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04/23/2007 12:50:37 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by aerogurl:
For MAK, you have lovely photos and would be a shame to leave the site, regardless of the ban. For others with Ban's, take it like men/women, take your punishment, learn from it, stay with DPC, and pull something positive from the experience. |
NOTE He never said he's leaving. He said he's not renewing and that he's got a lot on his plate coming up. |
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04/23/2007 01:04:04 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by JawnyRico:
1 vote here and there does not alter someones score that much. |
See, the thing is one vote can make the difference.
For example, on Insects II I came 4th. If just one of my 6 votes had been a 10 instead that would have been enough to land me the yellow ribbon. Finishes this close aren't uncommon, that's just an example that sprang to mind for some reason :P.
I'm not being bitter or pointing fingers or whatever (the third place photo was better than mine so it would be pretty cynical to complain about it), just trying to illustrate that although it's natural to think that one or two votes out of over 200 can't affect the result that much, the fact is they can.
And yeah, it's all very clever to make sarcastic posts about how much of a tragedy it is voting a photo high "because you like it", and that it's just a competition for virtual ribbons on the Internet. But like it or not it can make a real difference, and IMO for as long as we're doing this we might as well try and make it a FAIR competition for virtual ribbons on the Internet. And I applaud the SC for doing their best to try and maintain that.
I think it's sad for some people to be handed bans for this, but that's the way it goes. Hopefully we can all learn from it and move on.
Originally posted by JawnyRico:
On a side note, if you recognize someones picture (maybe they are in their shot) and think its a nice shot, are you not supposed to vote on it? |
Indeed, ideally you shouldn't vote in that situation. If you are aware of your bias and overcompensate for it, you might just end up skewing their score the other way...
splidge
edit: fixed quoting
Message edited by author 2007-04-23 13:05:19. |
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04/23/2007 01:12:54 PM · #53 |
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04/23/2007 01:23:22 PM · #54 |
I am quite afraid to comment now because of the post below. And in all honesty, I do not know if you guys know each other. But I do hope it is friendly ribbing between the two of you.
Not to steal MAK's thunder here, but I too am a guilty party and have been suspended. I joined late last year, and dragged my friend in with me. We did not really know anyone here at first, so just started comparing pics and cheered each other on. And being her friend, I did vote high on a lot of her pics because I really enjoyed them, and thought they were beautiful. It was a one-track mind thing: to support my friend. It just did not dawn on me that I was cheating others. That is not how I think. Although a lot of you will question that now.
At this point, no one needs to go on and do the rah-rah "you are cheating other voters" chant. She did have that "unfair" advantage from ME where I had a little more time to think about her pic than other pics. And I do not know if what I did SKEWED other votes. BUT I did not vote other pics LOWER to boost her score (or my score even). There were many challenges where I gave high scores to a lot of pics at the same time, AND, I noticed there were several times where I gave blue and red pics 5's and 6's. It was not out of spite, but purely based on my taste.
SO first - since some of you are salivating for this - I made a mistake. I did something that did not flow with the guidelines of the site and I am sorry. And yeah, this is after I was "CAUGHT"... (lol like I was in hiding, snickering at my clever ability to allude the DPC police). No matter what I say, there will be plenty of people who will chew up this post and me with it, spit me all over the ground and stomp on me. Reaction of others is something I cannot control, but I will be experiencing a wide range of feelings while I read the backlash.
What I have found personally upsetting on this thread and in the SC original thread, is the people who are willing to make generalizations about those of us who were banned/suspended. I made a mistake for sure but now people are questioning my integrity, my self-esteem, my sense of honesty.
What I also find in poor taste is that MAK comes in here, opens up, ADMITS to doing wrong, and yet someone comes in here and totally closes the door on that apology with the "oh but you were caught" rationale. And then justifications from others with the RIGHT way to vote. I mean - the man apologized. That was a big bold thing to do, come out, and ADMIT it in the open.
