Please don't go for the worst score

Tamron SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8 Di II LD Aspherical (IF) for Canon

04/30/2007 03:40:29 PM · #30

So I went for a brown award and I pulled it off. Be pissed off if you like but in doing this little experiment, I learned some valuable things. So ... since I am the reason this tread exists, let me give my thoughts

1) I can enter any photo I damn well please. It met all the challenge requirements and some might even have liked it in a weird way. So I am fully justified in entering it. And for those who don't know what entry I am speaking of, here it is

2) What is so different about me purposely entering a bad photo with intent to score badly and someone else entering a terrible photo without the intent to score badly? Both images will score badly and neither of us will learn much about photography in the process. I see 3-5 of these terrible photos in every challenge. I just vote what they deserve and move on.

3) This is where things get interesting for me. By entering this challenge with the intent to score badly, I got to see how people vote. Most specifically, I got to see how low most DPCers will vote even if the entry is the worst one by far. Well the answer is NOT LOW ENOUGH. How could 3/4 of all the voters think my entry was a 2+? And more amazingly, how could 50 voters (not counting the anti-troll) think it was a 4+?

4) I got 36 comments before the voting ended. That is amazing. 1st place only got 21 comments. When I entered my first challenge, Neon Signs, I would have loved to have gotten 36 comments trying to help me become a better photographer. But no, I got 2 and both were positive. Yet the entry ended up at 4.46 or 8% of the field. This photo was terrible in every way. Some commenters tried to give words of advice and that is all that should be given on an entry like this. All the folks who commented that it was oof or too small, everyone already knows that. Either type something useful or skip the comment.

As for my final remarks

- We have a 1-10 scale for a reason folks, so try to use it. And remember a 5 is average.
- If you see an absolutely terrible shot, vote it low and move on. If you feel free to leave a comment, try to make it helpful and not just state the obvious.

Message edited by author 2007-04-30 16:19:35.

Phil

Canon EOS-7D

04/30/2007 03:53:33 PM · #31

Why not just stop wasting your comments on tiny, noisy, out of focus shots and start giving them to the borderline 4,5 and 6 images? I think it's pretty easy to tell someone what's wrong when the image is 160x160 and blurry. However; when you start commenting on photos that need just a little something to put it over the top, you might find that it'll help your own shooting.

KaDi

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6

04/30/2007 03:56:22 PM · #32

Originally posted by TJinGuy:

You can and you did but that hardly justifies it. I can shoot you if I damn well like...but that won't justify my actions.

Originally posted by TJinGuy:

2) What is so different about me purposely entering a bad photo with intent to score badly and someone else entering a terrible photo without the intent to score badly? ...

It's like intentionally leaving a tack on someone's chair and watching them sit on it...basically, not funny for the sitter.

Originally posted by TJinGuy:

3) This is where things get interesting for me. By entering this challenge with the intent to score badly, I got to see how people vote. Most specifically, I got to see how low most DPCers will vote even if the entry is the worst one by far. Well the answer is NOT LOW ENOUGH. How could 3/4 of all the voters think my entry was a 2+? And more amazingly, how could 50 voters (not counting the anti-troll) think it was a 4+?

People vote differently...dead horse.

Originally posted by TJinGuy:

4) I got 36 comments before the voting ended. That is amazing. 1st place only got 21 comments. When I entered my for challenge, Neon Signs, I would have loved to have gotten 36 comments trying to help me become a better photographer. But no, I got 2 and both were positive. Yet the entry ended up at 4.46 or 8% of the field. ...

You seem to be impressed by quantity but argue for quality....hmmmm?

Originally posted by TJinGuy:

This photo was terrible in every way. Some commenters tried to give words of advice and that is all that should be given on an entry like this. All the folks who commented that it was oof or too small, everyone already knows that. Either type something useful or skip the comment.

If "everyone" knows that then there are a whole heck-of-a-lot of people doing the same experiment as you--and on their first challenge entries, no less!
Besides, some commenters take pity on those that may be inexperienced in some way...whether children, differently-abled, people with possibly lousy monitors, etc.

As for my final remark:
You pulled a prank and some folks didn't like it. Are you truly surpised that something you designed to get a reaction did?

levyj413

Apple iPhone 15 Pro Max

Tamron SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8 Di II LD Aspherical (IF) for Nikon

04/30/2007 04:02:14 PM · #33

See everything KaDi said? Read it again and pretend I said it.

But you're not the only one, only the latest one. I didn't mention you by name because it's the general idea, not just you. Someone else did, but not me.

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR II

04/30/2007 04:02:25 PM · #34

Originally posted by dudephil:

This is exactly my point about comments. Very well put.

basssman7

Nikon D500

04/30/2007 04:05:17 PM · #35

I cannot believe that someone would purposely waste everyone's time by doing this. There is no other way to describe it except very selfish.

