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04/18/2007 12:28:09 PM · #151 |
When I heard about this terribly sad incident, as an ex-soldier I immediately thought about how every single day there are IEDs (improvised explosive devices) killing noncombatants, insurgents and our people in Iraq. Those are not expensive to create and deploy. There is no licensing. Those could be rigged at ANY campus, or downtown Smalltown USA. As we saw in Oklahoma City. It is indeed about knowing our neighbors, and that difficult trade-off between freedom and security.
Personally I'd rather have many more armed, trained citizens quietly packing. All those killings in eastern Canada where there laws against their possession shows me that as long said by the gun lobby, criminals and the insane will always find a way to get guns.
Message edited by author 2007-04-18 20:38:03. |
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04/18/2007 12:51:56 PM · #152 |
| its tough to keep guns out of Canada, regardless of our gun laws, when we share a border with the US with its more permissive gun laws. Its a frustration for Canada. Australia has had much better success with its tough gun laws due to its borderless nature. |
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04/18/2007 12:57:14 PM · #153 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by DowseDesigns:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by NstiG8tr:
Originally posted by xianart:
handguns are for killing people. |
This has to be one of the most ignorant things I've ever read. |
Other than for target practice, the use of handguns would be ???
Ray |
Hunters using them for protection against wildlife (as stated earlier). |
You are pulling my leg right. Don't know about you my friend, but I have done a lot of hunting and not once did I carry a hangun for that... no sir. To be honest with you... if you took the time to ask most police officers, they would quickly inform you that they normally use a shotgun to deal with vicious dogs because handguns are almost useless.
Word of caution... don't bring a handgun with you in the woods to fend off grizzlies... you probably wouldn't like the results.
Ray |
Personal experience talking? From what I have read a .44 or .357 will stop a bear. Ask a hunter what they carry with them in case of bear attacks, most will tell you a rifle or shotgun will be worthless once the bear has hold of you or is charging you. Bears are very fast 30+ mph and you don't always hear them coming.
eta: Every hunter I personally know carries with them a .44 or larger pistol when elk hunting in case of such an attack, they don't ever plan on the rare occurance happening to them, but, better to be safe than sorry.
Message edited by author 2007-04-18 13:10:41. |
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04/18/2007 01:05:47 PM · #154 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Flash:
CNN article
The striking difference between those that would restrict and those who would freely permit is thier view on society as a whole. Those who want restrictions on firearms believe that society as a whole is unstable and not trustworthy - thus remove weapons. Those who want a more permissive approach to firearms, believe that society as a whole are trustworthy and responsible - thus encourage firearm ownership.
The opposite of the rhetoric. Pro Gunners actually believe that only the handfull of lunatics need controlling, while the anti-gunners believe that everyone is suspect.
Quite a remarkable difference. |
I think this is quite interesting and I fit the mold. I believe we are all capable of such ghastly things as murder or genocide if we had the proper pressure applied to us. In religious/moral terms man is inherently evil and not inherently good.
It does give a good insight into the other side. It makes very little sense to hand guns out to everybody if everybody is bad (or at least capable of being bad), but if only a few people are bad then it does make sense. |
Dr. - my respect for you has taken an exponential leap. I truly appreciate your understanding of this post and your succinct conclusion.
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04/18/2007 01:15:20 PM · #155 |
Here's my concern in all of these shootings -
Where are the heros?
Why are we, as human beings, so willing to cower and wait and hope that our time is not up when these gunmen calmly take time to reload -
There were hundreds of people involved - the better part of 100 injured or killed - did anyone make a run at the gunman, anyone try to sacrifice for those dying around him/her?
It's hard to know what you will do in a situation like that until you are actually there - but in all these stories everyone becomes a victim - waiting to see if they are next.
I'm surprised that, out of the hundreds that are involved, there aren't more stories of a few who take steps trying to end it - armed or not -
What would I do? Hard to tell? Maybe with the frequency of these occurring, we should ask ourselves and make decisions now on what our actions will be. |
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04/18/2007 01:19:01 PM · #156 |
When I read this thread my first question is not about firearms and our right to bear them, but rather what tools do we have to help these individuals and prevent such tragedies.
