doin it again...Levels - DPChallenge Forums

07/11/2003 07:07:49 PM · #1

I've been considering quitting DPC for a few weeks now, but I think what I really need is what we were talking about a few weeks ago - levels. I don't care if there's two levels, four levels or what, but I really don't need JohnPDipshit telling me that a circle isn't round or someone's butt doesn't fit the round challenge. I am tired of JoyOus (I hope these aren't real usernames) saying my focus and saturation are off because of the oversaturated and oversharpened crap we get on here sometimes.

This isn't a diss on the noobs, but really. There's "making sure we're doing it right" and there's "ridiculously overtechnical, overpicky, beat everyone's entry down for SOME reason" voting.

I don't think this is a result of a crappy score I got. I have a 5.6 going, which is above my average, so I'm happy with that. It's just ... DPC is losing good people. Good people are not submitting. Good photogs have decided that they will not put their work up for scrutiny to this crowd and good photogs are deciding they need to find a better way to learn these days.

Why? What can we do about things like that?

1) open editing for advanced users
2) current rules for others

Thinks?

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

07/11/2003 07:13:57 PM · #2

Hmm... about the different levels, I've only been taking photos since April, and would have classed myself as a beginner. It was then immensely satisfying to get a ribbon in a challenge with people who would consider themselves 'pros'. That's why I don't think there should be different levels. And come on, how many photos do you look at every challenge that have NO relevance at all? I think most people are pretty fair about what is relevant for any given challenge, and a few are extra picky. You can ignore them. Haven't those people ALWAYS been about here? What's with the low morale in this place at the moment? For heavens sakes, lets have more open editing challenges if that's what it takes... everything else seems okay!

sagestudio

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

07/11/2003 07:17:52 PM · #3

I also like the levels idea. I think the more advanced photogs stand to benefit from more advanced competition and critique, and average folks will have a chance at a ribbon. I'm not sure I would have open editing rules for the advanced challenge, just an occasional "no editing rules" challenge like we have now. I think the powers that be should set an average score lower limit, then users can choose whether or not to join the upper level if they qualify. I do have to agree with you Mav, the super-strict challenge interpretations, and narrowmindedness is getting a bit tiresome (not that I assume I would qualify for the advanced level). This was discussed at length some time ago, did anything come of it, site council folks?

SharQ

Canon EOS-30D

07/11/2003 07:28:54 PM · #4

Originally posted by mavrik:

I don't care if there's two levels, four levels or what, but I really don't need JohnPDipshit telling me that a circle isn't round or someone's butt doesn't fit the round challenge. I am tired of JoyOus (I hope these aren't real usernames) saying my focus and saturation are off because of the oversaturated and oversharpened crap we get on here sometimes.

I see what you mean, and agree about the nitpicking about the challenges. But that is the whole point of the website. It is DP CHALLENGE, and part of it is to see if you can come up with something that fits a (sometimes narrow, sometimes broad) topic and/or challenge.

As for the technical stuff, perhaps we should have a system in place for noting if people WANT this kind of feedback. For my sake, if my tech is off, I want to hear about it. That is the only way you get better.

If you don't want to be a better photographer, why would you enter your pictures into competitions and challenges?

- haje

Pedro

Nikon D200

Nikon AF Zoom-Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8 VR DG IF-ED

07/11/2003 07:29:04 PM · #5

Does it really matter what those guys think? When I see a comment that's clearly from someone who hasn't a clue, I'll just take it for what it is...an opinion from someone without a clue.
Hell I think I'm pretty smart about some of this stuff, but I'm sure lots of my comments are dismissed as someone who 'just doesn't understand their art'.

I think there already are for all intents and purposes two levels - members and non-members. True there are no criteria for the above other than the $25, but if you look at the quality of entries, member challenges are higher (on average, obviously not in all cases).
One of the things I like is the ability to test my skills against all judges - qualified and not.

If I want a professional opinion, I'll go ask a professional, not 7000 random people who signed up on a website.

I think there are some really bright and talented people here, and their colours usually show by what they say. As for the others...who cares?

Since my ego, employment, mental status, marital status, and retirement savings plan don't require me to get high scores here, I don't really need them.

