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DPChallenge Forums >> Rant >> Feminism, are women equal yet? (short answer, no!)
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 05/16/2007 09:37:29 PM · #176
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
... telling your boss you're going to take paternity leave. At least with women, it's still expected that they will take leave. Not so for men. In many workplaces if you do it or try to, it's career suicide.

I think California law allows fathers paternity leave on somewhat similar terms to what female employees get for maternity leave. Anyway, both of my employers were pretty cooperative about my taking time off right after my son was born -- at least my job was not going to be taken away.

One of my employers let me and another employee set up some spare space as a childcare room, so our babies accompanied us to work almost as soon as they could hang around outside the house.
 05/16/2007 09:38:10 PM · #177
Originally posted by Matthew:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
LOL. Your wording is still a bit confusing. I get the basic point of it though.


Okay - one last time.

do people who disagree with escapetooz disagree because they think that:

A - society should make no allowances for the gender difference, and if the result is unequal, then it is what it is.

B - society should try and make allowances for gender differences, but you disagree over specific policies, or the cost, or the extent, or ways in which equality measures have been introduced.

These are totally different arguments - it would help a lot if someone would answer.


I do hope you will not think I am trying to be flippant in response to your query but while I do not necessarily disagree with Escapetooz' objectives, I do have a problem with the premise of some of her arguments.

I am more inclined to agree with the points presented by Frisca'where she alludes to "Substantive Equality", a factor which I believe to be the primary issue of consideration in the issue at hand.

Having said that, is direct response to your query I would answer as follows:

Item A - NO

Item B - YES... which is why I mentioned the comments made by Frisca.

While it does remain true that women still face several obstacles in the workplace, I get the very distinct impression that the playing field seems a tad more level in some countries than others.

Ray
 05/16/2007 09:49:10 PM · #178
Originally posted by crayon:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Do you agree that men and women both, and the children even more so, would benefit from fighting for more parental rights and leave?



On this, we agree.


but hey, that's bad for business.
so if i employ a temp staff to do your job while you were away on your justified and entitled leave, you shouldn't complaint. well, one thing may lead to another, so maybe after a few weeks, i might pay this new employee more, because he is productive! :)


Did you read the article?

Anyhow. What's best for business doesn't mean it's best for society. It's scary the control our businesses have. And the rest of the world seems to be doing just fine with their leave benefits.
 05/16/2007 10:17:57 PM · #179
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Did you read the article?

of course i did. most women-rights/feminists group do not understand that when they fight too hard for more rights for women in the workplace, they are at the same time, creating a negative side effect that defeats their fight in the first place. i'll let you people think about what it is first.
 05/16/2007 10:20:45 PM · #180
Main Entry: op·pres·sion
Pronunciation: &-'pre-sh&n
Function: noun
1 a : unjust or cruel exercise of authority or power b : something that oppresses especially in being an unjust or excessive exercise of power

05/16/2007 10:23:19 PM · #181
Originally posted by crayon:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Did you read the article?

of course i did. most women-rights/feminists group do not understand that when they fight too hard for more rights for women in the workplace, they are at the same time, creating a negative side effect that defeats their fight in the first place. i'll let you people think about what it is first.


We shouldn't have to fight that hard. Obviously America and Australia are behind on some things (this and global warming policies come to mind) for how advanced and civilized we are supposed to be.
 05/16/2007 10:55:10 PM · #182
Monica, what should we do to make things right for you? I'm curious what changes would need to be made to satisfy you.
 05/16/2007 11:02:48 PM · #183
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Originally posted by crayon:
most women-rights/feminists group do not understand that when they fight too hard for more rights for women in the workplace, they are at the same time, creating a negative side effect that defeats their fight in the first place. i'll let you people think about what it is first.