What about the teacher who was so disturbed by his writings that she pulled the student from class and tried to work with him one on one and encourage him to speak with another voice?
She must feel like Cassandra who was able to foresee the destruction of Troy...but was unable to do anything about it.
We are all disturbed and touched by such madness. |
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04/18/2007 01:19:02 PM · #157 |
| Professor Librescu died a hero saving the lives of his students... |
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04/18/2007 01:23:52 PM · #158 |
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Professor Librescu died a hero saving the lives of his students... |
And he was a 76 yr old holocaust surviver -- a time when heros were made through adversity and horror. There was a student who barricaded the door of his classroom with a desk and the assistance of a few others.. the gunman was not able to get into their room and shot at the door. |
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04/18/2007 01:35:41 PM · #159 |
Originally posted by hihosilver:
When I read this thread my first question is not about firearms and our right to bear them, but rather what tools do we have to help these individuals and prevent such tragedies.
What about the teacher who was so disturbed by his writings that she pulled the student from class and tried to work with him one on one and encourage him to speak with another voice?
She must feel like Cassandra who was able to foresee the destruction of Troy...but was unable to do anything about it.
We are all disturbed and touched by such madness. |
So True! I am for learning how to identify and work with people who are troubled, in this case he was identified but no one knew what to do with or for him, it has been the same in several of the past instances, they have been identified but the system is not in place to help them.
As for gun control, I personally do not own a gun and do not want one but would never try to ban them (someone might shoot me...lol), I just do not believe that is the answer. As for control, in this case the controls that are in place worked, he was elible to buy a gun, he bought it leagally, and they knew when and where he purchased it, anything past those controls begins to look like a ban on guns. |
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04/18/2007 01:46:26 PM · #160 |
Gun control is a tough issue, both sides have very very valid points. WHat I am absolutely fed up with is people saying they need a gun for protection of their family and home. Is this really why you have a gun? If so do you keep it readily avail at all times? probably not. Its a constitutional right, you don't need to defend why you own one.
Even the story in this thread of someone who had their home broken into and felt helpless so they went out and got a gun. Thats an accident waiting to happen. Last thing to purchase based on emotion would be a firearm. Would the gun have made a difference? Would you choose leave the room you locked yourself into to go shoot this person? Locking yourself in and calling the police was the best thing to do. Are you really ready to take a life, do you know you are able?
Did the thought that this person may just disarm you and shoot you with your own gun ever occur? If someone is there to do you harm, I don't think they are just going to quietly walk away like in the movies. In close quarters, you don't really have the advantage w/ a gun anyways. What if there are multiple attackers?
Sleep with a cell phone under your pillow if you need to feel safe. If you hear someone call teh police and lock yourself in. If they attacked you by surprise, a gun would have done nothing. |
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04/18/2007 02:09:23 PM · #161 |
Originally posted by digitalknight:
Here's my concern in all of these shootings -
Where are the heros?
Why are we, as human beings, so willing to cower and wait and hope that our time is not up when these gunmen calmly take time to reload -
There were hundreds of people involved - the better part of 100 injured or killed - did anyone make a run at the gunman, anyone try to sacrifice for those dying around him/her?
It's hard to know what you will do in a situation like that until you are actually there - but in all these stories everyone becomes a victim - waiting to see if they are next.
I'm surprised that, out of the hundreds that are involved, there aren't more stories of a few who take steps trying to end it - armed or not -
What would I do? Hard to tell? Maybe with the frequency of these occurring, we should ask ourselves and make decisions now on what our actions will be. |
I understand your point, and will at least listen to everyones opinion. But when you are just sitting in class, and then all of a sudden a guy walks into your room and starts shooting, maybe its just me, but I don't think I am gonna go, "Hey everybody, you wanna rush this guy." If you haven't been in a situation like this, which neither have I, there is no way you can think about what to do in 1 second. The older man from Israel, heard him coming, had time to think and block the door, a true hero. There was another kid. Last name started with a "Z" drug a table with another kid infront of the door so he couldn't get in. Another excellant move. But to say that they cower and not rush to me is just insane. A guy that has all that ammo and it takes 2 seconds to reload. He can about take anyone out or at least injure them while they are racing towards him. I think in a situation like this you would just be in shock, and be like a deer staring at head lights. Just my take on it. |
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04/18/2007 02:17:34 PM · #162 |
Originally posted by Jmnuggy:
Even the story in this thread of someone who had their home broken into and felt helpless so they went out and got a gun. Thats an accident waiting to happen. Last thing to purchase based on emotion would be a firearm. Would the gun have made a difference? Would you choose leave the room you locked yourself into to go shoot this person? Locking yourself in and calling the police was the best thing to do. Are you really ready to take a life, do you know you are able?
