Idea how to fix voting arguments

08/11/2003 11:10:18 AM · #26

Originally posted by jmsetzler:

Why don't we just remove '1' from the voting scale and vote 2-10 instead?

I'm hoping/ guessing you're being sarcastic but incase you aren't or incase it's lost on people... because then everyone will start complaining about getting six 2s on their submission instead.

The voting scale is 1 to 10 in order that voters can, if they choose, really rank the images in the submission in quite some detail.

I personally do use the whole scale. I wouldn't be happy to see it reduced to only 5 points as has been suggested before, and to simply change the numbers themselves to 2-11 or 3-12 serves no purpose that I can see.

I agree it's never nice to get 1s. And sometimes I look at a submission and I really can't understand why it has been rated that way by someone.

BUT I also know that my own views on images differ, sometimes radically, from those of many other voters. I've sometimes given 10s to images that have ranked very poorly and 1s to images that, evidently, others have found merit in.

My personal take (and it IS just a personal take, I don't feel any need to impose MY choices on all other voters) is that challenge theme is important on this site. That said I try and be as open minded as I can and I sometimes look hard for a way that the image could meet the challenge. However if I can't find the way it meets the challenge (note, I'm not saying "it doesn't" but am saying "I can't find the way it does") then I will vote accordingly. Nor do I think meeting the challenge is all - sometimes I see images from people who are so caught up in meeting the challenge they seem to forget that the image has to be a good/ appealing image in it's own right. If a picture is poorly executed or incredibly unappealing (to me) for whatever reason, I vote accordingly.

Thus, in my voting scale, for an image to receive a 1 from me, it has to be both poorly executed/ unappealing (to a strong degree) and fail to convince me that it's met the challenge in any conceivable way.

I have given 1s in the past.

Where I think that the photographer did think about their entry and just failed completely, I'll comment, but I often don't comment on my very lowest scorers because I sometimes feel they are entered with absolutely no effort or thought whatsoever (other than resizing them to fit the file size!).

I do try and comment on the images I give low but not bottom scores too, such as my 3s and 4s, where I think there is some merit to be recognised and where I feel I can make suggestions for improvement. Sometimes, for an image I have given a 1, I just can't think of anything polite to say....

Message edited by author 2003-08-11 11:12:34.

Sigma 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 DL Aspherical IF Hyperzoom for Canon

08/11/2003 11:12:00 AM · #27

Originally posted by jmsetzler:

If I was forced to comment on any photos based on the score I gave them, I would just make a 'nice shot' comment and move on.

Lazy boy!

craigant

Nikon D70

08/11/2003 11:13:11 AM · #28

Originally posted by glimpses:

Originally posted by craigant:
Why is everyone being so precious lately? Come on how about we all grow a skin and get over our egos about getting a few 1s on our picture submissions. I was reading a thread titled â��Six oneâ��sâ�¦.why?â�� This person was complaining that their picture got six ones, however I noticed it also got six tens. I donâ��t believe there is any need to change the voting system. If we look at the total votes it should be obvious that the 1s we get for our precious pictures are cancelled out by the 10s that we receive at the opposite end. Also if 6 voters out of 200 voters or 3% hate the picture then 97% is not a bad approval rate hey? Does anyone else agree?

No will of being offensive, but please let me say that your interpretation of maths is a little bit naive. =)

6 as a percentage of 200 is 3%? 6 1s and 6 10s, 12 votersâ�¦â�¦â�¦6+60=66? 66/12=5.5? So wouldnâ��t the 10s more than cancel out the 1s? What part of my mathâ��s do you think is naive?

Message edited by author 2003-08-11 11:16:29.

rickhd13

Canon EOS-20D

08/11/2003 11:16:42 AM · #29

Originally posted by jmsetzler:

If I was forced to comment on any photos based on the score I gave them, I would just make a 'nice shot' comment and move on.

I agree with this thought...there really is no way to require a comment and expect it to be an in-depth critique of the persons work.

Unless part of the membership guidelines for DPC require you to do a critique on a certain number of entries, say 5 entries. You could do more at your discretion, but you would be required to do 5. And they should be good critiques, not just the obligatory "nice shot"...something like PhotoSig went to where the critiques have to be a certain length or they don't count toward the requirement.

