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02/06/2007 11:51:34 PM · #151 |
Originally posted by asimchoudhri:
Originally posted by posthumous:
[...] I am a very conceptual thinker and it frustrates me when my points are misunderstood. |
Hyperbole leads to misunderstanding. Since it is a text-based discussion, people may not always know where the emphasis of each statement is. I do not think everything you have stated was received as you intended, and I do not think that everything you have responded to was meant in the way you interpreted it. |
You are probably right. These are the hazards of purely textual communication.
Originally posted by asimchoudri:
With regard to military being primarily about killing, my only thought is this: If the US was invaded and the military captured all of the bad guys, stopped their attack, and put them in jail without anyone being killed, would you consider this a successful mission? I think that would be very successful, and thus the "killing" is not their primary goal, but rather a very special, limited, and sacred tool they are allowed to use in the appropriate circumstances to achieve their primary goal.
The primary goal is the protection of the United States of America. |
This is what I mean about getting frustrated. I already dealt with this case. The invading force is "military." One military is "protecting" from another military. (And perhaps the other country claims it is protecting itself by invading us. What a ridiculous claim! Yet it sounds so familiar...)
It is unconvincing at best to say that the military isn't about killing because it is really about stopping other militaries from killing.
AND... if you think I am singling out the U.S. military you are wrong wrong wrong.
Message edited by author 2007-02-06 23:52:06.
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02/07/2007 10:08:50 AM · #152 |
Originally posted by asimchoudhri:
I think that would be very successful, and thus the "killing" is not their primary goal, but rather a very special, limited, and sacred tool... |
Also I find this notion rather unsettling, elevating killing to the level of the sacrosanct. This is new. I have never inferred this from any of the available resources, either popular culture, hearsay, anecdote, archival footage, or anything else. In fact, quite the opposite: "ambush is killing, killing is fun".
Realistically, combat soldiers aren't like Native North Americans, where every act of killing an animal was a holy event, and forgiveness was sought from the spirit of the animal for its necessary death at the hands of the hunter. That's killing as a solemn sacred tool, not the messy butcher shop at the scene of a frontline, where soldiers and civilians are all thrown into the mix. |
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03/21/2007 11:42:00 PM · #153 |
Greeting mid-month from the Peninsula!
I needed to get a mid-month update out to you this month because our
operational timetable has been fast-forwarded by a week or so I want to
make sure you I pass on to you just some of those incredible and
remarkable events that your Marines have either caused or witnessed
personally.
Now I use the term 'fast-forwarded' but that doesn't mean we're coming
home any sooner. I don't want to unnecessarily get your hopes up. What
it does mean is that we have another unit taking over our zone sooner
because of the 'surge' in forces in the Al-Anbar province. This new
unit will definitely be a welcome sight as the zone that we have been
responsible for is larger than most of the zones that Battalions are
responsible for during their deployments. This fact alone speaks
volumes for the amount of responsibility, hard work and diligence your
Marines have shown over the past 6 months.
For example, Marines from Weapons Platoon (or 4th Platoon) were
patrolling a couple of days ago when alert Marines noticed a dark sedan
pull up to a store about 350 meters south of their position. They saw
the 4 males in the sedan speak to some other individuals near a roadside
shop and then the alert Marines noticed a scoped rifle held by one of
the males in the back of the sedan. The Marines then immediately
engaged the 4 males in the vehicle killing 2 insurgents and wounding the
2 other insurgents. One of the wounded insurgents then attempted to
make it through one of our checkpoints on his way to the hospital with
several of his family members. The wounded insurgent was immediately
cared for by our corpsmen and we rushed him to Fallujah Surgical - the
same place that all Marines in Fallujah are cared for when wounded.