I can tell you, after I got the message, I was feeling LOUSY, feeling bad because an aspect was introduced to me that I had never even considered (that this is like cheating), I came to the boards, read the posts that were akin to "down with fraudulent voters!", and then felt REALLY LOUSY about myself as a human being, and thought, "what the heck do I do next?" And since then, I have seen two people who were brave enough to "come out" so to speak. And I applaud them for admitting to all of you, what had occurred. They stepped past their egos, came here, and still got stomped on by a few. What is that really saying?
Ok so here I am - out in the open now. Wound me with your words, say what you want, I have admitted to what I have done. I made a mistake and here I am.......
Originally posted by Simms:
I cannot believe how MAK has abused the trust we put in him, personally I think 3 months isnt enough punishment. He should be dragged out into the street like the pig he is and shot like a dog.
"Dirty little cheat, dirty little cheat.." thats what he will be known as if he doesnt do the decent thing and leave this website. Scurry away like the cheating rat he is.
Personally I am glad he wont be back. I have a sour taste in my mouth from actually talking to him a few times. To think I shook his theiving hand at the Richmond GTG earlier this year. Urrrghh.. Seriosuly, I feel physically sick about it. I AM UNCLEAN!!!
<5 minutes later>
I have just showered in neat-bleach and still feel dirty. I need to call my counsellor. My fragile mind is now SHATTERED BEACUASE OF THAT SCUMBAG..
I hope he rots in hell. |
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04/23/2007 01:29:56 PM · #55 |
Sorry can I just clear a few things up here..
1. I am not leaving the site at all I simply cannot afford the membership now after paying out all the crap for living and going back to Japan (Im on the sickness benefit here 57 pound a week don't go very far between 3)
2.i Have not, nor would I, at any time in my life consider a homosexual relation with Mark Simms even though he does live just down the road.
3.Mark Simms
4.I really like this site, why would i go anywhere? nowhere else will have me.
Finally can I just express my thanks to everyone (with the exception of one Mark Simms) for the kind support and the flowers and chocolates, but don't worry so much about the mer next time.
Bless.
BTW.. Team Spartan will need a new TEMP captain now... |
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04/23/2007 01:40:12 PM · #56 |
I have no friends and my wife doesn't participate...
I didn't "cheat", but I think that most of those who did and bothered to post in this thread were not malicious in their intentions.
SC has noticed and addressed the issue and hopefully now I'll be able to win a ribbon so can we all just "get along" now?
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04/23/2007 01:40:36 PM · #57 |
Some whiners are a lot worse unfortunately. lol.
Originally posted by JawnyRico:
Honestly this is just a photography web site. We are not in front of congress here.
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04/23/2007 01:53:11 PM · #58 |
| kinda amazing here in this thread where the shooter becomes the victim. |
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04/23/2007 02:15:21 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by sher:
What if everyone on this site had one or two people to which they felt compelled to give consistently high scores. How much might that skew the voting results? |
If everyone did it, it would equal out and make no difference. If you try to enforce it and only catch some of the people while others get away with it, you (SC) are having an influence on the vote. If you end up banning one person that was a statistical anomaly and just so happened to vote one person a lot of high scores you just banned someone for no reason. If I̢۪m not allowed to vote on certain photos it will have an effect on their final average (i.e if I̢۪m a high voter and vote high on every photo except my wife̢۪s, I boosted everyone̢۪s average score except my wife̢۪s, thus lowering her placement). If I really wanted to cheat to boost my wife̢۪s score and be within the rules I could vote low on every photo in the challenge and then not vote on my wife̢۪s photo. Thus this new rule is pointless if my goal is to boost my wife̢۪s placement.
Originally posted by sher:
Sometimes the difference between the ribbons is just one 10 vote...or the difference between a yellow ribbon and 4th place. |
And if a tree falls and no one is around does it make a sound? We are not electing the president of a country here. I̢۪m willing to bet we haven̢۪t had a 100% ethically correct vote on a challenge in a long time. People always recognize other people̢۪s models or styles. While I agree there should be an effort to go after cheaters, I think this goes a little far. I have to imagine it will take up a lot SC time as well, time that could be spent on more productive things.