We shouldn't have to fight that hard. Obviously America and Australia are behind on some things (this and global warming policies come to mind) for how advanced and civilized we are supposed to be.


imagine if:

feminists win, resulting in more and more rights and extra benefits for women at the workplace. and it is law for employers to provide those to any female employees they have.

now, unless there is also an equity rule that requires all businesses to employ at least a certain percentage of females in their work force, the feminists would have just caused currently unemployed women to lose their attractiveness to potential employers.

things aren't always as pretty as they are on the surface.
and most people think that major countries (which are "major" because of businesses and investments from businesses) aren't working through legal holes to become who they are today.
 05/16/2007 11:44:44 PM · #184
This is the problem I see in this debate. People look at "society" as a single unit that must be made equal, while ignoring the segments of that society other than man/woman in this debate, in other places black/white and in yet others something else. Society isn't just a great big ball that is isolated with just the two segments. There are always many different forces acting on any given situation in the community.
It's sort of like the voting system here at DPC. Most agree that a picture gets the vote it deserves. So lets say that at this moment people fill the roles that they fill because that best serves the society. If the roles become artificial or forced, can society sustain them? But, if people in society really feel that something doesn't fit anymore, will they move into roles that better reflect how they feel? And wouldn't that be longer lasting than a forced change?
Someone started a thread about her workplace (sorry). She said her boss kept telling her she was doing a good job, she was expecting a bonus, and then didn't get it. Her boss was a woman. Then someone said, if her boss was a man, would she consider it discrimination. I thought that was pretty meansprited at first. Then I thought about it some more. Look at the dynamics. Monica backed down and waved it off as a small mistake on her bosses part. Her boss had kids worked hard etc. But this is the thing. I think Monica justified the actions of her boss because she was a woman. So project this to society as a whole. If women don't hold women accountable, who is going to change? How can we expect men to change if we don't change ourselves?
Another thought is, if a woman is aware of the struggle for equality, does that make her less likely to aggressivly protect her rights when another woman is involved in a work situation? And could this be one of the reasons that in all these years, I took these same classes in 1974, there hasn't been much progress?
 05/16/2007 11:51:44 PM · #185
Sorry but I haven't read any of the posts here but I was just wondering if this is the thread where I can get some laundry done and maybe some supper cooked?

Thanks.
 05/16/2007 11:55:53 PM · #186


Can I just say, yummmm ? ;-)
 05/16/2007 11:59:50 PM · #187
Leroy I see you like choosing new evils. Just remember hell has no fury like a woman scorn so just keep that in mind. :P
 05/17/2007 12:01:07 AM · #188
Originally posted by yanko:
Leroy I see you like choosing new evils. Just remember hell has no fury like a woman scorn so just keep that in mind. :P


Scorning is the last thing on my mind ;-)
 05/17/2007 12:15:29 AM · #189
Women of DPC:

Atleast you aren't getting dragged by your hair, beaten bloody, and raped every day like that lady from Oprah! Settle down!

;)
 05/17/2007 12:28:26 AM · #190
Originally posted by Beautiful-Joe:
Atleast you aren't getting dragged by your hair, beaten bloody, and raped every day like that lady from Oprah! Settle down!


We can hope that this is the truth, but unfortunately we can't assume it. With such a broad, varied population as DPC, it is quite probable that at least a few members are living that life.
05/17/2007 12:40:53 AM · #191
Originally posted by crayon:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Do you agree that men and women both, and the children even more so, would benefit from fighting for more parental rights and leave?



On this, we agree.


but hey, that's bad for business.


In the short term, perhaps.

Businesses do lots of things that might seem bad for profits, but help benefit and retain experienced employees. Things like providing health care benefits or retirement plans.
 05/17/2007 12:48:11 AM · #192
Just how backward parental leave rights are in the US; a comparison

Message edited by author 2007-05-17 00:50:24.
 05/17/2007 12:49:55 AM · #193
Originally posted by Beautiful-Joe:
Women of DPC:

Atleast you aren't getting dragged by your hair, beaten bloody, and raped every day like that lady from Oprah! Settle down!

;)


Do these statements make you feel like a man? I bet after the first time you posted here, a second hair sprouted on your chest.
 05/17/2007 12:51:14 AM · #194
Originally posted by Beautiful-Joe:
Women of DPC:

Atleast you aren't getting dragged by your hair, beaten bloody, and raped every day like that lady from Oprah! Settle down!

;)


I guess no one can ever say anything about anything they deal with because there will always be someone in a worse spot.

Way to put things into persepctive. I'll tell that to the woman that is raped every day but not beated that she is much better off.
 05/17/2007 12:56:05 AM · #195
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Just how backward parental leave rights are in the US; a comparison


Ohh wow. Thank you, that is a really good source. I didn't even know it was THAT bad.

America and Australia... 0% of wages.... There are only about 6 or 7 on that list that pay 0 if I counted correctly!

