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03/21/2007 04:50:20 PM · #1 |
I have decided at this point not to renew my membership when it falls due,My reason is that although I enjoy paricipating in as many challeges Iam Findig increasigly that the simple pleasure oof creating an image in camera has been overtaken by many photoshop tecniques such as tone mapping HDR etc have taken the simple pleasure of taking an image away and it seems that if you dont or wont or cant use these techniqus then you fall by the wayside.
I Look forward to more of the out of the camera challenges such as the TREEs challenge we had lately. which pushes the photographer into using their camera rrather than fixing it all in photoshop
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03/21/2007 05:06:03 PM · #2 |
I understand your feeling. While I think post processing is a key component to photography, I do feel a bit "fallen by the wayside" because I am not as good at post. When I look at the before and after ribboner's thread, I have wondered how vastly different my scores would be if I could post process well.
I try to think of it as a challenge; to not get discouraged, but instead try to learn all I can. But I can definitely identify with the feeling of the pleasure being at times taken away. |
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03/21/2007 05:08:56 PM · #3 |
I have to agree with you. The pleasure of taking photos for a challenge is becoming increasingly dulled by all the PS techniques. I fear that DPC is rapidly becoming a post editing site with the images getting more surreal and less about photography.
I shall be stepping away from challenges for a while to watch development here. Take a look at all the recent blue ribbons, red ribbons and yellow ribbons, then consider the processing involved. Fine, if that is the route you want to follow.
Well, I don't. I have little experience with PS, but even tho' my shots are basic, they are what comes out of the camera. I use very basic PS to adjust colour, sharpness and contrast.
I am putting my flame proof jacket on. |
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03/21/2007 05:13:41 PM · #4 |
I totally understand you and often feel the same way. Unfortunately if you are not a member you won't be able to enter the minimal challenges.
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03/21/2007 05:29:16 PM · #5 |
Perhaps I'm not the right person to comment, since I consider myself to be pretty competent at post-processing. But, being one who adheres to photo-realism 99% of the time, perhaps you might find my opinion of value. I feel that post-processing, whether it is to do something very artistic (read "change the photo dramatically") or to fine-tune a capture in a photo-realistic manner, is *very* important. It's the digital darkroom, and as such is half of the total "package."
I feel strongly that it's completely possible to score very high, and to ribbon, with photo-realistic shots, as long as those shots are compelling in subject, composition and yes, post-processing. The photo *must* speak to the viewer, convey emotion. It must do this in a short viewing period, which is the nature of the beast when we must vote on 200+ images per challenge. This is the real challenge of DPC. It matters not whether your bent is pure PJ work, or pure interpretive photographic art, connecting with the viewer is what it's all about.
Now all that said, shooting for challenges is not the only thing, and I'd hope not the major thing that keeps us motivated to shoot. I personally don't shoot specifically for challenges very often, but when a challenge catches my eye, I think first about what emotion or idea I'm looking to convey, and how to convey it clearly through image and title. I'm not always successful ;-)
I don't see DPC becoming a "Photoshopping site"; pot-processing has been an important component of winning here from the beginning, and will continue to be so, but excellence in photography will always be a requirement. When I say excellence, I'm not necessarily talking about technical excellence, but the ability to see a compelling composition and transform the capture into a final result that grabs the viewer. |
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03/21/2007 05:33:28 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by kiwinick:
I have decided at this point not to renew my membership when it falls due,My reason is that although I enjoy paricipating in as many challeges Iam Findig increasigly that the simple pleasure oof creating an image in camera has been overtaken by many photoshop tecniques such as tone mapping HDR etc have taken the simple pleasure of taking an image away and it seems that if you dont or wont or cant use these techniqus then you fall by the wayside.
I Look forward to more of the out of the camera challenges such as the TREEs challenge we had lately. which pushes the photographer into using their camera rrather than fixing it all in photoshop |
A curious reasoning for not renewing your membership, but probably as good as any.