As all the previous commenters have stated, you purposely "duped" caring individuals into trying to do their best to offer words of encouragement to someone they thought was a very poor, beginnning photographer. People that do this are turning DPC into a "high end photographers club" because those are going to be the only shots that get any comments or discussion, and the person that is still learning will not get the contructive comments needed to get better. In short, there will be no learning factor involved anymore if this type of attitude prevails.

That does not even take into account the fact that the entry in question (last place in kitchenware), by purposely trying to do this, has totally humiliated and embarrased all the other photographers who's images finished in the bottom 25 or so, but even when they were trying to do well.

I think that it is an arrogant "show off" type move to think that you are so good at photography that the only excitement you get anymore is to try and do poorly, which makes fun of the others that were trying to do well, and just barely managed to do better because they are still learning.

pawdrix

Nikon D700

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.4D IF

04/30/2007 04:09:12 PM · #36

...

Message edited by author 2007-04-30 16:33:18.

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR II

04/30/2007 04:16:57 PM · #37

Originally posted by KaDi:

As for my final remark:
You pulled a prank and some folks didn't like it. Are you truly surpised that something you designed to get a reaction did?

I am not going to argue with over your views but I will comment on your final remark.

I did not "pull a prank". I tried to get a new low photo on this site. That is a challenge I took on. But in doing so I also received some valuable insight into how DPCers vote and leave comments. And that makes it an experiment and one that turned out to be very revealing I might add.

basssman7

Nikon D500

04/30/2007 04:19:24 PM · #38

you find the fact that some people gave you a "pity vote" of 4 or so interesting and a learning experience? You need to get out more.

I don't suppose the folks who genuinely tried to help, thinking that you were a beginner, will be getting a nice apology from you for wasting their time and compassion?

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR II

04/30/2007 04:21:35 PM · #39

Originally posted by basssman7:

I did not apologize because there is no need to. I did try to thank them though. From my entry's "Photographer's Comments" I wrote this morning.

"Next I want to thank all the people truly tried to help me as if I was a beginner photographer, your advice would have been helpful to any new DPC'r."

Message edited by author 2007-04-30 16:23:11.

basssman7

Nikon D500

04/30/2007 04:26:59 PM · #40

Originally posted by TJinGuy:

You sound pretty arrogant for someone who is only an average photographer.

The one thing that will keep any photographer from getting better is the belief that they are already very good.

thegrandwazoo

Nikon D750

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

04/30/2007 04:29:02 PM · #41

Man this site sure has lost it's fun bone...

Very sad that something like this has all your panties in a bunch.

I remember when DPC used to prefer laughing over fighting...

:-(

Message edited by author 2007-04-30 16:29:14.

pawdrix

Nikon D700

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.4D IF

04/30/2007 04:33:06 PM · #42

Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:

Man this site sure has lost it's fun bone...

Very sad that something like this has all your panties in a bunch.

I remember when DPC used to prefer laughing over fighting...

:-(

You're absolutely right...

(deleting my comment)

shutterpuppy

Sony Alpha a7

Canon FD 70-210mm f/4.0 MF

04/30/2007 04:50:11 PM · #43

Originally posted by TJinGuy:

4) I got 36 comments before the voting ended. That is amazing. 1st place only got 21 comments. When I entered my first challenge, Neon Signs, I would have loved to have gotten 36 comments trying to help me become a better photographer. But no, I got 2 and both were positive. Yet the entry ended up at 4.46 or 8% of the field. This photo was terrible in every way. Some commenters tried to give words of advice and that is all that should be given on an entry like this. All the folks who commented that it was oof or too small, everyone already knows that. Either type something useful or skip the comment.

If you feel free to leave a comment, try to make it helpful and not just state the obvious.

You say you would have "loved" to have gotten that number of comments when you were first starting out, but then you crap all over the comments that, in your opinion, only said stuff that "everyone already knows."

But here's the deal - if the shot had been submitted by someone who wasn't trying for a deliberate brown, but was really trying to do their best, then those "obvious" (to those who have more experience) things would be the very things that the budding photographer would need to work on first, and thus the things that they would most need to know. For someone who doesn't understand how to size a photograph to keep it within the size requirements, pointing out that it's too small (and, best case, pointing them to the DPC tutorial on sizing for the web) is helpful and constructive. If a photo is blurry, it might be because the person is handholding in low light and they don't know that they should try a higher ISO or use a tripod.

The fact that some people deliberately created crappy photos in an attempt to "get a brown" means that when most voters see a really bad photo they will automatically assume that it is a brown attempt, which for most means not commenting on it. These types of "experiments" are counter productive, because the assumption they engender deprives submitters who authentically need help of the good will that the voters need to be willing to leave helpful comments.

edit for clarity

Message edited by author 2007-04-30 22:33:59.