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<> I'll try to address this in a civilized manner, but since this is a very real experience that you probably have not had to go through, I find that attitudes like this do make me just a little angry. First off, I was raised around guns, I know how to handle them. I did not purchase the gun, it was given to me by my father who was a police officer. Locking myself in and calling the police was my only alternative at the time and I was very fortunate that the thug didn't decide to try to come into the room... if he had tried, I would have had no way to defend myself. I agree that that is the best course of action, but now I can also say that if he did come through that door, he wouldn't have left alive (thanks to my buddy Smith and Wesson). You are young and may or may not have a family. I have a wife and child and I can honestly say that I would die for both of them... I can also say that I would kill for them if my hand was forced and I wouldn't bat an eye!!! My opinion is that once someone crosses my threshold with intentions of doing my family harm, I WILL stop them at all costs. That feeling has been magnified exponentially since the birth of my son.
Unless you have been there, you can not begin to imagine the loss of sleep and emotional trauma an experience like this causes. I neglected to mention earlier (because really it's no one's business), but my wife was completely undressed when she walked in on this criminal in our living room. She screamed and ran into the bedroom at which point I had to make every effort to protect her... What if he had decided he wanted to have a little "fun" with the little skinny naked white girl he just saw??? I'm a small man, physically there is only so much I can do when it comes to a physical struggle. A gun drastically puts the odds in my favor...
Two weeks later our house was broken into a second time while we were at work. By then we had an alarm installed and he left as soon as it went off... Have you been personally invaded in this manner? If not, then don't begin to think you understand what it feels like. We didn't stay another night in that house. We made the decision to put our beautiful 1932 bungalow that we had restored with our own hands on the market because we wanted to have children and didn't feel safe staying there. It is one of the most difficult things I've ever had to do... I backed down because it was the responsible thing to do.
Originally posted by Jmnuggy:
Did the thought that this person may just disarm you and shoot you with your own gun ever occur? If someone is there to do you harm, I don't think they are just going to quietly walk away like in the movies. In close quarters, you don't really have the advantage w/ a gun anyways. What if there are multiple attackers?
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You think I don't know this? You think this thought hasn't occurred to me every time I replay the scenario in my head??? My only response is that if I pull the trigger, I won't stop until I'm out of bullets... at that point he can HAVE the gun. Let me run another scenario by you... what if he did decide to come into the bedroom by force, what if he subdued me and did unspeakable things to my wife? What if I was left on this earth and my wife was violated and I'm left thinking... "What if I could have done more to prevent this?"
Originally posted by Jmnuggy:
Sleep with a cell phone under your pillow if you need to feel safe. If you hear someone call teh police and lock yourself in. If they attacked you by surprise, a gun would have done nothing. |
I completely agree, the gun does no good in a surprise situation, that's why it remains LOCKED in a FIRESAFE under my bed... If I can't get to it in a safe and timely manner, then no one will...
Message edited by author 2007-04-18 14:21:10.
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04/18/2007 03:19:18 PM · #163 |
Originally posted by jdfido:
[quote=RayEthier]
Personal experience talking? |
Absolutely jd, and you might be interested in knowing that in my youth I had my own trap line and sled dogs. My father "Trapped" all of his life and well he didn't carry anything but a rifle and some rather impressive knives.
I need not ask any hunter friends of mine what they carry because I know for a fact that they DO NOT carry pistols... I guess the critters in your part of the world are just a shit load faster and smarter than they are here.
If you can't hear a bear coming my friend you really ought to stay in the city... probably safer that way.
Ray
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04/18/2007 03:23:12 PM · #164 |
Lee,
No offense intended. I don't even know you, I would never insult you and your family. Your story happened to be the most relevant at the time. Im glad everyone was safe.
