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 05/19/2007 02:39:15 PM · #26
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by glad2badad:

FWIW, I consider myself a "developing" photographer. :)

We all should, no matter what our level of experience.

:D
 05/19/2007 02:40:00 PM · #27
What I've noticed though, in reading comments, is one voter might look at a blown highlight as a device the photographer used to bring attention to a section of the frame, to help the viewer move around it, whereas someone else might only know that it's not good to overexpose a photo and so that's all they consider and say the picture as less than it could have been. Some people never move out of the technical way of looking at pictures while some people want only the emotional impact. It's not really a developing/experienced dynamic. Just a personal preference type of judging.
05/19/2007 02:59:37 PM · #28
Originally posted by pcody:
What I've noticed though, in reading comments, is one voter might look at a blown highlight as a device the photographer used to bring attention to a section of the frame, to help the viewer move around it, whereas someone else might only know that it's not good to overexpose a photo and so that's all they consider and say the picture as less than it could have been. Some people never move out of the technical way of looking at pictures while some people want only the emotional impact. It's not really a developing/experienced dynamic. Just a personal preference type of judging.


Absolutely right.
As an experiment, take a look at billboard and mag ads and you may be surprised by the number of technical 'rules' that are continuously broken by obviously very established photogs. Knowing the rules is fine but accepting that they can and should be broken on occassion is tough for some.
So not to contradict stdavidson too much, I believe that it's the established photog that tends to be more accepting and can recognize interpretation a little easier and realize that in many cases the technical no no's were intentional.
 05/19/2007 03:03:52 PM · #29
Im not developing... the chemicals always bother me... )-;

Maybe I am regressing? Taking a nap? Or just voicing my opinion.

You could be the worlds worst, or worlds best at whatever it is you do... but there is always someone out there who thinks differently than you.
 05/19/2007 03:48:42 PM · #30
.

Message edited by author 2007-05-22 18:17:46.
 05/20/2007 02:36:19 PM · #31
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by stdavidson:
"Developing" photographers also tend to vote low in reaction to their sensitivity regarding how their own images are scored.

I'm surprised to see such an assumption from you. Do you have "proof" to back this up? :)

You are right. I will recind that last statement. I don't have proof of that, it is just speculation. What is true is that general DPC voting patterns are on the low end of the scale and surprisingly opposed to the often expressed view that the photography submitted here is very good.

Originally posted by pawdrix:
Originally posted by stdavidson:
There is truth to the idea that established and "developing" photographers generally view and vote images differently.

Experienced photographers tend to react more to the technical aspects of a photograph... things like composition, color, contrast and technique.


This is interesting because I find the exact opposite when I show my work to professional photographers and the technicals are even less important to the people that work in the galleries. ...

I don't mean to gainsay Steve in any way but that has consistently been my experience.

My statements were directed at the DPC community in general and nowhere else. Professional photographers or galleries are completely different and far more sophistcated audiences than DPC.

I still operate under the apparently mistaken belief that DPC is primarily a teaching and learning site consisting of mostly inexperienced photographers wanting to learn more. That was why it was originally created, anyway.

Whenever I see stated, as I have by you and several others in this discussion, that the professionals don't really care about technical quality or proper photographic technique, then I'm disappointed. You are telling inexperienced photographers that rules and quality don't matter so they don't think it matters either. I believe that message is incorrect.

Note:
Here is something to support your view...
One of the bigger gallery concerns I've seen regarding photographs is that the print sizes be large enough. They generally don't like anything less than 16" X 20" of actual print area at established galleries. :)
 05/20/2007 03:00:43 PM · #32
Originally posted by HighNooner:
All the positive and admiring comments I am getting on my âvanishing point IIâ submission are coming from well-established and ribbon winning voters, while all the disagreeing ones are from what I call "developing" photographers.
I was sure I put forth a good entry; controversial, but good. Now, I am sure it will not win, with already 150 voters and an average of 5.6 â¦. But who cares, real photographers really take the time to look and pass proper scores on good work; and to me, that is what counts.


Only thing comes to mind after looking at your average vote cast is, can u spell KARMA? lol
 05/20/2007 04:05:06 PM · #33
Originally posted by dmadden:
Originally posted by HighNooner:
All the positive and admiring comments I am getting on my âvanishing point IIâ submission are coming from well-established and ribbon winning voters, while all the disagreeing ones are from what I call "developing" photographers.
I was sure I put forth a good entry; controversial, but good. Now, I am sure it will not win, with already 150 voters and an average of 5.6 â¦. But who cares, real photographers really take the time to look and pass proper scores on good work; and to me, that is what counts.


Only thing comes to mind after looking at your average vote cast is, can u spell KARMA? lol


I would have to agree with dmadden. From some of the "developing photographer" comments I have gotten him, what goes around comes around. As for the rest of us "developing photographers" thank God our votes count.
 05/20/2007 04:14:28 PM · #34
Originally posted by dmadden:
Originally posted by HighNooner:
All the positive and admiring comments I am getting on my âvanishing point IIâ submission are coming from well-established and ribbon winning voters, while all the disagreeing ones are from what I call "developing" photographers.
I was sure I put forth a good entry; controversial, but good. Now, I am sure it will not win, with already 150 voters and an average of 5.6 â¦. But who cares, real photographers really take the time to look and pass proper scores on good work; and to me, that is what counts.