To use an analogy from film based photography, a digital capture is like a negative in film. Rarely do you show off negatives, you make prints from them. Post processing in digital is like taking a film negative and making a print from it, you always make adjustments to make a good print.
In the digital world you almost always make adjustments through post processing to make a good final image. There really is no difference.
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03/21/2007 05:38:40 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by formerlee:
I have to agree with you. The pleasure of taking photos for a challenge is becoming increasingly dulled by all the PS techniques. I fear that DPC is rapidly becoming a post editing site with the images getting more surreal and less about photography.
I shall be stepping away from challenges for a while to watch development here. Take a look at all the recent blue ribbons, red ribbons and yellow ribbons, then consider the processing involved. Fine, if that is the route you want to follow.
Well, I don't. I have little experience with PS, but even tho' my shots are basic, they are what comes out of the camera. I use very basic PS to adjust colour, sharpness and contrast.
I am putting my flame proof jacket on. |
I think you and I do the same I also tend onl to the basic, The pure joy of photography outweighs the ability to turn a photograph into something else for me
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03/21/2007 05:44:27 PM · #8 |
Right! I enjoy taking photos. Some are good, most are crap, but it is the actual experience of taking them and the expectation of what has been captured.
The post processing is minimal, the moment is the desired result. Many are not perfect, but they capture that instant. |
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03/21/2007 05:45:45 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by kirbic:
Perhaps I'm not the right person to comment, since I consider myself to be pretty competent at post-processing. But, being one who adheres to photo-realism 99% of the time, perhaps you might find my opinion of value. I feel that post-processing, whether it is to do something very artistic (read "change the photo dramatically") or to fine-tune a capture in a photo-realistic manner, is *very* important. It's the digital darkroom, and as such is half of the total "package."
I feel strongly that it's completely possible to score very high, and to ribbon, with photo-realistic shots, as long as those shots are compelling in subject, composition and yes, post-processing. The photo *must* speak to the viewer, convey emotion. It must do this in a short viewing period, which is the nature of the beast when we must vote on 200+ images per challenge. This is the real challenge of DPC. It matters not whether your bent is pure PJ work, or pure interpretive photographic art, connecting with the viewer is what it's all about.
Now all that said, shooting for challenges is not the only thing, and I'd hope not the major thing that keeps us motivated to shoot. I personally don't shoot specifically for challenges very often, but when a challenge catches my eye, I think first about what emotion or idea I'm looking to convey, and how to convey it clearly through image and title. I'm not always successful ;-)
I don't see DPC becoming a "Photoshopping site"; pot-processing has been an important component of winning here from the beginning, and will continue to be so, but excellence in photography will always be a requirement. When I say excellence, I'm not necessarily talking about technical excellence, but the ability to see a compelling composition and transform the capture into a final result that grabs the viewer. |
Sure coming also from a silver halide backgrounf I have done my fair shair of dodge and burn and darkroom techniques, I think that Iam really doing similar things in digital as I did in the darkroom. Also I still do a lot of transperency photography and that hs to be done right in camera, with that there is no second chance, which digital perhaps does give
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03/22/2007 03:28:48 AM · #10 |
If you haven't yet, check out these threads:
minimal editing side challenge
explanation
Not sure what day they're on now but I joined one of the side challenges late and got a ton out of it anyway.
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03/22/2007 04:30:29 AM · #11 |
i feel the same way, infact if i could get a refund on my membership i would do (have only just re-paid), but even basic challenges are being over taken by people messing with the images, don't you think admins it would be better, to have for each challenge topic have two challenges an unedited and edited and people can only enter one, this would also stop the very high number of entrents to vote on one go. It would also be more like compareing like to like.
Originally posted by kiwinick:
I have decided at this point not to renew my membership when it falls due,My reason is that although I enjoy paricipating in as many challeges Iam Findig increasigly that the simple pleasure oof creating an image in camera has been overtaken by many photoshop tecniques such as tone mapping HDR etc have taken the simple pleasure of taking an image away and it seems that if you dont or wont or cant use these techniqus then you fall by the wayside.