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04/18/2007 03:43:50 PM · #165 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by jdfido:
[quote=RayEthier]
Personal experience talking? |
Absolutely jd, and you might be interested in knowing that in my youth I had my own trap line and sled dogs. My father "Trapped" all of his life and well he didn't carry anything but a rifle and some rather impressive knives.
Ray |
Maybe not so much as hearing the bear coming as stumbleing upon it? The woods to me seem more safer than the city, traffic is pretty hectic at rush hour here. The only reason for the pistol was the added protection it can offer in certain situations, to each his own.
I guess what I don't understand is why it wouldn't be a good idea to carry such a weapon in that situation.
My personal experience comment was not meant to be rude and question your ability to handle yourself (I am sorry if it came out that way), but rather more of why can't a pistol such as a .44 or .357 protect you from a bear, those are very powerful firearms. |
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04/18/2007 03:45:44 PM · #166 |
Originally posted by "frisca":
Australia has had much better success with its tough gun laws due to its borderless nature." |
Really, because I have read repeated articles that while Australia's cities may be safer. Their rural areas have seen large increases in violent crime.
Originally posted by drachoo":
I think this is quite interesting and I fit the mold. I believe we are all capable of such ghastly things as murder or genocide if we had the proper pressure applied to us. In religious/moral terms man is inherently evil and not inherently good." |
I am in somewhat agreement. In that I believe mankind is capable of great tragedy. That every man must choose ever day whether to be noble or ignoble. I believe we fail to be perfectly noble, but that the vast majority are not wholly ignoble either.
Originally posted by "digitalknight":
Where are the heros? |
Where have all the good men gone?
Yes, we have such a limited quantity of heroes that a man who leaps down into a subway tunnel to protect another actually gets to meet the President. Not saying it wasn't worthy. I thought it was amazingly noble and showed the best aspects of humanity.
But in what should be more common is now amongst us, a rarity.
Rather, we will have 30 people stand on a bridge and watch a woman being beaten by a man for a mere fender bender until the woman it terrified so greatly that she flees off of the bridge plummeting to her death.
Could not 30 onlookers, half of whom were probably men, have done something? No they sat there watching the spectacle awaiting the arrival of police.
Would I be so wrong into saying that I think police officers may be a negative in our society for certain reasons. Not the role itself, but the way it is presented.
At every turn I hear our government agencies and police officers expressly state "don't take matters into your own hands...that's what we are here for". In truth, EVERY citizen should take matters into their own hands. It is wrong to stand aside and watch evil happen and the mere excuse being that you were awaiting an official officer.
Now, this does not mean to take "revenge" into one's own hand. There is a significant difference. But inaction is often it's own sin.
On the flip side, I've had a couple of off duty officers put it bluntly. The protection of your family is foremost your job. We will always try to be there to help and protect. But we can't be every where and it's impossible to be there all the time. And this is just the simple truth of the matter. Most crimes are over by the time police are even called. How can they render assistance? Usually, it's only when someone is in a deranged passion and desiring to make a point (ie: holing themselves up with hostages or such) that police officers are able to do more than pursue the criminals. This is not to say that is the heart of police officers. I've known some that wish they could be at every crime that happens.
Originally posted by "frisca":
And he was a 76 yr old holocaust surviver -- a time when heros were made through adversity and horror. There was a student who barricaded the door of his classroom with a desk and the assistance of a few others.. the gunman was not able to get into their room and shot at the door. |
Thanks for posting this. I had heard about the student who got others to barricade the door. But I had not read that the gunman was unable to actually get through. This is very comforting. To me, it shows that wise and quick action saves lives.
Those people in the room are alive because one young man had enough head on his shoulders to secure the entranceway. Perhaps the attempt could have failed...but action is better than no action.
I believe that in a similar situation I would have either pursued subdoing the gunman if I were able to find the right tools and support. Or done a similar attempt to secure our area and protect the lives near me.