When the insurgent was placed on the stretcher at the entrance of the
combat hospital he had stopped breathing and his heart had stopped
pumping blood through his veins. The expert doctors then proceeded to
revive him using various methods finally cracking his chest open to
massage heart and actually reviving him. Earlier this same day, we had
a memorial for PFC VanSlyke and when I spoke to the Marines during the
service I mentioned how we have the weaponry and ability to create
destruction and chaos at will on anyone that we desire. But we do that
to just the enemy. We don't do that to the good people of Iraq who seek
peace. We're the good guys. We're the ones who will revive a known
insurgent after a gunfight. We're the ones that ensure care and
compassion is provided to EVERYONE when necessary. The corpsmen that
assisted the insurgent at our checkpoint and the doctors at Fallujah
Surgical saved an insurgent's life. This same person was about to
attempt to take a Marine's life. Think about that for a moment and if
at first you aren't confused and frustrated - you aren't human.
However, after being over here for nearly 7 months now, you can begin to
understand the magnitude of this event. The intelligence we should gain
from this terrorist will be a treasure chest full. You see, this
terrorist was the #2 guy in&
nbsp;our area and one that we have chased after
for months. This enemy is an elusive enemy and he almost got away this
time but the alert and rapid actions of several Marines prevented his
escape.
I'm sure many of you have read the news accounts of the attempted
suicide vehicle-borne improvised explosive device on our local Iraqi
tribe. A couple of nights ago we had a dump truck filled with chlorine
gas drive into one of our indigenous counterinsurgent's checkpoint and
explode. Over 200 local nationals were attacked with a thick cloud of
chlorine gas. Most affected were the children and the elderly. Through
the rapid actions and calm professionalism of the entire company to
include great support from the Battalion we were able to care for over
250 Iraqis. That night we rushed 11 locals to Fallujah Surgical to be
ventilated. On the way there 2 of the young children had actually
stopped breathing and their heart had stopped pumping. LCpl Shaffer
(1st Plt) and HM2 Zermeno (2nd Plt) pumped life back into an 18 month
old boy and ;a 3 year old little girl. The 11 are doing better but there
are still a couple who are literally day-to-day. The next day we sent 7
males to a Jordanian hospital on the other side of Fallujah. They are
getting the care necessary to fully recover in the next couple of days.
From everyone that was exposed to the chlorine and the massive
explosion, only 2 elderly ladies who were in failing health ended up
passing away the next day due to respiratory failure. This in and of
itself is a miracle. Please pray for the full recovery of all these
people and that no other women and children needlessly die from this
cowardly attack. The Al Qaeda (AQIZ) terrorist who did this is
obviously dead and this attack shows the desperation of AQIZ. To attack
women and children with this type of a terror weapon is simply
animalistic and shows their true colors as terrorists. These next
couple of days will be tenuous ones so pray for the vigilance of your
Marines as they continue the daily fight against this spineless enemy.
Late last week we visited Fallujah General Hospital and delivered all of
the medical supplies that were so generously donated by all of you. It
was a great visit and the doctors and staff of the hospital were truly
appreciative of our efforts and of those back home who donated the
supplies. This was an absolute huge success and I can't remember how
many times the doctors thanked us for coming to the hospital on a
regular basis and just listening to their concerns. They were like kids
at Christmas rummaging through the hundreds of boxes that were
delivered. It was a joy to watch; especially when one of the young
doctors found a box of stethoscopes. He was proudly wearing 3 by the
night's end. He said he couldn't decide on the color - Iraqi doctors
need to make fashion statements you know....
A couple of weeks ago I got the opportunity to travel to Baghdad with
one of our local tribal leaders to visit with several Iraqi government
officials. This was a totally unexpected trip but one that was very
successful. We got to meet with several cabinet-level Iraqis to discuss
how to incorporate one of the largest Sunni tribes into the legitimate
Iraqi Police in Fallujah. We've made such progress here and the local
tribes are in the fight for their lives and we need a legitimate
mechanism by which to further the safety and security. We can't do this
by ourselves and need several different answers other than just a
military one and exploring these other options and seeing them actually
come to fruition has been challenging, exciting, and rewarding. We will
soon&
nbsp;see tribesmen going to training to become IPs. We have been
supporting them as best we can with our limited resources and now that
they will fall under the legitimate arm of the Iraqi government and not
a Sadr-like militia, we can support them even more. They have bravely
stood watch at their checkpoints. In the last 3 months they have lost
26 of their fighters and of course sustained a suicide bomber in a dump
truck. They are resolute and to watch them rise to the occasion as they
did gave me a new found respect for these people. There are plenty of
frustrating days over here, believe me. But these last few days have
reinforced invaluable lessons and illustrated pure bravery and courage.