I Look forward to more of the out of the camera challenges such as the TREEs challenge we had lately. which pushes the photographer into using their camera rrather than fixing it all in photoshop |
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03/22/2007 04:35:52 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by kirbic:
...pot-processing has been an important component of winning here from the beginning, and will continue to be so... |
Umm, I did not know that! :P
Message edited by author 2007-03-22 04:36:16.
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03/22/2007 04:36:22 AM · #13 |
Originally posted by richard42:
don't you think admins it would be better, to have for each challenge topic have two challenges an unedited and edited and people can only enter one, this would also stop the very high number of entrents to vote on one go. It would also be more like compareing like to like. |
I think the situation has been pretty well addressed by the addition of "expert" and "minimal" editing rulesets. Perhaps it would be nice if they could be used more frequently, but I don't think adding another layer onto what the challenges should consist of will be really beneficial.
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03/22/2007 07:13:31 AM · #14 |
Originally posted by kiwinick:
I have decided at this point not to renew my membership when it falls due... |
What ever your reasons..... I would miss your contributions. |
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03/22/2007 08:48:55 AM · #15 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by kirbic:
...pot-processing has been an important component of winning here from the beginning, and will continue to be so... |
Umm, I did not know that! :P |
Dood!!
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03/22/2007 05:53:56 PM · #16 |
While I sympathize with your problem, I don't see it in exactly the same way you do.
DPC has *always* rewarded shots that provide a difference. A punch. Something outside the norm. Always. This isn't a new phenomenon. We've gone through stages where a new form of post-processing becomes the style and trend for a time. From selective desaturation.. to the advent of neat-image, to grunge, to tone-mapping.. there has always been something. However, I also know that even despite these trends, if you *truly* go back through the challenges, you'll find that photographs that grab the imagination and the interest of the voter score high regardless of the processing that is used on them.
I urge you to take another look at the images that are on the front page right now. With the exception of Larus, Strikeslip, and Joey Lawrence.. most of these images up right now are incredibly devoid of strong, over-the-top processing... and I submit that even the three I mentioned, although using post techniques that are a far cry from "out of the camera", aren't exactly turning a photograph into some kind of surreal image.
I get mad at things on this site all the time. The sheep-hood of the voters, the people that learn really fast how to manipulate the masses and IMO, sometimes sacrifice personal integrity for the glory of the front page, the over-use of trends until it gets so saturated that even looking at a great photograph using said processing trend grows old, etc. I get mad at things like these, and then I usually eventually realize that I'm getting mad for the wrong reasons. What I'm usually mad about is the fact that I feel alone and isolated.. or, sometimes, simply just mad that I am unable to do these things myself.
This website has two parts. The first part are the challenges. The game. In order to play this game, you have to, despite your personal feelings, conform to the way the game is played. This is fact. You either learn this and do it, or you don't.
The second part is community. A place to learn, to laugh, to cry, to share, to socialize. A place where you can be you, in your own space, without too much worry. A place to experiment, to play, and to succeed and fail on your own terms.
These parts aren't always exclusive, nor are they always inclusive. A person can exist in any combination of the two.. play well/socialize well.. play well/socialize poorly.. play poorly/socialize well.. you get the idea.
What I get out of your post is that you have no real desire to play the game, and that's perfectly fine. That's a choice many make. However, I suggest that maybe you think about what membership here really entails, if your only consideration for not renewing it is because you don't mesh well with the players of the game. The membership goes far beyond the challenges, the game. It includes the community as well. It gives you access to extra forums. It gives you a portfolio so you can share your own vision. It gives you a space to sell your photos should you ever choose to do so. It gives you visibility.