Some might feel that it is wrong of me to suppose what I would do. But I've striven to do the right thing my entire life (at least that which I believe to have been right). No, I don't have absolute surety. And people say you never know how you will act in such situations. But I don't believe that to be true. As one usually has an idea of how they would act in various situations. And I tend to have met those situations and acted in such fashion. Perhaps, because I have already thought about what I would do. So the decision has already been made. I would react, endeavor to either subdue or protect and am willing to sacrifice to do so. Making such a choice ahead of time enables one to do so when the time comes. (I am less sure if I could ever kill a man, even in self-defense. I've not been able to come to a clear choice on that. So I'd probably hesitate and die for it. Merely become a statistic quoting by anti-gun lobbyists and proof having a gun doesn't help. However, I am determined that I would use a gun to protect my family. Then cover the man up until police arrived so as to hide all imagery from my family. Because that would be part of protecting. I hope I never see such a day for I know that once you take a man's life, even in self-defense, a part of your soul dies.
Originally posted by "papabo"b:
in this case he was identified but no one knew what to do with or for him |
Sadly, this is all to commonly true.
Originally posted by "Jmnuggy":
WHat I am absolutely fed up with is people saying they need a gun for protection of their family and home. Is this really why you have a gun? If so do you keep it readily avail at all times? probably not. Its a constitutional right, you don't need to defend why you own one. |
Then you simply don't understand. If I have a gun in the house it will be readily available at all times in our home.
Why don't we keep it around and readily available at all times? Because most states have laws preventing us from doing so.
But I grew up in San Diego during the 80's. It was actually legal to carry a sidearm openly in public. On a number of occasions I recall my father with his sidearm. A Ruger Security .357 revolver.
Sadly, had the criminal who perpetrated the McDonald's massacre in San Diego county happened one week earlier it would not have been what it was. He would have been dead as my father and his shooting buddy were in that McDonald's at the same time one week earlier. Both good marksman who shot fairly regularly.
It's a constitutional right. Which actually means we need to defend it and protect it continously or we will lose it.
Originally posted by "Jmnuggy":
Thats an accident waiting to happen. Last thing to purchase based on emotion would be a firearm. Would the gun have made a difference? Would you choose leave the room you locked yourself into to go shoot this person? Locking yourself in and calling the police was the best thing to do. Are you really ready to take a life, do you know you are able? |
I think this is rather untrue....
Would the gun have made a difference...absolutely.
Would they have chosen to leave the room? Perhaps not, but he could have simply fired the gun and the result would have likely scared the burgler away. Realize that most burglers are chickens and don't want armed conflict. Most will flee if they feel threatened. Having a gun and firing a warning shot is usually enough to cause most burglers to quickly flee.
You can't assure that you will be able to reach a phone. Nor that your phone line wasn't cut. You can't be sure they only want your material goods and don't want your daughter's virginity. How do you know if you are dealing with a burgler or a serial killer.
Locking yourself up and calling the police is a good thing to do. Nothing in your house is worth your life or your families. However, what happens if you're locked up in the room and waiting and they start coming up the stairs.
Originally posted by "jmnuggy":
Did the thought that this person may just disarm you and shoot you with your own gun ever occur? |
No, not if you are trained and have practiced.
Now if you are decided. You can't unarm someone unless you are within a certain distance. There is an exam that demonstrates how a man with a knife within a certain number of feet can usually overpower a man with a holstered gun. You have a split second to decide to draw and shoot.
However, that test is invalid in a situation where I will have my loved ones out of the way. And I will be across from the door. If that door opens I am shooting. He's not going to get a chance. He'll probably meet a couple of .357 as he comes through the door.
But this is why you have to be determined. And if he knows we are in the room (and he will because I will fire a warning shot). And he approaches, he is demonstrating clear intent to cause my family harm. He will be dead.
(Cops, please make sure you announce yourselves before entering.)
Originally posted by "jmnuggy":
Sleep with a cell phone under your pillow if you need to feel safe. If you hear someone call teh police and lock yourself in. |
Why would that make me feel safe? 6 calls to 9-1-1 in my life. Zero responded too. Even the one in which we thought someone might have been stabbed or hurt. The police never showed up. Even though I and two neighbors had made calls.
And I've read numerous testimonies of people in such situations in which it took 20 or more minutes and sometimes hours before police responded.
So sorry, what you advise seems to me a useless assurance.
