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06/11/2007 07:28:51 PM · #1126 |
Originally posted by rheverly:
/open rant/
Grrrr. I'm not growling at my scores, they get what they get. But why do some commenters, who are generally good hearted (I know, not all of them, but most are trying to help), put their comments in objective form? I made a choice in my candid image. Someone says it would be "better" if "these elements" (no, not real quotes) weren't there. Guess what? I want those elements, just as they are, in my photo. I don't want it "improved" in the way they suggest; if it were changed, it wouldn't be a "better" photo, it would be a different photo!
I probably did this some when I first arrived here, but since then I've tried to phrase my comments in terms of my opinions and likes/dislikes, often explicitly putting those words in a comment. You miss so much when you assume you see what the original photographer missed, especially in a challenge!
Grrrrr. If you don't like it, say so; but please don't ask me to make it what you think it should be!
/close rant/ |
I empathize with your frustration - sometimes it is down to choice of words. I can understand if someone doesn't like the image for such and such a reason, but to suggest to add or subtract major elements does have a whiff of telling you to take a picture as if it were taken by someone else. It's very likely no one means to be insulting with those types of suggestions, but it sure can feel that way when you're on the receiving end of them (and yes, I'm probably guilty of a few of those ill-phrased comments too).
sympathetic *grrrr* back :) |
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06/11/2007 07:36:56 PM · #1127 |
I'm anxiously awaiting the  posthumous list of ideas for backsides. |
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06/11/2007 07:41:59 PM · #1128 |
| And I need some more of those 10's for my candid. |
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06/11/2007 08:28:09 PM · #1129 |
Originally posted by quiet_observation:
I'm anxiously awaiting the posthumous list of ideas for backsides. |
=the end of a day full of bad news.
=a bird hanging upside down.
=the empty glass of your third drink.
=the last day of your family's compromise vacation.
=the dream that wakes you up.
=Jessica Lopez pre-surgery. |
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06/11/2007 10:07:15 PM · #1130 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Jessica Lopez pre-surgery. |
Actually, it's Jennifer.....
Are there any other weird white folks here that watched and loved "In Living Color" before anyone had heard of the Wayans and Jennifer was a Flygirl?
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06/11/2007 10:13:07 PM · #1131 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by posthumous:
Jessica Lopez pre-surgery. |
Actually, it's Jennifer.....
Are there any other weird white folks here that watched and loved "In Living Color" before anyone had heard of the Wayans and Jennifer was a Flygirl? |
"In Living Color" was my favorite show when it first aired!
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06/11/2007 10:19:56 PM · #1132 |
Originally posted by meyers:
"In Living Color" was my favorite show when it first aired! |
I loved the way that opening theme song just kind of ramped up and made ya wanna dance!
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06/11/2007 11:00:07 PM · #1133 |
Kashi and Purpleflutterby: I know of the "almost 6" syndrome - I have 5 scores of 5.9-5.999999 :)
Kashi: hope his surgery goes well!
As for scores vs. improving ... I guess it depends on what you're looking for. If you're trying to find a shot that will most impress the most people on DPC, then improving does mean higher DPC scores.
Once you get the technicals down, I think it's a matter of artistic choice. I don't think that shooting for a high score is "selling out" - it's just a choice you make.
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06/11/2007 11:16:34 PM · #1134 |
In Living Color, also the launchpad for Jim Carrey, who was the token white on the show.
And Jeffrey, this is the week to sell out. Beat the Ribbon Hogs!!! :) |
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06/11/2007 11:22:15 PM · #1135 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
In Living Color, also the launchpad for Jim Carrey, who was the token white on the show. |
His cover of Vanilla Ice's song, "White, White Baby" was hilarious!. I have season 1 on dvd...