Only thing comes to mind after looking at your average vote cast is, can u spell KARMA? lol


I have nothing to do with this. :)
 05/20/2007 04:16:24 PM · #35
Are photogs who still use film developing photographers??
 05/20/2007 04:17:22 PM · #36
Originally posted by formerlee:
Are photogs who still use film developing photographers??


Or just chemically addicted :-D
 05/20/2007 04:19:46 PM · #37
Originally posted by dmadden:
Originally posted by HighNooner:
All the positive and admiring comments I am getting on my âvanishing point IIâ submission are coming from well-established and ribbon winning voters, while all the disagreeing ones are from what I call "developing" photographers.
I was sure I put forth a good entry; controversial, but good. Now, I am sure it will not win, with already 150 voters and an average of 5.6 â¦. But who cares, real photographers really take the time to look and pass proper scores on good work; and to me, that is what counts.


Only thing comes to mind after looking at your average vote cast is, can u spell KARMA? lol


YEAH, coming from this "developing photographer" here is my Avg Vote Cast: 6.0193. (and to me, this is what counts)
 05/20/2007 04:21:30 PM · #38
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by formerlee:
Are photogs who still use film developing photographers??


Or just chemically addicted :-D


You are just so 'negative'! You are just seeking 'exposure' and perhaps you will 'slide' into 'infra red' fires of the 'darkroom'. Can't do anymore, makes my brain hurt.
 05/20/2007 04:23:33 PM · #39
Originally posted by karmat:
Originally posted by dmadden:
Originally posted by HighNooner:
All the positive and admiring comments I am getting on my âvanishing point IIâ submission are coming from well-established and ribbon winning voters, while all the disagreeing ones are from what I call "developing" photographers.
I was sure I put forth a good entry; controversial, but good. Now, I am sure it will not win, with already 150 voters and an average of 5.6 â¦. But who cares, real photographers really take the time to look and pass proper scores on good work; and to me, that is what counts.


Only thing comes to mind after looking at your average vote cast is, can u spell KARMA? lol


I have nothing to do with this. :)


I hide my head in shame... all this time I had been pronouncing your name ...CAR MAT... :O)

Ray
 05/20/2007 04:34:09 PM · #40
karmat
Do you pronounce the âTâ in your name? Because Karma means one grapevine tree while Karmat means many.
 05/21/2007 10:54:29 AM · #41
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Judging by your (average) score cast, it would seem that the great masses ... are more generous towards your images than you are theirs.

True, that!

Originally posted by stdavidson:
..."Developing" photographers also tend to vote low in reaction to their sensitivity regarding how their own images are scored.

Hmmm, I'll have to check my own conscience on that. I have noticed that high ranking photographers are often generous with their vote-giving. They can afford to be generous! Perhaps the reverse is sometimes true, also.

Message edited by author 2007-05-21 13:33:29.
 05/21/2007 11:26:40 AM · #42
...

Message edited by author 2007-05-22 17:05:59.
 05/21/2007 11:49:17 AM · #43
Originally posted by pawdrix:

I'm not sure I said that they don't care about good technique they just don't get fixed on it like many/most here at DPC. Impact is what they are looking for. I'm not preaching bad technique just a call to look beyond.

I seem to find that most of what makes the front page here on DPC is ultimately forgettable photogrqaphy that is technically perfect when some of the better images that may even last beyond the life of the site fall back...enough to make me wonder sometimes. Just my opinion but I rarely connect with images on the front page and I don't expect most people here to be in sync with me there. If I stand alone in that...it's ok with me.

Almost all of my favorite images, journalistic or art are so flawed technically, yet they stand the test of time. So, I'm more fixed on why that is these days than technique. I suppose what I'm saying is "don't put the carriage before the horse". I think many here could stike a better balance.

I read a lot of other peoples comments to see if I can get into the sites mindset....and I see people pointing out distractions that really (imo) aren't there...grain that may have a nice home in the image being treated as a negative etc. etc. etc. Critics taking technical consideration to what I see as an unhealthy level and missing the entire point of otherwise great images.

All for now.

This is a most eloquent way of putting into words what I feel as well. As a one-time anally fixated architect and analyst (trust me, you don't want to know how anal)I was always focused on the micro view and not on the macro view. Now, I try to see things "in the round" and "holistically" and this often means that some or other technical distractions are ignored as they really do not interfere with the whole. Doesn't mean that being technically perfect is a bad thing, it is just not the be all and end all.

But I think Steve says it better. :-)
 05/21/2007 11:51:17 AM · #44
The best photo doesn't always win.
 05/21/2007 12:03:27 PM · #45
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Whenever I see stated, as I have by you and several others in this discussion, that the professionals don't really care about technical quality or proper photographic technique, then I'm disappointed. You are telling inexperienced photographers that rules and quality don't matter so they don't think it matters either. I believe that message is incorrect.