Message edited by author 2007-04-19 10:48:05. |
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04/18/2007 03:52:09 PM · #167 |
Originally posted by jdfido:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by jdfido:
[quote=RayEthier]
Personal experience talking? |
Absolutely jd, and you might be interested in knowing that in my youth I had my own trap line and sled dogs. My father "Trapped" all of his life and well he didn't carry anything but a rifle and some rather impressive knives.
Ray |
Maybe not so much as hearing the bear coming as stumbleing upon it? The woods to me seem more safer than the city, traffic is pretty hectic at rush hour here. The only reason for the pistol was the added protection it can offer in certain situations, to each his own.
I guess what I don't understand is why it wouldn't be a good idea to carry such a weapon in that situation.
My personal experience comment was not meant to be rude and question your ability to handle yourself (I am sorry if it came out that way), but rather more of why can't a pistol such as a .44 or .357 protect you from a bear, those are very powerful firearms. |
I can assure you that I was NOT the least bit offended, and you are right...to each his own. Unfortunately,in this country, unless you happen to be a game warden, you are NOT allowed to carry a firearm such as those you describe.
I am indeed quite familiar with the weapons you allude to, as I own and have owned a myriad of firearms, all of which were registered.
As for the bear, unless the animal is ill or injured, it is more likely to hear you coming long before you get anywhere near it and will actively strive to avoid you, with the exception of those found in some parks where they beg from the tourists, and in the frozen tundra where they rummage through garbage dumps.
I digress... but from my ramblings I am certain you have managed to decypher that I am not in that camp that advocates that everyone should have the right to carry a concealed weapon.
Ray |
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04/18/2007 03:54:53 PM · #168 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by jdfido:
[quote=RayEthier]
Personal experience talking? |
Absolutely jd, and you might be interested in knowing that in my youth I had my own trap line and sled dogs. My father "Trapped" all of his life and well he didn't carry anything but a rifle and some rather impressive knives.
I need not ask any hunter friends of mine what they carry because I know for a fact that they DO NOT carry pistols... I guess the critters in your part of the world are just a shit load faster and smarter than they are here.
If you can't hear a bear coming my friend you really ought to stay in the city... probably safer that way.
Ray |
Guess it depends on your neck of the woods... I know of many people who hunt in Alaska that carry pistols when they hunt...
Originally posted by Jmnuggy:
Lee,
No offense intended. I don't even know you, I would never insult you and your family. Your story happened to be the most relevant at the time. Im glad everyone was safe. |
None taken, I guess that particular subject hits a raw nerve with me... didn't mean to lash out at you.
The point is you'll find arguments on both sides of the coin, both of which carry some weight. The proverbial cat has already been left out of the bag and firearms in the United States are so common that it would be impossible to pass legislation that could even kind of regulate the use of guns.
I'm an American and damn proud of my right to bear arms... I find the observation made earlier in this thread quite intriguing and honestly had never considered until today.
I guess that in a way I do consider the human race (as a whole) at the very least good intentioned. Granted there are a LOT of bad apples out there and I don't claim to have answers on how to correct all of the wrong out there. I DO know my neighbors and find them to be very honest and decent people (now that we've moved). I don't mind if he owns a gun... I'm not worried that he may shoot me one day if a limb off of one of my trees falls into his pool. I'm not worried about the countless card carrying "concealed weapons" people who live and work around me every day. What happened in Virginia was truly a tragedy and my heart goes out to all who were touched by the senseless killings that happened on Monday, but I don't think tougher gun legislation is the answer.
We can argue this until we're all blue in the face, but it won't change the simple facts.
FACT: Guns are readily available in the US.
FACT: Tougher gun laws will make it more difficult to obtain guns legally.
FACT: Criminals and those intent on doing harm will still be able to find/purchase guns.
FACT: If a gun is not available, someone like the young man behind Monday's killings will find another method to carry out their crime.
It's natural to want to place blame when something like this happens, but the simple truth is in this case the only thing that could have stopped what happened on Monday is prophylactic intervention. LOOK at the warning signs, PAY attention to your surroundings and those who surround you. As stated earlier get to know your neighbor. Maybe if more drastic intervention was taken when the warning signs were there, this massacre may have never happened... we'll never know the answer.
