The Open Challenges are open to anyone that simply signs up. I can't see collusion or coercion. Perhaps someone takes artisitically significant photos and develops them into challenging images but the images just don't score well. That doesn't mean that the image can't have major impact on others or that it isn't artistically integral to our community. Likewise, any number of circumstances could lead a large group of people to favor one composition over another.
Personally, I would love to see some graduate student(s) do a study of voting trends in a volunteer community such as this. How often do the constituency comment on voting patterns/trends? What about someone evaluating winning photos over the last 50 challenges in regards to the wording selected.
I think those are interesting things to study and learn about our community but I still don't see how people aren't open to their own interpretation of someone's image since there is supposed to be no communicating which images belong to whom during the submission or voting phases of a challenge.
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08/12/2003 01:15:56 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by KevinRiggs:
I can't see collusion or coercion. |
I definitely need to clarify this issue.
My post and point in this specific thread has NOTHING to do with collusion or coercion.
It is a much more abstract idea and I would invite you to read something about the neo-science investigating on "Emergent Behaviors" to better understand what I was pointing at.
Basically, the technical definition of emergent behavior is behavior that occurred in a group without being directly caused by any single member of the group.
In the cases used as a sample, the group (of voters) showed a clear preference for b/w pics (in one case) and for macro-shots of insects (in the second case).
That preference was the natural outcome of many separated individual choices.
What is being questioned, is if the overall result (the emergent behavior) is a sign of developing a narrow-minded sensibility (which is a clear limit for creativity) or not.
Message edited by author 2003-08-12 13:17:02.
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08/12/2003 01:21:57 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by KevinRiggs:
Personally, I would love to see some graduate student(s) do a study of voting trends in a volunteer community such as this. How often do the constituency comment on voting patterns/trends? |
Every 4.3 nanoseconds. |
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08/12/2003 01:24:56 PM · #9 |
| The other thing I noticed before the Movies pics were posted was that the top 6 of the two challenges were all living creatures.. 3 animals and 3 insects. Makes me want to get a pet :) hmmm.. can you rent animals for the day... checking the yellow pages for Rent a Pet.. |
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08/12/2003 02:22:42 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by glimpses:
Originally posted by BobsterLobster:
Or maybe these techniques suited these particular topics... |
That is a third option and a very good one. |
Still having some naughty toughts, 'though.
Assuming that a topic should be satisfied with a specific technique is not another proof of narrow thinking and limited creativity?
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08/12/2003 02:51:13 PM · #11 |
I think the answer may be mathematical. When averages are based on a small sample of events(votes), deviant(artistic) results are more likely then mundane(technically excellent)... As the number of events(votes) grows larger, mainstream results are more and more probable.
Please understand I am not implying that the winners lately have not been artistic. Quite the opposite! It's just that "fringe art" will have a harder and harder time placing as more and more voters participate...
Of course I could be wrong and this could all have been a coincidence :)
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08/12/2003 03:48:41 PM · #12 |
Can't think of a 'fringe art' winner of any challenge here ever - that's the point of its being 'fringe' isn't it?
I have an answer to this phenomenon. As more people learn the ways of the site, and the kind of photography which wins ribbons here, this sort of thing is a mathematical inevitability. That's mathematics as in Chaos/Complexity Theory, rather than the statistical approach taken above, which is flawed.
Look at it like this: you enter fifteen or so challenges, and you never do particularly well - 4's and 5's, even getting to the edge of a 6, but neve really cracking it. You spend some time thinking about the process, and looking over previous winners and ribbon photos, and site favourites. Gradually the approaches taken by those photographers get imprinted on your mind, so that a mental phenomenon of a 'dpchallenge' photo is born. gradually you learn how to produce shots tat meet these often subconscious criteria, and your scores improve. At the same time, if you are not careful, your range as a photographer becomes more limited - but that's a side issue.
As people develop the idea of the 'dpchallenge' photo, so they are more inclined to vote highly for photos meeting those 'rules', and more inclined to submit photos also meeting those rules. Fundamentally this is a phenomenon known as 'convergence' - which is really a term stolen from evolutionary anthropolog. This photos meeting those rules will gain higher votes, and the cycle will continue - as more people will percieve that type of photo to be 'very good'. This explains the rise of the duotone or black and white.
However: things will change. Due to the dawning realisation that not everyone can win all the time, however closely they conform to the ideal model, those who do not win will become dissatisfied with the process, and begin to look askance at those forms of photography previously thought to have been 'dpchallenge photos' and start voting lower on them. meanwhile new people will arrive here who do not have the experiential baggage of those long-timers, and some of them will be very good photoraphers who will put new ideas into the pool of what makes a 'dpchallenge photo', and the previous 'type' will lose its hegemony, and the process will start again. This si actually from the physical model of turbulence, but that's probably irrelevant.
