excellent play with dof: how? - DPChallenge Forums

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 17-55mm f/2.8G IF-ED

05/25/2007 11:58:02 AM · #1

how did they do it?
herringbone ads
look at the photos on the main page. they all are wonderful,
but my fave is of the woman under the parapluie.
it has such a wonderuful dof!! how did the photographer do this?
I see the face and the top of the umbrella are on the same plan, but when i tried it at home, tried to focus only on the face, the rest was blurred.
maybe there are two photos combined? one with focus on the face and another one with the umbrella?

(or maybe I failed because it's hard to focus in a SP:)

what do you think?
thank you!!

Cutter

Nikon D700

05/25/2007 12:06:22 PM · #2

Okay I just saw it. The face is actually a touch soft. So they probably focused on the face, pulled back the shallow (1.8? maybe) lens a bit, so the umbrella plane is ultimate focus. The photos are classy, but certainly repeatable.

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6G VR

05/25/2007 12:15:25 PM · #3

Originally posted by Cutter:

The photos are classy, but certainly repeatable.

agree.

thank you! I thought the face is soft, too but it is nice somehow.
i'll experiment more.

Message edited by author 2007-05-25 12:16:39.

RainMotorsports

Nikon D60

05/25/2007 12:15:48 PM · #4

You can also increase the shallow dof effect in photoshop to an extent. However the examples of it ive seen didnt look as good as id expect.

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6G VR

05/25/2007 12:17:25 PM · #5

Originally posted by RainMotorsports:

You can also increase the shallow dof effect in photoshop to an extent. However the examples of it ive seen didnt look as good as id expect.

yeah, i've been trying it, too, but never like the results.
the best is to create it in camera.

RainMotorsports

Nikon D60

05/25/2007 12:20:26 PM · #6

The 50 1.8 on my SLR does a gret job of course. But its manual focus I have trouble getting the focus and DOF correct on it.

Using a Canon Rebel T2 in A-Dep mode i have quite a bit more luck due to the auto focus and automatic depth of field.

Personally the autofocus helps the most i can do Av mode and get the rest done myself.

quiet_observation

Canon EOS-7D

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

05/25/2007 12:21:53 PM · #7

Try a view camera.

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

05/25/2007 12:24:37 PM · #8

Originally posted by quiet_observation:

Try a view camera.

what is a view camera?

yeah, 1.4 on my 50mm is great, too. I was just wondering how they were able to focus on two different points at the same time.

TechnoShroom

Canon EOS-30D

05/25/2007 02:47:28 PM · #9

Originally posted by silverfoxx:

Originally posted by quiet_observation:
Try a view camera.

what is a view camera?

This would be one example.

kirbic

Canon EOS R5

Canon RF 24-70mm f/2.8 L IS

05/25/2007 03:48:07 PM · #10

I see the one you are referring to... looks like a relatively long focal length at large aperture. The umbrella is over her right (far) shoulder, so the plane of focus cuts through it on the near side of the shaft. The plane continues down, through her face/near shoulder.
It does look like the photog missed focus slightly; the face seems to be slightly behind the plane of focus.
A lot of the images use that very thin DoF, and they do use it to good advantage. I quite like many of the shots.

05/25/2007 04:29:20 PM · #11

Originally posted by silverfoxx:

how did they do it?
herringbone ads
... my fave is of the woman under the parapluie.
it has such a wonderuful dof!! how did the photographer do this?
I see the face and the top of the umbrella are on the same plan, but when i tried it at home, tried to focus only on the face, the rest was blurred.
maybe there are two photos combined? one with focus on the face and another one with the umbrella?

(or maybe I failed because it's hard to focus in a SP:)

what do you think?

We have no way of knowing what lens, the distance from lens to subject or camera settings were used by the photographer. But if you tried this at home and no part of the umbrella was in focus that can only mean that no part of the umbrella was at the same distance from the lens as the model's face. Physics and nothing else explains that. Place some part of the umbrella and face at the same distance from the camera and lens and both will be in focus.

Now the DOF you get surrounding face and umbrella is a different story. That depends on lens focal length, distance to subject and aperture. Those are the things you need to experiment with.