It's always extremely hard to fight against the tide, and there's always a chance you may drown. However, there's always a chance you can swim against it successfully as well, even if it's just with a small group of people, but if you simply give up swimming.. then drowning becomes easier to do.
So if the anger and frustration you feel is strong enough that you feel you must stop swimming, then go boldly into the depths. Perhaps you'll find you can breathe underwater. Many do. I certainly spent some time there myself. However, I came to a realization that it's easier to fight against the tide with better tools.. and maintaining a membership is like keeping those tools. You don't have to play the game, but the community is there for you. Use it to your fullest advantage. Let the game play itself. |
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03/22/2007 06:00:42 PM · #17 |
Very thought-provoking post.
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03/22/2007 06:02:32 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by Artyste:
While I sympathize with your problem, I don't see it in exactly the same way you do.
DPC has *always* rewarded shots that provide a difference. A punch. Something outside the norm. Always. This isn't a new phenomenon. We've gone through stages where a new form of post-processing becomes the style and trend for a time. From selective desaturation.. to the advent of neat-image, to grunge, to tone-mapping.. there has always been something. However, I also know that even despite these trends, if you *truly* go back through the challenges, you'll find that photographs that grab the imagination and the interest of the voter score high regardless of the processing that is used on them.
I urge you to take another look at the images that are on the front page right now. With the exception of Larus, Strikeslip, and Joey Lawrence.. most of these images up right now are incredibly devoid of strong, over-the-top processing... and I submit that even the three I mentioned, although using post techniques that are a far cry from "out of the camera", aren't exactly turning a photograph into some kind of surreal image.
I get mad at things on this site all the time. The sheep-hood of the voters, the people that learn really fast how to manipulate the masses and IMO, sometimes sacrifice personal integrity for the glory of the front page, the over-use of trends until it gets so saturated that even looking at a great photograph using said processing trend grows old, etc. I get mad at things like these, and then I usually eventually realize that I'm getting mad for the wrong reasons. What I'm usually mad about is the fact that I feel alone and isolated.. or, sometimes, simply just mad that I am unable to do these things myself.
This website has two parts. The first part are the challenges. The game. In order to play this game, you have to, despite your personal feelings, conform to the way the game is played. This is fact. You either learn this and do it, or you don't.
The second part is community. A place to learn, to laugh, to cry, to share, to socialize. A place where you can be you, in your own space, without too much worry. A place to experiment, to play, and to succeed and fail on your own terms.
These parts aren't always exclusive, nor are they always inclusive. A person can exist in any combination of the two.. play well/socialize well.. play well/socialize poorly.. play poorly/socialize well.. you get the idea.
What I get out of your post is that you have no real desire to play the game, and that's perfectly fine. That's a choice many make. However, I suggest that maybe you think about what membership here really entails, if your only consideration for not renewing it is because you don't mesh well with the players of the game. The membership goes far beyond the challenges, the game. It includes the community as well. It gives you access to extra forums. It gives you a portfolio so you can share your own vision. It gives you a space to sell your photos should you ever choose to do so. It gives you visibility.
It's always extremely hard to fight against the tide, and there's always a chance you may drown. However, there's always a chance you can swim against it successfully as well, even if it's just with a small group of people, but if you simply give up swimming.. then drowning becomes easier to do.
So if the anger and frustration you feel is strong enough that you feel you must stop swimming, then go boldly into the depths. Perhaps you'll find you can breathe underwater. Many do. I certainly spent some time there myself. However, I came to a realization that it's easier to fight against the tide with better tools.. and maintaining a membership is like keeping those tools. You don't have to play the game, but the community is there for you. Use it to your fullest advantage. Let the game play itself. |
Very verbous and I think it covers what most people here feel at sometime. But I can appreciate what kiwinick is experiencing, best way I can describe it is like shovelling shit uphill! Whatever you do, however much you try to adapt to changing fashions, you always end up deep in it, up to your neck. All you dread is the command, 'Teabreak over, back on your heads!!'