With aching brain
Ed
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08/12/2003 03:58:06 PM · #13 |
| weren't they black and white because the movies were black and white? forrest gump wasn't, but it had a monochromatic feel to it |
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08/12/2003 04:03:43 PM · #14 |
Member challenges winners are more quality and technically selected,in open challenges you have large number of people who are beginners { like myself} and they get amazed with rich color photos and well done macro shots!
That is what you see !
Message edited by author 2003-08-12 16:36:55.
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08/12/2003 04:34:22 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by fayepek:
The other thing I noticed before the Movies pics were posted was that the top 6 of the two challenges were all living creatures.. 3 animals and 3 insects. Makes me want to get a pet :) hmmm.. can you rent animals for the day... checking the yellow pages for Rent a Pet.. |
carefull what pet...
dogs, snakes, goats,llamas are fine cat pix get slamed.
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08/12/2003 04:39:59 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by myqyl:
It's just that "fringe art" will have a harder and harder time placing as more and more voters participate...
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"fringe art" I like that as a challenge topic....
fringe anyone?
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08/12/2003 04:44:58 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by joannadiva:
"fringe art" I like that as a challenge topic....
fringe anyone? |
But I don't have a fringe - just long straight hair with a few layers... It's not fair if I don't have a fringe!
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08/12/2003 04:49:09 PM · #18 |
More coincidences????
I noticed that the top three photos in Fill the Frame were close ups of animal faces.
And this one is really freaky... The top three finishes in the Nude challenge were of naked people!!
JD Anderson
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08/12/2003 05:06:43 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by e301:
... As more people learn the ways of the site, and the kind of photography which wins ribbons here, .... |
Well.. that is emergent behavior. Nothing wrong with it.
Also, it is basically impossible to make a forecast on if, when and how it will change.
The issue then was not about "fringe art" but how wide (or narrow) is the "angle" of appreciation (which wins ribbons).
That angle is gonna change somehow over time..
I believe that most, if not all of us, would like that angle to be as wider as possible.
Or maybe I just hope that the majority wants it to be wide, because so I want it. =)
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08/12/2003 05:16:53 PM · #20 |
I really like Ed's take on it, though my brain hurts too after reading it!
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08/12/2003 05:18:00 PM · #21 |
Start of thread:
Is DPC's community really open-minded and ready to accept diversity which, after all, is an essential gene of creativity?
This is questionable at times since the challenge advice is often "Have fun and be creative."
I think that technique and efficient photography is rewarded higher than the creative aspect per se - perhaps quite rightly, but sentimental or familiar subject matter seems to be quite common among those that rate highly.
That said, I'd love to be able to shoot stuff half as good as most of them!
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08/12/2003 06:30:48 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by glimpses:
The issue then was not about "fringe art" but how wide (or narrow) is the "angle" of appreciation (which wins ribbons).
That angle is gonna change somehow over time..
I believe that most, if not all of us, would like that angle to be as wider as possible.
Or maybe I just hope that the majority wants it to be wide, because so I want it. =) |
The sad fact is that if we had a challenge that read
"Outside The BoxThere are NO editing restrictions and NO date restrictions for this challenge. The sections "Post-shot Adjustments" and "Exposure Date" are not will not be considered for disqualification. This is basically no-holds-barred, so make it a good one! Photograph your interpretation of this challenge title. Be creative, and have fun..."
The debate for the week in the forums would be ... can the box be Photoshped. What kind of Filters are legal. what kind of box is acceptable do we need to show the box. Only pix with boxes meet challenge criteria. how bout if we just show wrapping. Any pic of a cat will be immediately scored lower....etc.... The cat must be exiting a box...
the fault isn't only the perceived narrow mindedness of the voters on this site but also the fact that many people here speak English as a second language and also come from other parts of the world that don't immediately understand the American colloquial slang often used in challenge descriptions such as "no holds bared" or "outside the box". our diversity is one of the things that make the site so fascinating and frustrating all at the same time.
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08/12/2003 06:46:50 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by joannadiva:
...our diversity is one of the things that make the site so fascinating and frustrating all at the same time... |
Initially I didn't get where were you going but, in the end, I actually loved your post (which added a new dimension to the thread).
I am gonna say something that may well rock some chair here and there (and I hope to do not end up on the "MOST WANTED" list of DPC) but basically your post let me understand that if you want to win ribbons on DPC your message must necessarily be UNIVERSAL.
That's a nice thing but here it comes the hidden sting.
All the winners of ribbons are universal (required attribute in order to win) but they have very different ways of being so.
In particular, some of them are originally universal while others are just trivially universal and they won a ribbon just because of the lack of original universality in that specific challenge.
Well, after this I hope that most of the ribbon winners are self-confident because all of them that are not will come after me!
It is very dangerous to partecipate to these forums!!!!!
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08/12/2003 07:51:00 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by joannadiva:
American colloquial slang often used in challenge descriptions such as "no holds bared" |
That was a different challenge! |
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08/12/2003 08:03:34 PM · #25 |
| Dontya worry,be phat, we speak Ibanics in here! |
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