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05/21/2007 06:43:39 AM · #1 |
Hi all,
I've been thinking about voting, and votes, and vote averages, and all sorts of things lately, and read a bunch of threads on voting and blah and also stuff. One thing that repeatedly turns up in conversations is the idea that "5" is an "average" vote for an image.
Of course, mathematically, this is wrong (as the threads often point out). When you have a voting scale from 1-10, the average is 5.5, not 5.0. So, people who are voting "5" as average are voting those images as below average. I don't think most people realize this (I didn't until it was pointed out in a post, but then, I'm a math idiot).
Since we can't vote in half-points, we can never actually vote an average as mathematically average (note that I don't claim we can't vote it as "average" because an "average score" is either the mean or median score in any particular challenge, but we don't know that score until after a challenge, so it's not useful to us as voters while voting). Anyway, if you give a 6, you're voting above average, if you give a 5, below. Nothing is purely average.
"So," I thought to myself, "what would we need to have the average be 'votable' (made up word)?" Three options presented themselves to my math challenged brain:
1. Change the scale to go from 1-11. "6" would then be average, but at least you could vote it;
2. Change the scale to go from 0-10. "5" would now be the true average score, and would be votable. But, oh my, geez, OUCH to get a zero score . . .
3. Add a vote for "5.5" to the middle of the scale; "5.5" would then be votable, would be mathematically average, and it would be pretty clear that 5.5 is an "average" score.
Why do I post this here? Am I advocating a "real" change? No, not really. I just thought it was an interesting question, and one without a particularly "pretty" solution (each has its negatives, from zero scores to including only one fractional score to having a scale that ends above ten). Do we need a solution? Probably not. Will it truly affect voting? I doubt it (though it might move scores from the lower middle to the middle middle).
Maybe I should have put this in the "General" forum . . . ?
Best,
Rob
P.S. I searched for something like this in the forums, but I either got 300 threads worth of responses, most of them irrelevant, or I got relevant topics but that didn't discuss this exact topic. |
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05/21/2007 06:47:54 AM · #2 |
Whilst this might make voting more precise it is pointless for the following reason: If all average photos get 5.5 instead of 5, the average goes up. It wouldn't affect ranking, only statistics.
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05/21/2007 10:12:22 AM · #3 |
You're assuming that of all photos on DPC, the middle of the bell curve should happen to be halfway between the voting extremes. Why must that be true?
In other words, there's nothing magic about 5 or 6. On other sites, the average across all scores is higher than the voting midpoint, at least from what I've seen.
Check out Eyefetch.com, for instance, where it seems some huge number of people have average scores given in the 7 and up range. I'd bet the average across all scores is well above 5.5, yet they also use a 1-10 voting range.
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05/21/2007 10:21:01 AM · #4 |
| Spinal Tap Would like option 1 |
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05/21/2007 10:37:35 AM · #5 |
Originally posted by Elvis_L:
Spinal Tap Would like option 1 |
"It's such a fine line between stupid, and clever." - My favorite Spinal Tap quote!
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05/21/2007 10:38:09 AM · #6 |
Originally posted by gloda:
Whilst this might make voting more precise it is pointless for the following reason: If all average photos get 5.5 instead of 5, the average goes up. It wouldn't affect ranking, only statistics. |
I disagree; not everyone is worried about ranking. Many people are simply focused (no pun intended) on their average score. Having a higher score might make them feel better about participating at DPC, while maintaining DPC's reputation for not inflating scores solely to make people feel good (ie, they would get higher scores because of the accurate representation of the mathematically average score, which would encourage voters to vote images more accurately).
Originally posted by levyj413:
You're assuming that of all photos on DPC, the middle of the bell curve should happen to be halfway between the voting extremes. Why must that be true?
In other words, there's nothing magic about 5 or 6. On other sites, the average across all scores is higher than the voting midpoint, at least from what I've seen.
Check out Eyefetch.com, for instance, where it seems some huge number of people have average scores given in the 7 and up range. I'd bet the average across all scores is well above 5.5, yet they also use a 1-10 voting range. |
Nope, no such assumption at all. I'm referring to voter perception as it influences behavior. Voters (and photographers) on DPC assume "5" is the score that should be given to an "average" shot, and vote accordingly. That does not mean it's where the bell curve should be (as you've said, there's nothing magical about those numbers in terms of the curve either overall or in relation to any particular challenge).
For example, DPC could be full of wonderful, enthralling, exciting, technically perfect photographers who never take average images. The bell curve would thus be far to the right of average, but when the odd average image did appear, voters would vote it a 5, which, of course, isn't the mathematical average on a 1-10 scale. See the difference? Maybe Eyefetch is full of great photographers :P
Remember, I'm not all worked up about this; I've just seen people focused on the number 5. Why have the "Average Under 5" group? Because a score -- and thus an average -- at or under 5 means something to people (and from the posts I've seen, it means people think they are less than average images/photographers). I haven't seen a group formed of people with an average under 6, or under 5.5. Why not? Those numbers aren't relevant, and I think in the real world, one of them should be :) But you ain't in the real world, you in DPC now! (name that TV show)
Originally posted by Elvis_L:
Spinal Tap Would like option 1 |
Perhaps I should have included an option to simply make 10 louder . . .
Best,
Rob |
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05/21/2007 10:46:10 AM · #7 |
Originally posted by rheverly:
Originally posted by Elvis_L:
Spinal Tap Would like option 1 |
Perhaps I should have included an option to simply make 10 louder . . .
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Man that really made me laugh out loud.
Originally posted by scarbrd:
"It's such a fine line between stupid, and clever." - My favorite Spinal Tap quote! |
great line. I quotes the movie often but my wife hates it. she refuses to even watch the movie with me:( |
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05/21/2007 11:12:14 AM · #8 |
Originally posted by Elvis_L:
Originally posted by rheverly:
Originally posted by Elvis_L:
Spinal Tap Would like option 1 |
Perhaps I should have included an option to simply make 10 louder . . .
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Man that really made me laugh out loud. |
Glad I could return the favor; my wife thought I was working when I laughed out loud at your first comment. I had to blame it on an E-mail. My wife won't even get past the basic description of what the movie is about, let alone watch it with me. And I've shown her pics from my high-school hair band days and all. She just doesn't get it.
Best,
Rob
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05/21/2007 11:23:25 AM · #9 |
Originally posted by rheverly:
My wife won't even get past the basic description of what the movie is about, let alone watch it with me. And I've shown her pics from my high-school hair band days and all. She just doesn't get it.
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right there with you. The reason she won't watch is because they look like hair metal. She laughs at the old pictures of me with my long hair. She is several years younger and got into grunge when she got into music so she hates 80's metal. |
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05/21/2007 11:25:50 AM · #10 |
Originally posted by gloda:
Whilst this might make voting more precise it is pointless for the following reason: If all average photos get 5.5 instead of 5, the average goes up. It wouldn't affect ranking, only statistics. |
It affects a photographer's attitude which is not pointless. It is more than mear statistics. The average vote given by the average DPCer tells submitting photographer's that their work is below average. Most photographers here put a lot of work into their pictures and that makes it hard to take.
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05/21/2007 11:38:06 AM · #11 |
| Five to me is still just an average image, The average I give out is higher than five because I like a lot more images than I dislike which makes sense because there are so many really good images compared to the number of poor images which makes the statistical average go up, but as far as what I consider a average image it will be always be a five or middle of what ever scale is used. |
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