I am sad. And I just watched fast food nation. Completely off topic but I'm really depressed now. oy.

Isn't Germany way more than 14 weeks though? I thought they had 2 years? Or is that not considered maternity leave but something different?

Message edited by author 2007-05-17 00:58:03.
 05/17/2007 01:06:19 AM · #196
Originally posted by escapetooz:


I am sad. And I just watched fast food nation. Completely off topic but I'm really depressed now. oy.



If you liked the movie, read the book.
 05/17/2007 07:31:27 AM · #197
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Isn't Germany way more than 14 weeks though? I thought they had 2 years? Or is that not considered maternity leave but something different?


Some countries have longer allowed leave but unpaid (I know that the UK falls into that category). You have the right to return to your job, but not to full pay.

Originally posted by RayEthier:
I do hope you will not think I am trying to be flippant in response to your query but while I do not necessarily disagree with Escapetooz' objectives, I do have a problem with the premise of some of her arguments.


I agree with you. I don't agree with her totally either - but over the issue of how feminist principles are applied in practice (to be effective and cost efficient), not on whether equality is even an aim. From (picking an example) crayon's statements, he seems to disagree that women should even begin to expect measures to be applied to level the playing field: if it costs money (which it does), then any cost outweighs the benefit. Personally, I find that objectionable - but then it appears to reflect the position in the US (something else I have learned today!).


05/17/2007 09:19:25 AM · #198
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by escapetooz:


I am sad. And I just watched fast food nation. Completely off topic but I'm really depressed now. oy.



If you liked the movie, read the book.


Phew. I'd like to, it's def on my to do list but I'm taking 14 credits this summer all online so my reading is fuuull. lol. One class is Social Problems. I think I'll quite enjoy it.
 05/17/2007 06:16:50 PM · #199
Originally posted by Matthew:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Isn't Germany way more than 14 weeks though? I thought they had 2 years? Or is that not considered maternity leave but something different?


Some countries have longer allowed leave but unpaid (I know that the UK falls into that category). You have the right to return to your job, but not to full pay.

Originally posted by RayEthier:
I do hope you will not think I am trying to be flippant in response to your query but while I do not necessarily disagree with Escapetooz' objectives, I do have a problem with the premise of some of her arguments.


I agree with you. I don't agree with her totally either - but over the issue of how feminist principles are applied in practice (to be effective and cost efficient), not on whether equality is even an aim. From (picking an example) crayon's statements, he seems to disagree that women should even begin to expect measures to be applied to level the playing field: if it costs money (which it does), then any cost outweighs the benefit. Personally, I find that objectionable - but then it appears to reflect the position in the US (something else I have learned today!).


LOL... I don't agree with myself totally either. The arguements have gotten confusing and out of hand in a lot of cases, and I will say I'm not the most eloquent speaker. I was trying to bring attention to the fact that these problems exist. I'm not quite sure WHAT the solutions are or how to achieve them. I hope to learn more and figure it out. Seems one core problem in the US is that money is being valued over the wellbeing of the people (just look at our health care!). And that is sad, wealth is such a relative thing. I think our nation could become wealthier on the whole if it were willing to take a few innitial "setbacks" to further the health and lives of our people.

I hate the "every man for himself" mentality that often takes place. And any talk otherwise half the time you are labeled as a socialist or communist. So the business loses a little giving a woman or man maternity leave? Do you know how much of a child's personality and life DEPENDS on those first years. Getting into psychology here but really, if children get a better start they are more likely to do better in life. Those are critical years. I'm not saying this happens in day cares at all because it doesn't, just illustrating how critical those years are.... if a baby does not receive enough contact and love in the begining of their lives (I beleive before age 2 is the critical period but I could be slightly off) they will NEVER be able to attach. They will be a sociopath for the rest of their lives.

I am in a different day care every day. I have not seen many things that are atrocious but I can assure you I would not want my 6 month old in there competing for attention with anywhere from 3-15 other babies for 8+ hours out of the day. By the time he/she is 1 or 2 I wouldn't mind as much.
 05/17/2007 06:19:32 PM · #200
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Monica, what should we do to make things right for you? I'm curious what changes would need to be made to satisfy you.


I don't know what you mean by this. Sounds condescending.

This isn't about satisfying me. This is about equality.
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