We haven't received email from the states in nearly 3 weeks. I know
this is frustrating for you back home and believe me it is very
frustrating to us here. We can continue to use our personal email
addresses though so if any of you feel you want to reply or you just
need to get a hold of me via email, please use xxxxxxxxxxx. Also
know that our MWR email and phones were down for the past few days as
well because of some equipment failure. We plan to have the suite up in
the next couple of days.
Your Marines continue to do the amazing things that Marines do on a
daily basis without accolade or reward. They simply go about their
business of searching for and locating the enemy. I'll save the latest
exploits of yesterday for another update which will probably end up
being my last update as I stated at the beginning of this letter that
our time for reunion with our family and friends draws ever nearer.
I constantly think how fortunate we are to have the support that we do
back home from our families, friends, neighbors, and the best Key
Volunteer Network in the Marine Corps. Your prayers are coveted for the
protection and vigilance of your Marines. They are combat veterans now
who have bled and shed tears for their fellow loved ones who have given
all for these people and this cause. They are better people for this
and make better husbands, sons, boyfriends, and fathers. I bust at the
seams because of how proud I am of them and what they have accomplished
over here in just this short time. Thank you for allowing me to be with
your sons and husbands during this time and having the opportunity to
lead them. I have learned much from them and I am honored to be a part
of this great Company. |
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03/22/2007 12:27:47 AM · #154 |
Might I suggest a branch of the Armed Forces that might provide a good alternative. This branch has been involved in every major conflict. Is one of the oldest defense forces of the United States. And with the present state of the world is one of the most important defenses we have.
The United States Coast Guard
For those who don't like the primary focus being killing. The Coast Guard has a dedicated mission of sea based rescue. Providing opportunities to save lives. But have no doubt....the U.S. Coast Guard will raise it's guns in defense of it's nation.
But for those considering military service but struggling with whether it's for them. This is an option for those who want to serve their nation to consider.
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03/22/2007 01:00:19 AM · #155 |
Originally posted by "posthumous":
All because I wanted to show that joining the military is not an uncontroversial, black-and-white, all-good proposition. And that goal was met with all the bile that rose up against me when I dared to suggest it. |
I think the issue is that we have hundreds of liberal newspaper editorials making your points day after day.
We have few ever giving the side of the soldiers. And a great many showing them disrespect.
Originally posted by "posthumous":
And the notion that the U.S. Army's goal is to "protect and defend," an admirable notion, has been completely and utterly undermined by the current Administration's reckless invasion of a sovereign nation that posed no significant threat. |
First off, if that is your dismissal. Then it ends way back when:
Vietnam...
North Korea...
WWI... (did we really need to get involved?)
Originally posted by "posthumous":
routerguy explained the real reason quite well. It was to "protect and defend" our oil supply. |
And I am sorry, the whole Iraq = Oil. I just have never bought it. There is really not a drastic amount of oil in Iraq to make it worth the cost.