Originally posted by sher:
It's upsetting that you feel we are grandstanding and declaring our high moral values but one of the cornerstones of this site is its voting integrity and fairness to everyone and we will not apologize for trying to maintaining those ethics. |
My point is, which hunting for cheaters is becoming too much of a past time here. People can̢۪t accept that their score was what it was so we need to find a cheater to place the blame on. Now SC is entertaining those thoughts. Do we really want to waste all our time hunting down the cheaters? I̢۪d rather be out taking pictures.
For what it̢۪s worth, the scores I gave my wife were the scores I felt the photos deserved. I wasn̢۪t alone because each of the photos had multiple high scores. She has taken crap photos, I tell her they are crap, and then she doesn̢۪t enter them in a challenge. Was I biased when voting on her photos? Sure! But are people biased towards shots with cats in them? Are people biased towards shots with nudity, religion politics, flags, flowers, cheese or dog poop? If I can̢۪t vote based on my biases, what can I vote on? When judging a photo is your bias for the subject more or less ethically important in your judgment then your bias towards person that took it?
Also, if this new friends and family ban on voting sticks, we can no longer have self portrait challenges because a lot of the votes would be suspect. And you̢۪ll have to investigate the people that consistently use the same models, styles, locations, title format... With this new rule in place should I not vote on any photo where I think I may know who took it?
And finally, I am not for emailing out your photo to all your friends in hopes of getting them to vote higher. I̢۪m not saying that is okay and we should turn a blind eye to that. I̢۪m a strong supporter of keeping your photo anonymous. I̢۪m saying that sometimes for perfectly okay reasons a photo is not anonymous. This should not prevent anyone from fairly voting on that image. If you vote it high or low, that is your opinion and that is what your vote should be.
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04/23/2007 02:29:34 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
... Do we really want to waste all our time hunting down the cheaters? I̢۪d rather be out taking pictures. ... |
How is any of this a burden to you? If Langdon and SC want to invest their time pursuing this, then hats off to them.
Your ability and time to "be out taking pictures" isn't impacted at all. |
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04/23/2007 02:32:14 PM · #61 |
I got 30 days suspension. I assume it is for my wife, my 9 year old daughter and MAK. I meant no harm by it. I like MAK's work. A matter of fact, he is my mentor. I spend countless hours a week on Skype (thank goodness for free international voice over IP) going over edits and how to do certain effects. As a test, w/o seeing his Kitchen shot, I found it within 2 minutes of searching the icons. I know his style, i like his style, and i will vote high on his style because I want to learn his style. I don't think I voted in over a month.
I also constantly recognize models, and mountain ranges in Iceland with glowing skies. I know who took the shots and I vote accordingly.
I doubt my wife or daughter will submit pictures anymore because of some crude comments by members here so I won't be voting on their pictures anymore. I don't even think they look on this site for pictures at all.
I am ok with my punishment, but if I remarry, or my wife starts on DPC again, I doubt she will hide her pictures from me, and if I like them, I will vote on them. My daughter can do no wrong, so if she took the picture of the back of the lens cap, she will get a 10 from me.
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04/23/2007 02:32:52 PM · #62 |
Used to be we would get some popcorn out about now and watch the show!
Sorry to hear about the ban and I agree wuth everything said so far.. |
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04/23/2007 02:38:08 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by TonyT:
My daughter can do no wrong, so if she took the picture of the back of the lens cap, she will get a 10 from me. |
? |
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04/23/2007 02:40:27 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by klstover:
Originally posted by TonyT:
My daughter can do no wrong, so if she took the picture of the back of the lens cap, she will get a 10 from me. |
? |
And that my fried is what is wrong! You can not honestly vote on the merrit of the photo and the vote becomes an I love my daughter vote. |
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04/23/2007 02:40:57 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by klstover:
Originally posted by TonyT:
My daughter can do no wrong, so if she took the picture of the back of the lens cap, she will get a 10 from me. |
? |
It was really said as a joke. But if you knew the relationship between my daughter and myself you would agree with the statement. She's a daddy's girl, and I am wrapped around her finger.