Message edited by author 2007-05-25 16:30:42.

wavelength

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D

05/25/2007 04:37:52 PM · #12

Originally posted by stdavidson:

Now the DOF you get surrounding face and umbrella is a different story. That depends on lens focal length, distance to subject and aperture. Those are the things you need to experiment with.

And the size of the film/sensor. Medium format film/sensor will have shallower DOF than your 5d, at the same aperture and (equivalent) focal lengths, I think.

05/25/2007 04:50:02 PM · #13

Originally posted by wavelength:

Originally posted by stdavidson:

Now the DOF you get surrounding face and umbrella is a different story. That depends on lens focal length, distance to subject and aperture. Those are the things you need to experiment with.

And the size of the film/sensor. Medium format film/sensor will have shallower DOF than your 5d, at the same aperture and (equivalent) focal lengths, I think.

aha!
I didn't know that.

thank you so much for your answers! I'll experiment more.

jbsmithana

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 12-24mm f/4.0G IF-ED

05/25/2007 05:02:31 PM · #14

Damn, itâ��s scary to think how good she'll be when she learns all this stuff. Just look at her work now!

05/25/2007 05:11:31 PM · #15

Originally posted by wavelength:

Wow... I have to disagree with this.

Sensor/film size has nothing to do with DOF. Unfortunately, camera manufacturers would have us believe that just because their sensor sizes are smaller than 35mm or medium or large format that we should think in terms of their sizes instead of traditional sizes.

Lenses of a specific focal length have nothing more than a difference in field of view for smaller or larger sensor/film sizes. That is ALL.

There are only two real issues:
1-The field of view and the amount of actual image data collected is greater for 35mm and larger formats than most dSLRs.
2-Lens manufacturers will build fewer corrections for lens distortions into lenses designed for smaller formats than they do for ones designed for larger ones BECAUSE the field of view is narrower. This includes such things as vignetting, spherical and chromatic aberrations.

In other words, lenses designed for small sensors have more defects and therefore don't work as well on larger format cameras.

Small sensors are no more than collectors of data from a narrow field of view. Nothing more, nothing less. Larger format cameras just have wider fields of view from which to collect data and more places to put it. Some photographers think collecting more data on a larger sensor/film area is a good thing.

Today's camera manufacturers would have us think differently to increase their sales.

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8

05/25/2007 05:15:25 PM · #16

Originally posted by stdavidson:

hmmm, who should i believe now?:)
how can i find out if a lens is good for my camera?

thank you J.B. !! :)

pcody

Canon PowerShot G6

05/25/2007 05:27:29 PM · #17

I'm not a scientist, but wouldn't a lens say, 50mm f1.8 on a medium format camera have less dof than a 50mm f1.8 on a 35mm camera? I would think the light is spread onto a larger plane and that would affect the dof. Wouldn't the math involve ratios of focal length/size of film plane?

Canon RF 24-70mm f/2.8 L IS

05/25/2007 05:32:31 PM · #18

Originally posted by pcody:

No... DOF is a range of distance of acceptable focus. It is a function of lens focal length, distance from lens to object and aperture. Sensor size is not a variable in that function.

Lens aberrations, on the other hand, are functions of the focal plane size.

Those are different concepts.

kirbic

Canon EOS R5

05/25/2007 05:40:39 PM · #19

People will debate the format vs. DoF thing endlessly, and there are some very complicated arguments to be made that involve quite a bit of math. To confuse things even more, the answer you get depends on your initial assumptions regarding subject distance, framing, and the definition of the CoC, or "circle of confusion." How aptly named is the CoC? that's all it seems to generate is confusion!

All you *really* need to remember is this:
- For a given camera and subject framing, the only thing that substantively affects the DoF is the f-stop. Even focal length is a non-factor. You're compensating for focal length by reframing (moving back for longer lens).
- If you use the same focal length lens on an APS-C cam and again on a 35mm cam, use the same f-stop and frame the same, the 35mm camera will have smaller DoF, because the subject distance must be less for the same framing.

The second point assumes the same CoC, which is not exactly true. But as a first approximation, it's pretty accurate. Additionally, the CoC for a given format is not a constant, but depends on additional assumptions.

As a practical consideration, you will most easily achieve narrow DoF at comfortable distances with moderately long focal lengths. Try 85mm, 100mm, or 135mm. If you're not worried about running out of room to back up, perhaps the best available lens is the Canon 135mm f/2.0 L. It's also one of the best values in L glass.