The most valid reasons I've seen were:
a) de-stabilize the region and attempt to establish capitalist democracies
b) to protect our debt, by preventing Iraq from establishing the Euro as an oil exchange currency. (Presently, thanks to Saudi Arabia, all oil is pretty much traded at the dollar. Making the dollar the international reserve currency. Were the Euro to be tied to oil it would enable it to act as a reserve currency as well. Causing people to unload the dollar. Collapsing the U.S. economy (far far beyond what liberals like to claim it to be). Think breadlines, riots, etc.
c) actual belief there were stockpiles of chemical weapons and intent to develop nuclear weapons. Of which, I've felt there was indeed evidence of such. The fact that hundreds of 50 gallon drums of pesticides were found in camoflauged military bunkers. The only difference between said pesticides and military grade nerve weapons is the concentrations. Having worked in a chem lab that manufactured testing standards for such pesticides I am fully aware that all that is needed to turn that 50 gallon drum of pesticide into nerve toxin is some glass tubing and a flame. And knowing how long and at what temperature to cook it in order to distill down the toxin.
Originally posted by "posthumous":
Oh, and I've heard the argument about keeping terrorist activity "over there" instead of "over here." Hmm... and what is the rest of the world supposed to think about that strategy? |
I think that is a very valid argument. And is my point d) bring the war to your enemy. One of the oldest strategies and one of the wisest. It ensures that the collateral damage occurs on your enemies ground.
If the war was just on U.S. soil all would be gain for Al-Quaeda. However, because it is happening over there. The U.S. is not the only one being unpopular. Many have grown to dislike Al-Quaeda as well.
THIS IS NOT TO SAY THE MILITARY IS AN INNONCENT ENTITY. But most believe every member of the military is some evil baby killing monster. Many of those in the military are fathers and mothers just like us.
Without them we would not be free. It is like the multitude of hippie cars with "FREE TIBET" bumper stickers. But Tibet is not being freed. And likely won't without soldiers to liberate it. I have never understood how one can be "ANTI-WAR" & "FREE TIBET". It's just not going to happen.
Very few cases of pacific liberation have occurred. India and Gandhi are a nice example. But that occurred because Great Britain was withdrawing from it's colonial empire and the politics of modern day British society were disinclined to the conflict. Such doesn't happen with regimes like the middle-east, China, etc.
Originally posted by "posthumous":
The invading force is "military." One military is "protecting" from another military. |
If you could get everyone on the planet to be a pacifist and turn the swords into plowshares. That'd be grand...but it doesn't happen. And turning your sword in a plowshare just allows you to be killed.
It's like the playground. The fact that you don't want to bully, and even less so want to be bullied. Does nothing to prevent the bullies from bullying you.
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03/25/2007 01:48:29 AM · #156 |
| Being in the armed forces myself, I know that there are ALWAYS ways around everything. They're just not always enjoyable. |
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03/25/2007 04:54:20 AM · #157 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
When I typed "military career" into Google, I found page after page of biased sites trying to sell the military as a career. About.com seemed to cover most of the down sides, but the understatement is rich:
= It's a commitment that once agreed to cannot be broken without serious consequences.
= Once you are in the service, you have no real freedom. Many decisions are made for you without your input.
= There is the possibility that you could make the supreme sacrifice for your country.
= You have no real privacy, especially in the beginning.
= The military decides your clothing and your hair style.
= There is the possibility that you might be called upon to kill someone or cause someone's death.
Let me rephrase this in a non-PC way: your freedom will be taken away, you could be killed, and you will be turned into a killer.
But since I have no military experience, I dug up some links with more credibility than I have. I realize that, at least in the U.S., the job market sucks, especially for the poorer demographics, but for those of you making the extremely important decision of whether or not to pursue the military as a career, please take the time to check out the following links:
here are the accounts of others who enlisted:
//www.objector.org/before-you-enlist/diaries.html
I would also suggest taking a look at the "Before You Enlist" section as a whole:
//www.objector.org/before-you-enlist.html
Well, that's all I have right now. My Google searches get flooded with military sites. But I will find more. And I ask the SC not to move this to rant until CalliopeKel's thread gets moved to rant. Because, as a side-effect, that thread is promoting the military as a career, I felt the need for a thread to discuss the opposing point of view without disrupting her thread. It's important that both threads be equally available because there are people here of military age. |
Thought I'd quote the original post first. Yes, entering the military requires a great deal of thought and analysis - all the things you point out are true, the key ones being you could be killed or you could be asked to kill. Biggie. Not to be taken lightly. (And one those considering law enforcement have to assess as well.)