I'm not sure I said that they don't care about good technique they just don't get fixed on it like many/most here at DPC. Impact is what they are looking for.

I seem to find that most of what makes the front page here on DPC is ultimately forgettable photogrqaphy that is technically perfect when some of the better images that may even last beyond the life of the site fall back...enough to make me wonder sometimes.
...
I suppose what I'm saying is "don't put the carriage before the horse".
...
Critics taking technical consideration to what I see as an unhealthy level and missing the entire point of otherwise great images.

Agreed about putting the carriage before the horse. You and I just disagree about which is the carriage and which is the horse. I believe for a beginner's photography site like DPC that the technicals are the horse. You do not. No rule says we have to agree. :)

Originally posted by citymars:
Originally posted by stdavidson:
..."Developing" photographers also tend to vote low in reaction to their sensitivity regarding how their own images are scored.

I have noticed that high ranking photographers are often generous with their vote-giving. They can afford to be generous! Perhaps the reverse is sometimes true, also.

Your thinking is similar to a lot of other folks at DPC. I believe it is erroneous and one contributing factor as to why DPC average scores given are so low. You think 'high ranking' photographers give high scores because they can 'afford to'. I believe that 'high ranking' photographers better recognized 'good' photography than the rest of us and that is why a disproportionate number of them vote higher. Perhaps we all could learn something from that.

Review the forums and I believe you will find that most voters at DPC are more concerned with reasons for voting images lower than they are for voting them higher. DNMC is one of the most common. That is another contributing factor to low scores.
 05/21/2007 12:17:57 PM · #46
...

Breakin the law....Breakin the law!

Originally posted by stdavidson:
I believe you will find that most voters at DPC are more concerned with reasons for voting images lower than they are for voting them higher.


That's a really great point that you make. How do we change that?

Message edited by author 2007-05-22 17:05:18.
 05/21/2007 01:26:03 PM · #47
After reading this entire thread I went to see what the last three challenges revealed and here it is. I gathered the data you do the evaluation. First the challenge number of entries and the average score then the winners user averages for votes cast and received then the bottom 3 for that challenge and their user averages for votes cast and received. Some interesting discussions in this thread but considering some of the discussion here this might help? Don't know just thought it interesting.

DPL Album cover 148 entries average score 5.7

Top 3
De Sousa cast 5.9 rcvd 6.7
hotpasta cast 5.0 rcvd 6.0
Pedro cast 5.8 rcvd 6.3

Bottom 3
Pug-h cast 5.5 rcvd 5.3
sgauria cast 5.7 rcvd 5.6
chesire cast 6.2 rcvd 4.8

Sports 224 entries average score 5.5

Top 3
bod cast 5.5 rcvd 5.8
ZeppKash cast 4.9 rcvd 6.0
traquino98 cast 5.7 rcvd 5.7

Bottom 3
CharlieBaker cast 6.2 rcvd 4.9
Fairfield20 cast 6.2 rcvd 4.7
emily212 cast 7.1 rcvd 4.6

Cultural Events 87 entries average score 5.4

Top 3
dwterry cast 5.5 rcvd 5.6
Yanko cast 5.5 rcvd 6.2
emyleo cast 0 rcvd 5.5

Bottom 3
JFharden cast 0 rcvd 3.1
dogmaND cast 0 rcvd 3.1
Nalaandtroy cast 0 rcvd 3.9

edit to fix username links

Message edited by author 2007-05-21 13:27:59.
 05/21/2007 01:32:37 PM · #48
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Originally posted by stdavidson:
I believe you will find that most voters at DPC are more concerned with reasons for voting images lower than they are for voting them higher.

That's a really great point that you make. How do we change that?

Wish I knew.

I've always felt DPCers vote images lower because their own images are voted low and that is what everyone else does. I have no idea how to combat that.

For myself I long ago divorced my own scoring from how others vote mine. Normally I vote 85+% of the images higher in challenges that I enter than my own images gets... even my very best submissions. I don't do that because I think mine are that bad, I don't think they are bad, but because I now vote images the way that feels right to me based on my own experience and the quality of the images I see.

It took me years to come to this point.

If that makes me a rebel then so be it.
05/21/2007 01:34:23 PM · #49
Sheryll
Tell us; what do you think the numbers are saying??

Message edited by author 2007-05-21 13:35:57.
 05/21/2007 01:44:00 PM · #50
No one here at DPC is better than what they individually give. I think many of us need to look at scores received versus scores given. If you are honest with yourself and not self centered the scores should be very close. Someone who gives more than than receive in voting is I believe something we should all work towards if we want to improve ourselves. Someone who takes a much higher score than they are willing to give is in a elite class that probably be in the prize winning sites or in galeries not wasting time here at DPC. Is there a similariety between vastly different give and take scores and personality. Are the higher give scores more friendly, helpful and fun to be around? Interesting concept. Something to think about ... are you pessimistic or optimistic, giving or self-centered? Let's have fun ;)
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