When you ban guns, the determined will just find another way... No guns were used on September 11th and that was one of the darkest days in American history.
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04/18/2007 04:17:08 PM · #169 |
So bascially, the argument is 'because bad guys (wearing black hats) have guns, good guys (wearing white hats) need guns'... and what happens when a 'good guy' gets upsets and becomes a 'bad guy' - BINGO he already has a gun! So the answer is even MORE people need guns!
Maybe Cowboy films are to blame? |
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04/18/2007 04:19:35 PM · #170 |
Originally posted by cheekymunky:
So bascially, the argument is 'because bad guys (wearing black hats) have guns, good guys (wearing white hats) need guns'... and what happens when a 'good guy' gets upsets and becomes a 'bad guy' - BINGO he already has a gun! So the answer is even MORE people need guns!
Maybe Cowboy films are to blame? |
No body says you have to have a gun, the argue ment is have themn or not. Its have the option or not. |
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04/18/2007 04:20:05 PM · #171 |
How about forced education for owning a firearm w/ renewal of that "education" every 6months or you can't buy ammunition. Obviously guns are here to stay. Education seems like the next logical answer. People should have to attend extensive training before they can own a firearm and should also be required to shoot on a consistant basis. All of this should be recorded and monitored. The people who can monitor it would be the ones selling ammunition.
This shouldn't be a problem for the gun advocates because they like to shoot and are usually the most trained anyway. |
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04/18/2007 04:26:12 PM · #172 |
I don't in any way want to diminish the tragedy of April 16, but to put it in perspective with other world events, today's headline on Google News:
Middle East News
148 killed, dozens wounded in Iraq blasts |
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04/18/2007 04:28:53 PM · #173 |
Originally posted by Jmnuggy:
How about forced education for owning a firearm w/ renewal of that "education" every 6months or you can't buy ammunition. Obviously guns are here to stay. Education seems like the next logical answer. People should have to attend extensive training before they can own a firearm and should also be required to shoot on a consistant basis. All of this should be recorded and monitored. The people who can monitor it would be the ones selling ammunition.
This shouldn't be a problem for the gun advocates because they like to shoot and are usually the most trained anyway. |
problem is that, if you interpret the second amendment as gun ownership being a right, then requiring education for it is like requiring education (and licensing fees) to exercise the right to vote. poll taxes have been ruled unconstitutional, as were literacy tests at the polls; they were seen as ways of trying to infringe upon rights.
i have mixed feelings, so i'm not advocating one side or the other... just pointing this out. |
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04/18/2007 04:29:07 PM · #174 |
Originally posted by Jmnuggy:
How about forced education for owning a firearm w/ renewal of that "education" every 6months or you can't buy ammunition. Obviously guns are here to stay. Education seems like the next logical answer. People should have to attend extensive training before they can own a firearm and should also be required to shoot on a consistant basis. All of this should be recorded and monitored. The people who can monitor it would be the ones selling ammunition.
This shouldn't be a problem for the gun advocates because they like to shoot and are usually the most trained anyway. |
While a good idea, really all you're doing is making it more difficult for law-abiding citizens... I promise you that your average thug won't give a flying rats ass about "education" and "firearm renewal". My wife and I are very busy and don't have time for what we already have on our plates... adding one more thing to the list would be next to impossible.
On a side note, I keep a shotgun in our closet and have instructed my wife on how to load it and pull the trigger. If she's ever caught in a similar situation when I'm not home, she is to call 911, take our son and hide in the closet with the gun aimed at the door... if the door opens... pull the trigger... simple yet effective... Needless to say I don't stay out late and sneak into the house after she's gone to bed... It's funny how past experiences shape how we live our present lives.
Message edited by author 2007-04-18 16:31:07.
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04/18/2007 04:31:08 PM · #175 |
Originally posted by Gatorguy:
I don't in any way want to diminish the tragedy of April 16, but to put it in perspective with other world events, today's headline on Google News:
Middle East News
148 killed, dozens wounded in Iraq blasts |
One little, itty-bitty, teeny-tiny difference.
There is a freakin' war in Iraq. This was a college campus where young people go to learn, assumedly in safety.
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