The whole uniform thing? Polyester sucks as a fabric choice. That's my thought on that.
I would assert that a lot of the other things have counterparts in any career decision. In large companies, you will have very little say, if any, in corporate decisions. You will be asked to do what it takes to improve the bottom line. I will say, based on experience, that within the military, "employees" are given a great deal more responsibility (and that includes making decisions) than their corporate counterparts at relatively equal phases in their careers.
The decision as to the use of the military in specific engagements rests with the executive government, those who are elected by their constituents to serve the "will of the people".
ANY long-term decision should be carefully thought out - the military is not for everybody. So I whole-heartedly agree that those considering it should be informed. No question. (And we really don't want those guys who think killing is "cool", either.)
My question in return - would you be willing to live in the United States if it DIDN'T have a military? |
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04/08/2007 11:44:49 AM · #158 |
30 March 2007
Greetings for the Final Time from the Peninsula,
This obviously is a bittersweet update to write because our time has
come to an end here on the Fallujah Peninsula.
The Marines of Alpha Company, 1/24 have started their journey to rejoin
you, their families and friends. By the time you receive this letter
all of the platoons will have vacated FOB Black and will be safely back
at the Battalion Headquarters in Camp Baharia on the other side of the
city of Fallujah. They will not be responsible for patrolling or
guarding a post anymore. They will get the opportunity to rest, relax,
and reflect upon this deployment during the next 2 weeks as a company -
together. This will be the first time in 7 months that I'll be able to
see the entire company together at one place at one time. When we had
our final formation in 29 Palms, CA in September, I told them it would
be a long time before we were back together again. Well, that time has
quickly come for us. It will be good to see their faces, shake their
hands, slap them on the back and tell them, "Job well done!" They have
done an outstanding job and I can't begin to even tell you of the
amazing accomplishments. Unfortunately, I have failed to even come
close to describing some of the remarkable events and responses of your
incredible Marines.
At this point, I have to thank my Company Staff for the outstanding
support, sacrifice and tireless effort they have put into this
deployment and these Marines. They have made this deployment easier for
me and they applied their talents where they were needed and the result
was success at every point. First Sergeant (actually selected for
Sergeant Major!) Baum has been the steady rock of the company and has
taken care of these Marines like they were his own sons. Gunnery
Sergeant Kyle made FOB Black, FOB Gold, ECP-5, OP Trestles, and our
multiple patrol bases home to over 200 Marines. His professionalism and
tireless efforts allowed us to get the job done every time because of
his support. Captain Ghillarducci, my Executive Officer, was always
looking out for the Marines and held their interests first and foremost.
His passion and commitment to the tasks at hand was second to none.
These three individuals made this&
nbsp;deployment an easy one for me and I
thank them for their hard work, teamwork, and commitment to each other
and the Marines of Alpha Company.
I am blessed to also have the smartest and hardest working platoon
commanders in the Marine Corps. These guys just don't stop. I'm sure
most wives and mothers don't want to hear this but all four of them said
they wished they could continue the efforts here because of the progress
we have seen in the last 3-4 months. We operated up until the last
possible moment and the Marines came out of the field scratching and
clawing to stay back out there as long as possible. The Marines are
undoubtedly deserving of great leaders in their platoon commanders and
they had just that during this deployment. I couldn't have asked for a
better team. They too made my life easy and kept their eyes on the
enemy 24/7 and pursued him relentlessly. Their tactical genius allowed
us to keep stomp on the neck of the enemy throughout this deployment and
set our replacements up for success as they take over a zone that has
the enemy suppressed.