Sigma 15mm f/2.8 EX Diagonal Fisheye for Nikon

08/11/2003 11:18:40 AM · #30

Originally posted by craigant:

Originally posted by glimpses:
Originally posted by craigant:
Why is everyone being so precious lately? Come on how about we all grow a skin and get over our egos about getting a few 1s on our picture submissions. I was reading a thread titled â��Six oneâ��sâ�¦.why?â�� This person was complaining that their picture got six ones, however I noticed it also got six tens. I donâ��t believe there is any need to change the voting system. If we look at the total votes it should be obvious that the 1s we get for our precious pictures are cancelled out by the 10s that we receive at the opposite end. Also if 6 voters out of 200 voters or 3% hate the picture then 97% is not a bad approval rate hey? Does anyone else agree?

No will of being offensive, but please let me say that your interpretation of maths is a little bit naive. =)

4 as a percentage of 200 is 3%? 6 1s and 6 10s, 12 votersâ�¦â�¦â�¦6+60=66? 66/12=5.5? So wouldnâ��t the 10s more than cancel out the 1s? What part of my mathâ��s do you think is naive?

In pure mathematical terms, it is naive because it does not consider the probability to have the same number of 1s and 10s in a session.

Assuming that both 1s and 10s are produced by different people.

My concern, however, moved away from the maths aspect.

I tried to express in my previous messages in this thread that 1s are as good as 10s (and as any other vote in-between) as long as they are not produced maliciously.

muckpond

Nikon D200

08/11/2003 11:19:27 AM · #31

Originally posted by glimpses:

Originally posted by jmsetzler:
If I was forced to comment on any photos based on the score I gave them, I would just make a 'nice shot' comment and move on.

Lazy boy!

John's been here for 16 months and left almost 6000 comments (an average of 372 per month). You've been here one month and left 3 comments.

i think i'll take his opinions about the scoring issues pretty seriously.

rob

jmsetzler

Sony Alpha a6000

Sony 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 E-mount

08/11/2003 11:21:59 AM · #32

Ask yourself if you want a 'forced' comment. To me, a comment that is not inspired by the photo itself is worthless.

Canon EOS-20D

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

08/11/2003 11:22:35 AM · #33

If people who give 1's are forced to comment, then I think that people who complain about getting them should be forced to not enter.

08/11/2003 11:24:45 AM · #34

Originally posted by jmsetzler:

Ask yourself if you want a 'forced' comment. To me, a comment that is not inspired by the photo itself is worthless.

I agree 100% with this...

08/11/2003 11:25:54 AM · #35

Originally posted by mk:

If people who give 1's are forced to comment, then I think that people who complain about getting them should be forced to not enter.

Good one! LOL But that would exclude pretty much EVERYONE! Do we have ANY photographers here who have never got a 1 on any entry?

craigant

Nikon D70

08/11/2003 11:27:42 AM · #36

Originally posted by mk:

If people who give 1's are forced to comment, then I think that people who complain about getting them should be forced to not enter.

Well said

pitsaman

Canon EOS-30D

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

08/11/2003 11:27:53 AM · #37

Originally posted by mk:

If people who give 1's are forced to comment, then I think that people who complain about getting them should be forced to not enter.

Tamron AF 18-200 f/3.5-6.3 XR Di II

08/11/2003 11:28:18 AM · #38

Originally posted by muckpond:

Originally posted by glimpses:
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
If I was forced to comment on any photos based on the score I gave them, I would just make a 'nice shot' comment and move on.

Lazy boy!

John's been here for 16 months and left almost 6000 comments (an average of 372 per month). You've been here one month and left 3 comments.

i think i'll take his opinions about the scoring issues pretty seriously.

rob

I really find difficult to reply to you in this case... I mean it was a clear joke and I am 100% sure (looking at the high standards of his photography) that John is intelligent enough to get it.. so.. what is your defence for??
Do not let me think that you are John's bodyguard!

fleenk

Nikon D70

08/11/2003 11:31:50 AM · #39

I think the voting evens out in the long run. In every aspect of life you have those that feel a need to manipulate in order to win, no matter how small the prize, if any. I can't really understand the satisfaction it brings, however, its part of life, here as well as anywhere else. I do think though, that we all have different guidelines when it comes to voting. Perhaps a suggested guideline for voting might bring us all a little closer in sync.