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06/11/2007 11:28:38 PM · #1136 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
And Jeffrey, this is the week to sell out. Beat the Ribbon Hogs!!! :) |
We're basking in our two days of being in the lead, and I think that's going to have to be good enough. :) Sadly, I'm not contributing anything scorewise, but I have a feeling some folks will appreciate my artistic choice in Why. At least I hope so, because they sure aren't appreciating it in scoring at the moment!
Message edited by author 2007-06-11 23:29:31.
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06/12/2007 12:06:41 AM · #1137 |
Not much in the way for challenge entries for me this week, but while I was out last weekend I finally saw one of these:
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06/12/2007 02:28:55 AM · #1138 |
Originally posted by levyj413:
Kashi and Purpleflutterby: I know of the "almost 6" syndrome - I have 5 scores of 5.9-5.999999 :)
Kashi: hope his surgery goes well!
As for scores vs. improving ... I guess it depends on what you're looking for. If you're trying to find a shot that will most impress the most people on DPC, then improving does mean higher DPC scores. |
Scores do mean you've impressed DPC voters, and yes, that's a fine goal to have. But low scores don't necessarily mean it's a bad image, and they also do not really give you any help toward improving. They simply say, "We, a bunch of DPC voters, gave this image a low score." Raw scores can never tell you why, and can never do more than motivate you to figure out why. They can be a reality check, but little more than that. That's not learning, in my book, and it doesn't help with improvement. That would require constructive critiques.
That's how I read Don's comment, anyway.
Best,
Rob |
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06/12/2007 03:09:29 AM · #1139 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
And Jeffrey, this is the week to sell out. Beat the Ribbon Hogs!!! :) |
I did my best selling out for this past week's challenge - not good enough to go hogwashing in the end, but good enough to have a lead for two whole days!
Agree with Rob on the scores thing. Every once in awhile I get a very good score on a shot I really, really like, but I figure that's just dumb luck more than anything else. My shot with the highest number of favs here scored in the mid-5s. One of my all time personal favorites scored much, much lower than that, and is actually a very decent photograph, I might add.
Gotta ask - Don, are you just having fun with the SC or do you truly think we should be able to burn the crap out of backgrounds, eliminating any and all detail and context? |
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06/12/2007 04:41:51 AM · #1140 |
Originally posted by rheverly:
Grrrrr. If you don't like it, say so; but please don't ask me to make it what you think it should be!
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Some thoughts on this. I don't think commenters are asking you to make your shot something it isn't, but stating why they might like it better. That's a matter of personal taste/vision. I get comments like "did you try this" or "I'd like it better without...". Perfectly valid and I don't take offense at all. I may try it or I may not. Generally I'm happy with it the way it is, but accept that it doesn't work for everybody. While you may not want to hear "but I'd like it better if..." that may be just what someone else was trying to decide about a shot and it may give them a new way to see something they hadn't thought of.
So my advice - take a look at what they've suggested. If you don't agree, that's fine. Say thanks (check the box) and move on. Don't let it get to you - I'm sure it's not meant to criticize your choice, but to express a choice of their own. Hope this makes sense! |
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06/12/2007 05:56:52 AM · #1141 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
Originally posted by rheverly:
Grrrrr. If you don't like it, say so; but please don't ask me to make it what you think it should be!
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Some thoughts on this. I don't think commenters are asking you to make your shot something it isn't, but stating why they might like it better. That's a matter of personal taste/vision. I get comments like "did you try this" or "I'd like it better without...". Perfectly valid and I don't take offense at all. I may try it or I may not. Generally I'm happy with it the way it is, but accept that it doesn't work for everybody. While you may not want to hear "but I'd like it better if..." that may be just what someone else was trying to decide about a shot and it may give them a new way to see something they hadn't thought of.
So my advice - take a look at what they've suggested. If you don't agree, that's fine. Say thanks (check the box) and move on. Don't let it get to you - I'm sure it's not meant to criticize your choice, but to express a choice of their own. Hope this makes sense! |
Exactly what I do. "I might have liked it better" or "I might have tried" or "you might try (but it might not work)" type comments. What I'm getting this challenge is:
"This would work if ____, but you haven't done ____, so it's wrong."