The Iraqis of Fallujah and the Peninsula can feel the momentum. For a
couple of months now they have asked me when we are going to finish Al
Qaeda? When we first arrived, no one would talk to us. No one was
willing to stick out their neck and give us information on who the bad
guy was and where he sleeps. For the last 7 months, our company
intelligence cell, the platoon commanders and your marvelous Marines
have worked 18-20 hours a day to gather the necessary intelligence to
track down the cowardly enemy. We detained over 500 as a company of
which over 40% of those will be in jail for longer than 3 years. We had
a total of 26 go to an actual trial in an Iraqi court and most of those
will see 7-10 years in an Iraqi jail. We killed many of the enemy -
some we know about, most we do not. These numbers are outstanding for a
company deployed to Iraq and we are proud of these numbers but here
numbers are not everything. Just last week, we had people giving us
information that at one time only 3 months ago we know were helping the
enemy by being neutral and allowing the enemy free passage through their
village. They now have an active checkpoint outside their village and
they point out who the enemy is to us and they are key piece to
controlling the vast terrain of 82 square kilometers we call the
Peninsula. Nearly every night for the last 2 months we have done squad
and platoon-sized raids in pursuit of the enemy because peace-seeking,
courageous Iraqis are telling us where the bad guys are sleeping. One
of our main contacts told my replacement the other night that the bad
thing is that the enemy will be difficult to find in the area because he
is hiding and running from the Marines. When we first arrived, the
enemy lived in plain sight and enjoyed the cloak of secrecy of the local
populace. Your Marines were successful in shedding that cloak from off
the shoulders of the enemy and either killed him, captured him or made
him run. That's how ;you fight the counterinsurgency fight. Just today,
I spoke with a young Iraqi man who is a lawyer in Fallujah and he said
that he thinks the enemy will be finished in 60 days or less. He
realizes that the Iraqi police are functioning properly and have a great
leader who takes the fight to the enemy daily. Others are seeing this
and joining in droves. In the last two police recruitments over 200
male citizens of Fallujah have volunteered to become police officers
here - they feel the momentum too and want to be on the winning team.
The Iraqis now know and are saying that freedom is worth fighting for.
They are asking the question of why should we let those who want to
repress freedom have a chance? These are historic times yet still
complex and dangerous times. The enemy still lurks in the shadows and
he must be finished. We were able to serve the Iraqi people over the
last 7 months by providing them safety and security. We have also been
able to provide them clean water, stable electricity, better streets to
drive on and good schools. It will be a sad day tomorrow to say goodbye
to dear friends who are risking their lives for the future of their sons
and daughters. I have met several very brave Iraqis here who I have
trusted with my life and they have entrusted their lives and families to
your Marines. There are Iraqis here who have hope - please enjoy the
picture of the little Iraqi boy and think about his next 10-15 years of
growing up in this country. I know your Marines' hard work has given
this little boy an opportunity to taste freedom and to fight for it in
the future.
I would like to close by thanking the two most important groups involved
in this deployment: your Marines and you the families and friends of
Alpha Company. Your Marines are America's most precious resource and I
thank you for giving them to this country so that they can fight against
this evil yet cowardly enemy. They have outperformed at every
opportunity and the positive results show their hard work and dedication
to duty. Each and every one of them has lived up to the Corps' values
of honor, courage and commitment. You should be extremely proud of
them. I am eternally grateful for these magnificent Marines.
Finally, thank you for your dedication, patience, and prayers for us
throughout this deployment. We could not do this without your support.
The enemy is attacking you as well through the internet and news outlets
and you must not give up your resolve and commitment to this fight and
support for your loved ones. This is a battle of wills and we must do
our part to ensure our wills never waver or grow weak. Thank you for
being steadfast for your loved ones throughout some very difficult
times. We look forward to seeing your faces and being able to embrace
our loved ones in less than a month. Thank you for letting me lead your
husbands & sons in this fight. I learned much from them and from you
throughout this deployment.
I will close with a quote from one of our greatest Presidents: "The
beast always hates the same things: religion, a free press, intellectual
inquiry, artistic expression, anything that elevates the individual.
People try and wish the beast away. People hope that the wolf would
just pass by. Evil is powerless if the good are unafraid." - Ronald
Regan 1981 |
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