Judy

spiller

Nikon Coolpix 990

08/11/2003 11:34:49 AM · #40

Originally posted by craigant:

Why is everyone being so precious lately? Come on how about we all grow a skin and get over our egos about getting a few 1s on our picture submissions. I was reading a thread titled â��Six oneâ��sâ�¦.why?â�� This person was complaining that their picture got six ones, however I noticed it also got six tens. I donâ��t believe there is any need to change the voting system. If we look at the total votes it should be obvious that the 1s we get for our precious pictures are cancelled out by the 10s that we receive at the opposite end. Also if 6 voters out of 200 voters or 3% hate the picture then 97% is not a bad approval rate hey? Does anyone else agree?

100%

08/11/2003 11:39:17 AM · #41

For those interested, here follows a rough guide to my voting scale:

1 Photos I really donâ��t like at all and totally donâ��t fit the theme for me in any way, shape or form
2 Very poor technically or very dull or do not meet challenge IMO
3 Donâ��t grab me at ALL, composition/ photo quality not great
4 Donâ��t appeal to me content wise but arent bad photos per se or do appeal minimally but are poor technically
5 Reasonable attempts, are more than just photos of something/ anything
6 Photos that hold some attraction for me, reasonably taken â�� either not very high appeal or not technically as good as they could be
7 Photos that appeal to me, nicely taken, interesting/ relevant subject matter, technically reasonably good
8 Still up there in my top favourites, a level below 9 and 10, technically good
9 Love it as much as a 10 but itâ��s tecnically not quite as good or itâ��s technically superb and I like it a lot but not quite as much as a 10
10 Absolutely LOVE it and technically excellent as well as meeting the challenge IMO. Has a LOT of appeal â�� would like to own it!

Canon EF 28-105mm f/3.5-4.5 II USM

08/11/2003 11:40:23 AM · #42

Originally posted by fleenk:

I like your observation but I only partially agree with it.
In the sense that.. everything evens out in the very long run but we, mortals, just may not have the time to wait for it.

autool

Canon EOS-20D

08/11/2003 11:46:39 AM · #43

This whole thread reminds me of the guy that moved to the country to get away from all of the City requirements and ordinances. After a few months he couldn't see eye with his neighbor so he wanted to hold a "town" meeting to adopt some rules that every one would have to abide by.

My point is each of us knew what the voting guidelines were when we came here, and they have been working quite well, so why in Hell do we want to change them? Maybe all of the threads on this subject should be required reading before making a submission to the first challenge. :<)

muckpond

Nikon D200

Sigma 15mm f/2.8 EX Diagonal Fisheye for Nikon

08/11/2003 12:16:04 PM · #44

Originally posted by glimpses:

I apologize, and I speak for no one but myself. And I'm pretty sure John doesn't need a bodyguard.

I am just continuously frustrated by the number of relative newcomers here who immediately want to change the site to suit themselves without letting things be long enough to realize that the system we have in place really does work.

I meant nothing untoward to you and I'm sorry if I sound harsh. I just wish people would spend as much time looking at (and commenting on) photographs as they do complaining about the site.

That being said, I'm off to submit some more critiques.

Rob

Message edited by author 2003-08-11 12:16:37.

08/11/2003 12:30:37 PM · #45

Yep, I just did a tranche (is that the word) of comments for Inside Out. Hope some of them prove useful to the recipients.

08/11/2003 12:39:10 PM · #46

Originally posted by muckpond:

system we have in place really does work.

I am with you. I mean: since I joined I stated very clearly that this is the best site on the subject I ever saw.

I also understand your feeling for newcomers, but I hope you will be more tolerant considering that we do this just to have fun.
I mean.. would this thread have been so enjoyable without the mix of passionate and hilarious posts? I don't think so! =)

Sonifo

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6

08/11/2003 12:44:44 PM · #47

Originally posted by jmsetzler:

Ask yourself if you want a 'forced' comment. To me, a comment that is not inspired by the photo itself is worthless.

The only way your going to be forced is if you choose to give a 1-3. That isn't to bad if you think about it, unless you give a lot of them!

bruster54

Canon EOS-600D/T3i Rebel

Canon EF 100-300mm f/5.6

08/11/2003 12:47:34 PM · #48

I too have been concerned about scores and getting "1's"...BUT WHAT IS THE SITE ABOUT? Scores and ribbons, or learning have to be a better photographer and seeing the great work others can produce! Just a questions!