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DPChallenge Forums >> Photography Discussion >> Something of an ethical dilemma...
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 05/01/2007 08:45:41 PM · #1
...involving old(ish) photos and copyright issues.

My mom died last February. In all of the cleaning up and out that's been going on, I've inherited the job of family archivist, which basically means I have a TON of unsorted and unlabeled photos.

In this huge batch of photos, I found six studio prints of my Mom. Unfortunately, the silverfish have begun eating away at the surface of the prints, mostly around the edges (with two of the prints being pretty heavily damaged all over).

Handwritten on the backs of four of the prints is the name "Ricardo Fernandez", a number (2, 3, 4, 5) and the date the photo was taken (8/13/73). On the other two prints is written the name "Ricardo Fernandez", the phrase "Plain Light", and some Spanish (?), which - due to the handwriting - is rather hard to make out. I think it says "triaugulo lucia el otro extreue (?) de lu [or 'la' - not sure] cauara (?)". The last word may be 'carena' - it's very hard to tell. (I am unable to upload any pics of these at the moment since my USB thingie is acting up.)

My dilemma is this: These are very beautiful portraits of my mother as a young woman of 17. I would like to scan, repair/save, print, and frame these for my own use (and possibly to give one to Dad and my brothers). I looked up the name 'Ricardo Fernandez' and 'photographer' and the only promising looking results I got were for Ricardo Fernandez alberti (except that he would have been 13 at the time the photos were taken). I have NO idea where the photos were taken, or the name of the studio, and anyone in the family that could have told me either can't recall or has passed away. I believe that mom was living in Greenville, SC, at the time the photos were taken, but this does NOT mean that they were taken there.

I would like to get permission to do this from the photographer/copyright holder, but I have no idea how to contact him. Has anyone heard of a photog by this name who was taking portraits in the early 70's, most likely in the southern US (possibly in Ohio)? I know this is a long shot. :)

If I am unable to locate the photog, since these would be strictly for my own use/enjoyment, what should be the next step (legally and ethically speaking)?

How do copyright laws affect photo restoration? Is it legal only to repair/restore the print itself, or is it legal to scan and digitally repair the photo, then make a new print? Has anyone had experience with this?

Yeah - I know it sounds like I should just do it and keep my mouth shut, but I'd kinda like to keep on the good side of the law. I can't afford fines if something should happen. (I know, I know. The chances of anything happening are slim to probably none, but I'm paranoid. 'kay?)

Any help is greatly appreciated.
Sara
 05/01/2007 08:52:54 PM · #2
Do the photographs contain a copyright notice?

If they do not, and they were taken before 1977, this suggests they are in the public domain, in which case, you would be able to freely reproduce them.

~Terry
 05/01/2007 08:55:15 PM · #3
You might try contacting schools where your mom grew up. Perhaps they would have some records of who was taking photos of the kids around that time. Something to try, anyway.
I don't think I'd worry so much about it myself. Just let everyone know they are for personal use only. Normally I'm all for contacting the photographer, but let's face it. He has probably gone the way of the ancestors by this time.
 05/01/2007 08:56:07 PM · #4
You are only doing it for yourself and family and not to make money. These were taken over 30 years ago.

I say scan em and print em. Who will know?

Now I know people will jump me for saying that but who will ever know anyway and if I was the photgrapher would I care about photos taken 30 years ago and that answer is no.

Message edited by author 2007-05-01 20:56:17.
 05/01/2007 08:57:28 PM · #5
Terry-
You are My Hero!!

The photos are dated 1973, and there is NO copyright notice on them.

Thank you!

pcody -
I don't think these are 'school photos' as they are rather artsy, but I shal certainly keep your advice in mind for when I go through the REST of the photos I've been given. :)

Sara
 05/01/2007 09:00:04 PM · #6
another option is to place an ad in the local paper of where you think they might have been taken. At least then you can satisfy yourself that at least you tried to do all you could.
 05/01/2007 09:01:12 PM · #7
It sounds to me as if you have made a reasonable attempt to figure out who the photographer is. Personally, I would go ahead and scan the photos and make the copies you want for your family's use -- especially if they are deteriorating. If, at a later date, you locate the photographer, if your conscience dictates, you can explain what you did and come to an arrangement after the fact.
 05/01/2007 09:28:05 PM · #8
I agree that copyright is not really an issue here, but also agree with your conscience in wanting to try and give credit to the photographer. Kudos to you for being a really decent person. (Wish we could all say that in instances like this, myself included!)