A few intelligent comments about my shot are all i really look for anyway (critical or otherwise); anything more is gravy, anything less is just noise.

I'll step off my soapbox now. Stick around Mavrik.

07/11/2003 07:32:01 PM · #6

Mavrik, having looked at your profile... is this thread not a kneejerk reaction to some constructive criticism you received for your last picture? I would have to agree with a lot of the comments about saturation and sharpness, and wonder if there are some sour grapes going on here. I hope I'm wrong... in fact it would be a real shame, because there are excellent pictures in there, especially given how much 720 owners moan about their cameras!

07/11/2003 07:44:59 PM · #7

@bob - not at all sour grapes. That bethel pic is over and done and I would have posted this 5 days ago if it was about that. lol I've had sour grapes, I admit. My mag picture WAS oversaturated (I still believe most mag covers are).

If I were complaining, it would be about my 5.09 UAQ, where people thought I "didn't meet the challenge." (oh there's a new one) - but even that is balanced with the Night 5.6, so I'm doing ok shotwise - not unhappy at all.

@pedro - it doesn't really matter what my commenters think if I don't think they are worth listening to, but I have 15 comments on those 2 pics. Out of them all, I have ONE from either a) a previous ribbon winner or b) someone who's average is .3 more than mine or better. The other 14 are from newbies, people I have never heard of, etc. I don't need the score, nothing depends on it - but i can get the critiques from photocritique.net or photographytips.com, as well as other places. I use this place to learn and I don't think I've learned as much in the last month and a half as my first 3 here.

@SharQ - I fully understand about meeting the challenge and I guess people thought i didn't on UAQ but it's come to the point where people are giving REALLY low scores for GOOD pictures that BARELY don't fit the theme or don't fit it in THEIR estimation - ie a picture of fireworks at night or (as someone was saying) "I don't think circles depict round." That's ridiculous.

I want to be a better photog - that's my WHOLE motivation for this thread.

Sony DT 11-18mm f/4.5-5.6 Aspherical ED Super Wide Angle Zoom

07/11/2003 07:55:10 PM · #8

I still think that people are saying in a roundabout way that they will give more marks for imagination. And I don't think it's unfair to have anticipated a lot of fireworks photos appearing for A Night on the Town. I see them as meeting the challenge... but they'd better be pretty good to rise above the others and rise above the fact that most people would see it as unimaginative considering how many fireworks there would have been all over America. And I don't think you should take one person making remarks about circles not being round as a barometer of DPCers.

JPR

Sony Alpha a55

07/11/2003 08:00:27 PM · #9

hey mavrik:
i've been feeling frustrated with this site lately too. i think we should just hang around and submit and try not to make a fuss over it. after all, there's really nothing we can do. right now, my nude shot is doing really bad (4.8). I know why, of course, it's cause of these damn free editing challenges. I made digital art again and people don't like art. well, the image is meaningful to me and something that i never would have done if it hadn't been for the challenge, so that's all I care for. And the three or four photographers that left positive comments and good scores on my image so far are people who's work I respect. I just have to learn that this is just a photography site and that the images i upload straight out of the camera usually end up doing better, which baffles me, but it's true. I'm just mad that all the focus seems to be on the nudes (for good reason :) now. I wanted some high last minutes votes on my UAQ to get it above 6 where it was a little while ago but fell down. I've noticed my scores have been dropping significantly at the last minute recently, whereas they used to go up. Perhaps this is an indicator of the changes in site attitude. I'm just going to have fun, submit crazy pictures, and enjoy the stupid comments i get back.

Sony DT 11-18mm f/4.5-5.6 Aspherical ED Super Wide Angle Zoom

07/11/2003 08:03:06 PM · #10

Mine is a bit digital art as well, I'm a bit disappointed with how it's doing as I LOVE it, but I knew it would be a little controversial when I entered it. Logically I knew that digital art doesn't go down well here, but I thought I had done it relatively subtly. 5.8 is still okay though...!