Sure, I can read "I think" in front of that; I know that's their point of view. But what it doesn't show me is that they know this. They think they've found an objective flaw; "The photographer must not have seen that," they think. "Boy are they a bad photographer to have missed that. I better set them straight."
I take all suggestions and helpful criticisms; I actually do want to learn here. What I'm grring about is people who think they've spotted some objective flaw in a shot, and treat it as such. Those comments I'd rather not have. I know how to put together an image that doesn't have those elements in it, arranged in that way, and that's the assumption people should be making (not assuming I missed it or didn't know how to do it any "better"). Where they offer an alternative, that's very much appreciated. Whether they like the image or not is a personal choice I won't argue with; where they think they've found objective flaw, that I will.
Done now (I think).
Best,
Rob |
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06/12/2007 08:59:12 AM · #1142 |
Originally posted by rheverly:
"This would work if ____, but you haven't done ____, so it's wrong."
Sure, I can read "I think" in front of that; I know that's their point of view. But what it doesn't show me is that they know this. They think they've found an objective flaw; "The photographer must not have seen that," they think. "Boy are they a bad photographer to have missed that. I better set them straight."
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This kind of reminds me of "Did you score less than 6.0? I'll give you a critique!" Therefore, I must be an expert because I've learned how to please the DPC voters.
When I give a comment where I find something that doesn't agree with me, I TRY to say that this is just my opinion because I'm certainly not an expert.
I still haven't learned how to please the masses. Thanks to Team Spleen though, I am trying to learn to not care. |
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06/12/2007 09:05:45 AM · #1143 |
Originally posted by bmartuch:
Originally posted by rheverly:
"This would work if ____, but you haven't done ____, so it's wrong."
Sure, I can read "I think" in front of that; I know that's their point of view. But what it doesn't show me is that they know this. They think they've found an objective flaw; "The photographer must not have seen that," they think. "Boy are they a bad photographer to have missed that. I better set them straight."
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This kind of reminds me of "Did you score less than 6.0? I'll give you a critique!" Therefore, I must be an expert because I've learned how to please the DPC voters.
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When stdavidson gives these out, I've found his comments to be very useful and constructive. It could be that these commenters figure if you got over a 6, you have plenty of comments already.
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06/12/2007 09:09:55 AM · #1144 |
Originally posted by bmartuch:
This kind of reminds me of "Did you score less than 6.0? I'll give you a critique!" Therefore, I must be an expert because I've learned how to please the DPC voters. |
Bob, that's someone who's responding to the NUMEROUS threads and requests from people who don't score highly asking for feedback on why not. It's not someone arrogantly declaring themselves the expert on what makes a good photo.
That's also someone who's doing their best to try to help people who want it. If YOU don't care about DPC scores, then don't post in those threads asking for comments. But don't ascribe bad intentions to the people who offer their time to help people who do care, and who do want to score better.
Originally posted by rheverly:
Scores do mean you've impressed DPC voters, and yes, that's a fine goal to have. But low scores don't necessarily mean it's a bad image, and they also do not really give you any help toward improving. They simply say, "We, a bunch of DPC voters, gave this image a low score." Raw scores can never tell you why, and can never do more than motivate you to figure out why. |
I agree with all of that!
However, keep in mind that artistically breaking general guidelines can make your photo look like you just picked up a camera, depending on how you do it. So just take comments lacking "I think" in front as someone who's taking the time to try to help someone it appears doesn't know what they're doing.
If you want comments, then give the people leaving them a little slack. They're taking time out of their lives to make the comment, so if they don't remember the softening language, why do you care? Just look for the nuggets and ignore the tone.
No matter what you do, someone complains about it. And then people wonder why they don't get comments.
Message edited by author 2007-06-12 09:13:12.