Message edited by author 2007-05-25 17:52:25.

wavelength

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D

05/25/2007 05:41:57 PM · #20

Originally posted by stdavidson:

Originally posted by wavelength:

Originally posted by stdavidson:

Now the DOF you get surrounding face and umbrella is a different story. That depends on lens focal length, distance to subject and aperture. Those are the things you need to experiment with.

And the size of the film/sensor. Medium format film/sensor will have shallower DOF than your 5d, at the same aperture and (equivalent) focal lengths, I think.

Wow... I have to disagree with this.

Sensor/film size has nothing to do with DOF. Unfortunately, camera manufacturers would have us believe that just because their sensor sizes are smaller than 35mm or medium or large format that we should think in terms of their sizes instead of traditional sizes.

Lenses of a specific focal length have nothing more than a difference in field of view for smaller or larger sensor/film sizes. That is ALL.

There are only two real issues:
1-The field of view and the amount of actual image data collected is greater for 35mm and larger formats than most dSLRs.
2-Lens manufacturers will build fewer corrections for lens distortions into lenses designed for smaller formats than they do for ones designed for larger ones BECAUSE the field of view is narrower. This includes such things as vignetting, spherical and chromatic aberrations.

In other words, lenses designed for small sensors have more defects and therefore don't work as well on larger format cameras.

Small sensors are no more than collectors of data from a narrow field of view. Nothing more, nothing less. Larger format cameras just have wider fields of view from which to collect data and more places to put it. Some photographers think collecting more data on a larger sensor/film area is a good thing.

Today's camera manufacturers would have us think differently to increase their sales.

I'm not sure what the techinichalities of DOF have to do with distortion/abberation correction. Not trying to be beligerent, just trying to understand where you're coming from.

Where I'm coming from is that the pocket cams generally have a 6x7cm sensor, this allows for the use of lenses that generate 35mm equivalencies of the same values, but are actually much shorter focal lengths that bear different optic qualities. Thus, f/2.8 at 100mm equivalent on a pocket cam has a much deeper DOF value, because it's actually optically 35mm or thereabouts.

The same goes with when you get larger. A 35mm equivalent on a MF sensor would be roughly a 70mm lens, thus generating a shallower DOF optically.

Am I thinking correctly, or am I totally off base here?

05/25/2007 05:44:20 PM · #21

Originally posted by silverfoxx:

hmmm, who should i believe now?:)
how can i find out if a lens is good for my camera?

thank you J.B. !! :)

Your main issue is using a lens designed specifically for a smaller sensor size than than 35mm and therefore might have poorer optical quality. The danger with those are that you might see things like vignetting and spherical or chomatic abberation or all three around the edges of your pictures. That would not be a good thing.

Any lens designed optically for a LARGER sensor size than your camera, like medium or larger format, will work perfectly fine on your camera. You just won't have as wide a field of vierw as that lens provides on the other larger formated cameras.

Nikon AF Zoom-Nikkor 28-80mm f/3.5-5.6

05/25/2007 05:45:28 PM · #22

thank you so much Fritz!
i think i understand it about moving a 35mm camera and the subject distance.
ok, f stop is the most important
what a COC indeed! :)

Givemeashot

Nikon D200

05/25/2007 05:46:19 PM · #23

I like when you go to the "Menu" and then click on Autum Winter Line collection..... how the pictures are cock eyed and then when yo hoover over them they straighten and then Zoom in.... thats what cought my atention lol

05/25/2007 05:46:39 PM · #24

Originally posted by stdavidson:

Originally posted by silverfoxx:
hmmm, who should i believe now?:)
how can i find out if a lens is good for my camera?

thank you J.B. !! :)

Your main issue is using a lens designed specifically for a smaller sensor size than than 35mm and therefore might have poorer optical quality. The danger with those are that you might see things like vignetting and spherical or chomatic abberation or all three around the edges of your pictures. That would not be a good thing.

Any lens designed optically for a LARGER sensor size than your camera, like medium or larger format, will work perfectly fine on your camera. You just won't have as wide a field of vierw as that lens provides on the other larger formated cameras.

thank you! i've never seen it written somewhere, but i guess i just didn't look good enough.
i haven't noticed any aberrations with my 70-200mm yet. good:)

wavelength