Having said that, when do we get to see the before and after restoration photos? :)
 05/01/2007 09:31:51 PM · #9
if as Terry has pointed out that the works have fallen into public domain and outside of copyright protection. Then do what you will...

Few people understand that copyright does NOT equal ownership. It is merely a temporary grant of a limited right (monopoly) to control and profit from on said subject for a limited time.

One cannot OWN a thought, idea, etc. Nor can anyone steal an ethereal subject. (ie: copying a song digitally is not stealing, the original remains) It is merely, in some situations, a violation of a limited trade agreement between the author, inventor, artist and the community.

Message edited by author 2007-05-01 21:34:21.
 05/01/2007 09:47:17 PM · #10
just being nosey here.
I really want to see the pictures. if/when you scan them please post them. there are few things in life that bring me more joy then looking at old pictures. I think this is why I'm a photographer. I just love to stare at them, study them, guess what the atmospher of the camera room was when this image was taken.

ok, I'm weird...but please post them.
 05/01/2007 09:50:44 PM · #11
Really who is going to know but you. These pictures were taken over 30 years ago and they are of your mother. Scan them and enjoy them.
 05/01/2007 10:14:12 PM · #12
Originally posted by gi_joe05:
just being nosey here.
I really want to see the pictures. if/when you scan them please post them. there are few things in life that bring me more joy then looking at old pictures. I think this is why I'm a photographer. I just love to stare at them, study them, guess what the atmospher of the camera room was when this image was taken.

ok, I'm weird...but please post them.


You're not weird. I love old photographs as well. Some of them are absolute stunning in quality, especially when you think about the tools they had. ;)
 05/01/2007 11:40:07 PM · #13
Right now I'm gong through 2 albums that I had my mother send me. I'm doing a project where I need pictures from my childhood. It's amazing how the different quality images have age in different ways. I have 3 pictures taken within 4 years of each other and one has faded to a pastel yellow and blue. One has faded to a rusty red-orange from the greens and blues fading out. The 3 is crisp and bright like it had been taken yesterday.

Then there's two amazing finds in the back of the album which are 2 prints of my father in B&W. On is His Graduation and the other is his Military Portrait (Army MPs). They are in such great condition.
 05/02/2007 07:01:11 AM · #14
Thanks to everyone who has posted!

It may take me a while (due to work/family/etc.), but I will post before & after pics of them when I'm able to. (and hopefully my scanner actualy works - I haven't actually tried it since it was installed! :-0)

05/02/2007 08:38:48 AM · #15
Originally posted by Germaine:
It sounds to me as if you have made a reasonable attempt to figure out who the photographer is.


I am not a lawyer, but I'm not sure a quick google is legally considered a 'reasonable attempt' to find someone.

Originally posted by rex:

I say scan em and print em. Who will know?

Now I know people will jump me for saying that but who will ever know anyway and if I was the photographer would I care about photos taken 30 years ago and that answer is no.


So if nobody knows, then it's not a crime and it's not wrong? So I can break into your house when you're away and sleep in your bed, do my laundry, wash my cat and car, surf the net, and as long as I clean up before I go and you never know, it's OK?

Just because you don't care doesn't mean no one else does.

To the OP Try contacting //www.operationphotorescue.com/ -= they're restoring pics from New Orleans' flooding and if there are any legal issues on this matter they'd probably have the answers.
 05/02/2007 08:56:43 AM · #16
Originally posted by saracat:
Thanks to everyone who has posted!