It seems if you don't post process to extremes, and live in Iceland, you are doomed!!
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03/22/2007 06:14:32 PM · #19 |
| I couldn't agree with you more! sorry to see you go though! |
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03/22/2007 06:14:59 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by formerlee:
Very verbous and I think it covers what most people here feel at sometime. But I can appreciate what kiwinick is experiencing, best way I can describe it is like shovelling shit uphill! Whatever you do, however much you try to adapt to changing fashions, you always end up deep in it, up to your neck. All you dread is the command, 'Teabreak over, back on your heads!!'
It seems if you don't post process to extremes, and live in Iceland, you are doomed!! |
Personal frustrations, I feel, are beside the point. If one simply cannot, on a personal level, learn and figure things out in order to compete, that's not the site's fault. Or the voters. Or the competition's. I don't think that's what kiwinick is railing against though. He states that his own methods and convictions aren't being appreciated, and that's certainly true on a challenge level.. but I don't believe it's completely true on a community level.
Anyway.. we all decide what we have to do, and whatever kiwinick decides, I wish the best for him. |
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03/23/2007 02:29:06 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by kirbic:
Perhaps I'm not the right person to comment, since I consider myself to be pretty competent at post-processing. But, being one who adheres to photo-realism 99% of the time, perhaps you might find my opinion of value. I feel that post-processing, whether it is to do something very artistic (read "change the photo dramatically") or to fine-tune a capture in a photo-realistic manner, is *very* important. It's the digital darkroom, and as such is half of the total "package."
I feel strongly that it's completely possible to score very high, and to ribbon, with photo-realistic shots, as long as those shots are compelling in subject, composition and yes, post-processing. The photo *must* speak to the viewer, convey emotion. It must do this in a short viewing period, which is the nature of the beast when we must vote on 200+ images per challenge. This is the real challenge of DPC. It matters not whether your bent is pure PJ work, or pure interpretive photographic art, connecting with the viewer is what it's all about.
Now all that said, shooting for challenges is not the only thing, and I'd hope not the major thing that keeps us motivated to shoot. I personally don't shoot specifically for challenges very often, but when a challenge catches my eye, I think first about what emotion or idea I'm looking to convey, and how to convey it clearly through image and title. I'm not always successful ;-)
I don't see DPC becoming a "Photoshopping site"; pot-processing has been an important component of winning here from the beginning, and will continue to be so, but excellence in photography will always be a requirement. When I say excellence, I'm not necessarily talking about technical excellence, but the ability to see a compelling composition and transform the capture into a final result that grabs the viewer. |
Very pointed post. I have let my membership lapse, however am considering a membership again. The annual price is not prohibitive and the benefit of an online portfolio has its merits.
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03/23/2007 03:34:11 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by kiwinick:
...the simple pleasure of creating an image in camera has been overtaken by many photoshop techniques such as tone mapping, HDR, etc., have taken the simple pleasure of taking an image away, and it seems that if you don't or won't or can't use these techniqus, then you fall by the wayside... |
To me, this means I enjoy photography twice as much as you. :-(
I enjoy creating an image in camera (as best I can), then I double my enjoyment by sitting on the soft living room couch with a coffee and, maybe or maybe not, enhancing that image in Photoshop (as best I can). I find the act of 'Photoshopping' to be more 'relaxing', and the act of actually trying to capture an image more 'fun'.
It doesn't hurt ot expand your horizons a bit. Photoshop your face off here at DPC, and hang the straight-out-of-camera shots up in your house.
Like Green Egg's & Ham, you should try it, maybe you'll like it!
Would you like it in a box?
Would you like it with a fox?
Try it try it, you will see!
Photoshop's for you and me!
Message edited by author 2007-03-23 15:58:12.
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03/23/2007 03:51:21 PM · #23 |
You could also look at it as not competing to win, but submitting for critique. That's my approach.
Overall, though, the number 1 benefit of membership to me is having portfolio space.
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