JPR

Sony Alpha a55

07/11/2003 08:05:35 PM · #11

Originally posted by BobsterLobster:

how are you going to complain about a 5.8? Mine wasn't subtle at all (i'm sure you can guess which one it is), hence the 4.8. Thank's for the 8 BTW and the helpful comment. :)

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

07/11/2003 08:07:36 PM · #12

Whenever I get like this, just say "Mav, you're being Dagny" and I promise to STFU because you're right, Jason, there's nothing we can do.

M

alanfreed

Nikon Z9

07/11/2003 08:44:15 PM · #13

While some are saying they'll quit unless there are new "levels" added here, I just wanna say that I would strongly consider quitting if they ARE added. I find this a completely unneccesary complication to an otherwise great site. Just my 2 cents.

Sony DT 11-18mm f/4.5-5.6 Aspherical ED Super Wide Angle Zoom

07/11/2003 08:45:30 PM · #14

Who do you learn from and how on dpc, alan?

JPR

Sony Alpha a55

07/11/2003 08:51:30 PM · #15

Originally posted by mavrik:

Whenever I get like this, just say "Mav, you're being Dagny" and I promise to STFU because you're right, Jason, there's nothing we can do.

M

lol. what is "dagny"? I am unfamiliar with that term.

just have fun if at all possible.

alanfreed

Nikon Z9

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

07/11/2003 08:52:25 PM · #16

I learn from the good AND the not so good. People who consider themselves to be on the lower end of the scale here, so to speak, will always learn to become better by being in better company. To me it's a really bad move to try to segregate the site into quality levels.

What good does it do a lesser-skilled photographers to languish among lesser-skilled photographers?

I have used this analogy before, and I think it works here. I like to play tennis. Years ago I used to play with a girl who was on our high school tennis team, and she was really good. Playing with her made me a better player.

When I was in college, I often tried to twist arms to get someone to play tennis with me, and I'd play from time to time with my college roommate, who... well... sucked. And by playing with him, I actually got worse and worse as I tried to "dumb myself down" to his level.

I've won a few ribbons here, but I typically wind up with shots in the middle of the pack. I love being immersed with all sorts of skill levels, and aspire to move closer to the top by examining the skills of the folks here who tend to do well consistently.

Likewise, when a challenge is over I find myself quickly going to the bottom of the pack, too. I do that not to poke fun at the people at the bottom, but to learn from how they presented their work, and why it was criticized.

Originally posted by mavrik:

Who do you learn from and how on dpc, alan?

07/11/2003 08:55:46 PM · #17

Originally posted by JasonPR:

Originally posted by mavrik:
Whenever I get like this, just say "Mav, you're being Dagny" and I promise to STFU because you're right, Jason, there's nothing we can do.

M

lol. what is "dagny"? I am unfamiliar with that term.

just have fun if at all possible.

Dagny Taggart from a book...she was the last of those who were trying to save the ship (country) when everyone else had already made their decision to keep trying or give up. Dagny reminds me that I have to give up when I see the pointlessness of the battle.

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

07/11/2003 08:57:20 PM · #18

Originally posted by alansfreed:

I like to play tennis. Years ago I used to play with a girl who was on our high school tennis team, and she was really good. Playing with her made me a better player.

When I was in college, I often tried to twist arms to get someone to play tennis with me, and I'd play from time to time with my college roommate, who... well... sucked. And by playing with him, I actually got worse and worse as I tried to "dumb myself down" to his level.

My point exactly. I want to play your high school girls team not your college roommate. (I like tennis too)

M

alanfreed

Nikon Z9

07/11/2003 09:04:28 PM · #19

Originally posted by mavrik:

My point exactly. I want to play your high school girls team not your college roommate. (I like tennis too)

But my college roommate would want to play with me, if we want to keep stretching the analogy ;)

I can see your point, but I have no problem with JohnPDipshit telling me his misguided opinion. I can look up his profile and decide how seriously I should take his opinion, which is something I do from time to time. If I get a comment that I disagree with, I'll often look at the person's profile to see what their work and scores are like... and I'll either take it to heart or blow it off. It's not that tricky.

orussell

Canon EOS Rebel T6s

Canon EF 55-200mm f/4.5-5.6 II USM

07/11/2003 09:07:34 PM · #20

I do that all the time Alan.