It may take me a while (due to work/family/etc.), but I will post before & after pics of them when I'm able to. (and hopefully my scanner actualy works - I haven't actually tried it since it was installed! :-0)
I would have the photos professionally scanned. If you are going to be doing a lot work to restore them, then you might as well work from the best possible original.
 05/02/2007 09:05:07 AM · #17
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
Originally posted by rex:

I say scan em and print em. Who will know?

Now I know people will jump me for saying that but who will ever know anyway and if I was the photographer would I care about photos taken 30 years ago and that answer is no.


So if nobody knows, then it's not a crime and it's not wrong? So I can break into your house when you're away and sleep in your bed, do my laundry, wash my cat and car, surf the net, and as long as I clean up before I go and you never know, it's OK?

Just because you don't care doesn't mean no one else does.


Breaking into my house is different. I don't even see how you can compare the two. Also the problem I have noticed with most here is they are so protective of thier photos that they will never get any business. These photos were taken over 30 years ago..........relax
 05/02/2007 09:47:27 AM · #18
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
attempt' to find someone.

So if nobody knows, then it's not a crime and it's not wrong? So I can break into your house when you're away and sleep in your bed, do my laundry, wash my cat and car, surf the net, and as long as I clean up before I go and you never know, it's OK?

Just because you don't care doesn't mean no one else does.



I was on the way to the store for some apples and oranges but thanks to you I've got some now. I think the OP went ABOVE and BEYOND any call of duty to the original photographer.
 05/02/2007 10:26:16 AM · #19
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
Do the photographs contain a copyright notice?

If they do not, and they were taken before 1977, this suggests they are in the public domain, in which case, you would be able to freely reproduce them.

~Terry


Originally posted by saracat:
The photos are dated 1973, and there is NO copyright notice on them


This would appear to be pretty conclusive. There are no further moral or legal issues - you can use the images as you will.
 05/02/2007 10:32:42 AM · #20
Originally posted by "prof_fate":

I am not a lawyer, but I'm not sure a quick google is legally considered a 'reasonable attempt' to find someone.


If the copyrights have expired, such is not even necessary.

BESIDES.....

When Matthew and I are both in agreement. Be afraid...be very afraid!

;)
 05/02/2007 10:39:55 AM · #21
Hypothetical now though, say the images were from 1980 and the original photographer is not easily avaiable.

Is it illegal to scan, alter and re-print a photo you didn't take if you are doing so for purely personal reasons and not making a profit off it? Is asking the photographer permission even required?
05/02/2007 12:00:05 PM · #22
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Hypothetical now though, say the images were from 1980 and the original photographer is not easily avaiable.


It would be in breach of copyright to do so. However, it may also be "safe" to do so. It would usually be "safe" if there were no financial consequences: this means no significant profits for you, and no significant detriment to the author.

My own view is that copyright needs to be considered practically in the context of our society. People here get very worked up over tiny technical breaches - I would recommend that they did not do so. The breaches that matter are those that have ramifications.

For example, I would have no qualms about retouching and reprinting the OP's photo, even if it were subject to copyright. The copyright is worth so little and the context so unobjectionable that it does not warrant the attention that we have given it.


05/02/2007 01:06:37 PM · #23
thanks for the reply Matt, that's pretty much what I was thinking.
 05/02/2007 01:22:35 PM · #24
Another thought, not related to the copyright issue, which I believe has been addressed... if you *can* locate the photographer (probably a long shot, unfortunately) it might be possible to have prints made from the original negatives. This obviously would be a huge advantage over working from the damaged prints. Scanning the negatives would probably yield the best possible quality. Worth the money, if it's possible.
I recently went through this. I found three old wedding pictures of my parents, posed studio shots taken in the mid-1940s. The photographer is long, long gone and the negatives I'm sure have been destroyed. These were done on MF film, but the prints were made on a textured paper (a strange diamond-embossed pattern... yuck). I would love to be able to purchase modern prints made from the original negatives, but I had to settle for duplicating them myself. The results are good, but not what they could have been.
 05/02/2007 01:37:39 PM · #25
I'm Ricardo Fernandez! I'm sending my guys with baseball bats!
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