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06/12/2007 10:06:05 AM · #1145 |
I agree, when StDavidson or DrAchoo (I think doc did it first) offer comments for mid-range scoring images, it's for the people in the middle who often don't get comments. It can be incredibly helpful, as it was the one time I used it. I always assumed it was offered because these were the shots that had the fewest spontaneous/in-challenge comments. I've considered doing this myself, and my average is below 5.5; not an expert thing, more of a help offered thing to those casting about for a reason.
Good points have been made on the subject of my rant; it was primarily frustration at the phrasing of the particular comment, which to me still reads fairly harshly that I just didn't know what I was doing (as if there was no way anyone in their right mind could choose what I chose; of course, I'm not saying I'm in my right mind, but still). If commenters want to be appreciated so as to justify their time in commenting, they should think a bit more about their comments and how they are phrased before leaving them. Do I want comments? I guess so. Do I want comments that give me the feeling the person leaving them doesn't think I have a clue? Um, no thanks.
What's somewhat funny about this to me is that this shot is getting some of the most directly negative comments during voting of any challenge I've entered; yet, right now it looks possible (though far from definite) to be on my profile page at the end of the challenge (it's at 5.73 and my number 5 is 5.71).
DPC sure can be a strange place sometimes!
Best,
Rob
P.S. Please do take my rant for what it was; a rant. Let's not let it get too drawn out when we could talk about philosophy or what we're going to be shooting next! |
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06/12/2007 10:14:04 AM · #1146 |
Originally posted by rheverly:
Rob
P.S. Please do take my rant for what it was; a rant. Let's not let it get too drawn out when we could talk about philosophy or what we're going to be shooting next! |
Don't mention PHILOSOPHY!!! hehehehehehehehehe
and I agree.... I take ALL comments with a grain of salt (and some not at all!) and a few I even try and apply to an image to see if it is what I want!!
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06/12/2007 10:20:30 AM · #1147 |
here we go again...D'OH!!!
Painting With Light III
Votes: 149
Views: 234
Avg Vote: 5.9329
Comments: 7
Favorites: 1
Candid IV
Votes: 64
Views: 93
Avg Vote: 4.5469
Comments: 5
*stomping off to find brick wall to bang head against*
I know scores don't really count, but - *bang bang* it's sooo annoying when a pic (PWL) starts out so well and then sinks so drastically *bang bang BANG*...well at least Candid is where I anticipated it would be.
Grr...
btw Jeffrey I think it was just me and purple whining about almost 6ish scores, don't think Kashi was. Wrong Canadian! (Yeah, I know, we all look alike :-))
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06/12/2007 10:35:31 AM · #1148 |
Nope, no whining here today.
Why
Votes: 162
Views: 226
Avg Vote: 6.2716
Comments: 11
Candid IV
Votes: 68
Views: 122
Avg Vote: 5.3676
Comments: 3
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06/12/2007 10:53:42 AM · #1149 |
I don't believe this...
PWL
Votes: 152
Views: 237
Avg Vote: 5.9211
Comments: 7
Favorites: 1
Perhaps the best pic I've ever entered in competition and this is as good as it gets?!
btw where's the results thread? its vanished from my forums list.
Message edited by author 2007-06-12 10:55:00. |
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06/12/2007 10:56:08 AM · #1150 |
Originally posted by snaffles:
Jeffrey I think it was just me and purple whining about almost 6ish scores, don't think Kashi was. |
Oops, sorry, Kashi. :)
On the subject of scores dropping or climbing, I strongly suggest that you not look at scores until 24 hours have passed.
It's too tempting to think "YAHOO! A 7.0 after 3 votes" or "I've got a 7!" You don't have any score until rollover. Similarly, don't worry if the first night's scores are low.
The sample size is just too low, and single votes change things too much, to be worth considering.
Once 24 hours have gone by, I find most scores stay within 0.3 or so most of the time.
Susan: here's the Painting with Light scores thread.
Message edited by author 2007-06-12 10:57:49.
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