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04/23/2007 02:40:59 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
I̢۪m saying that sometimes for perfectly okay reasons a photo is not anonymous. This should not prevent anyone from fairly voting on that image. If you vote it high or low, that is your opinion and that is what your vote should be. |
It should not, but sometimes does. If Person A gives every submission by Person B a ten, that is probably not "fair" voting. If Person A gives Person B votes at all similar to the collective vote given the same images, it probably is.
We are not looking to see if you are voting on a family member's images, but whether there's a consistent pattern of voting those images exceptionally highly regardless of how those images are perceived by the total voting pool.
I vote and comment on my son's occasional submissions, but I apply the same criteria I would for any other photo. |
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04/23/2007 02:42:17 PM · #67 |
And that my fried is what is wrong! You can not honestly vote on the merrit of the photo and the vote becomes an I love my daughter vote. [/quote]
Whatever. It's all opinion. Can you please tell me what my opinion should be?
Message edited by author 2007-04-23 14:42:52.
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04/23/2007 02:44:01 PM · #68 |
| Is this the right room for an argument? |
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04/23/2007 02:47:44 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by TonyT:
It was really said as a joke. But if you knew the relationship between my daughter and myself you would agree with the statement. She's a daddy's girl, and I am wrapped around her finger. |
*nod* |
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04/23/2007 02:48:09 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
We are not looking to see if you are voting on a family member's images, but whether there's a consistent pattern of voting those images exceptionally highly regardless of how those images are perceived by the total voting pool. |
Ok then. As a paid member (I actually pay for 3 memberships) as the primary breadwinner in my home.....can I please have the list of violations I have made, and what the decision was based on. If I remove my wife and daughter's photos from the mix (only about 10), that leaves only the votes on MAK, and like I said earlier, I can recognize his work from a mile away...what else did I do wrong? or was that enough to get a 30 day ban?
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04/23/2007 02:48:41 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by TonyT:
And that my fried is what is wrong! You can not honestly vote on the merrit of the photo and the vote becomes an I love my daughter vote. |
Whatever. It's all opinion. Can you please tell me what my opinion should be? [/quote]
Simple, your opinion should just agree with me! lol
I have the same problem as othetr it is hard not to see the effort my son puts into his images and he into mine, but I would rather do well in a challenge without getting a higher vote because of the relationship, maybe it's just me but it means more to win when you know it came from fair competion. |
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04/23/2007 02:55:33 PM · #72 |
Personally, I am all in favor of everyone giving Nobody higher scores than they deserve.
Then, Nobody would be to blame for this whole mess...
Nevermind.... |
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04/23/2007 02:59:43 PM · #73 |
| I love it, nobody knew what happened! |
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04/23/2007 03:00:32 PM · #74 |
Originally posted by TonyT:
Whatever. It's all opinion. Can you please tell me what my opinion should be? |
Your opinion can be whatever you want. Your vote should be whatever you'd give the photo if you didn't know who took it and had never seen it before. If you can't attain that degree of objectivity, then just skip voting on it altogether and there will be no problem.
As someone pointed out, an "undeserved" high vote does not really help the recipent photographer, since it makes a miniscule difference in their score, and they might not even notice it.
A helpful comment would mean a lot more, and note that you can leave a comment but skip voting, which would provide the desired encouragement to the photographer with no risk to the (non-)voter. |
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04/23/2007 03:09:03 PM · #75 |
Originally posted by TonyT:
Whatever. It's all opinion. Can you please tell me what my opinion should be? |
It should be that you love and support your daughter. Be there to cheer her on when she gets legitimately high scores and to give her sympathetic hugs when she does not. And in doing so, set a good example for her, teaching her that cheating comes in many different of shades of subtlety, and that even if you don't realize until later on that you've done the wrong thing that you should from then on do the right thing instead.
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