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03/15/2007 10:22:23 AM · #26 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by sabphoto:
I hope these certain people don't start talking to other venues about it and totally killing your rep. |
If you make a living from photography (even in part), this might be lawsuit material. |
I couldn't think of a worse possible approach if he wants to actually keep taking pictures in venues in the future. |
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03/15/2007 11:05:35 AM · #27 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by sabphoto:
I hope these certain people don't start talking to other venues about it and totally killing your rep. |
If you make a living from photography (even in part), this might be lawsuit material. |
I wouldn't suggest this approach. It would be terribly expensive and unless you can actually prove who said what to who, it'll go nowhere fast. |
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03/15/2007 11:13:12 AM · #28 |
Yes, he is allowed to kick you out as it's a private establishment. If you return to photograph he can have you arrested for tresspassing.
The advice from deapee to have your photo editor contact and clarify would be prudent.
However, as you were making arrangements with the bands who were performing at the venue. And the fact that the owner expressed that you were a bad photographer and were making money selling the prints. If such is indeed not true than you might have a slander case.
As he has gone beyond refusing to allow you on his private business premises to the point of damaging your business. If you do not sell the prints than what he said to damage your business is a lie. This is potentially pursuable in court.
What Pineapple said may also be an issue at hand. If the owner of the venue believes you or your magazine is making merchandise profit off of his venue and he's not seeing a cut - that could be issue at hand.
It may also be your magazine and not you. The real issue is the slander which has potential to damage your reputation and business. This is the only aspect I see where you have a potential case to pursue.
It's actually not too terribly expensive for the mere fact that we're terrified of lawyers. It's not uncommon for there to be no need for court. Just a call from a lawyer inquiring about slander charges is likely enough to scare the bejeezies out of most small independent businesses. Because in order to fight it, they know they'd have to dig deep too.
Even if it's not pursued, it might get the management to cease from slandering in the future.
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03/15/2007 11:21:22 AM · #29 |
Maybe I'm missing something but who cares if he is selling prints or not?
Why would that make a difference?
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03/15/2007 11:23:42 AM · #30 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by sabphoto:
I hope these certain people don't start talking to other venues about it and totally killing your rep. |
If you make a living from photography (even in part), this might be lawsuit material. |
I couldn't think of a worse possible approach if he wants to actually keep taking pictures in venues in the future. |
Having your reputation wrongfully destroyed pretty much eliminates the possiblity of future pictures at these venues anyway and could create problems in other areas if word gets around. I certainly wouldn't sit on my hands and do nothing. |
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03/15/2007 11:24:09 AM · #31 |
The music biz and particularly a local scene, is tiny. Everyone pretty much knows everyone else and it isn't exactly welcoming to establishment, police or lawyers. Being the 17 year old kid who called a lawyer when he couldn't get access ain't the good way to get or maintain a better reputation.
Photographers are at best tolerated in most venues. Even when you are friendly with the management, staff and bouncers, you are at best a distraction from what's actually going on.
It's the fast track to not getting access anywhere.
Message edited by author 2007-03-15 11:24:59. |
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03/15/2007 11:37:23 AM · #32 |
Originally posted by rswank:
but who cares if he is selling prints or not? |
The artists.
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03/15/2007 11:49:08 AM · #33 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by rswank:
but who cares if he is selling prints or not? |
The artists. |
And the venue could require a property release.
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03/15/2007 11:50:07 AM · #34 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by rswank:
but who cares if he is selling prints or not? |
The artists. |
Also venue management, band managers, record companies, etc. Obviously the people who control access to the venue care.
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03/15/2007 12:00:00 PM · #35 |
The lawsuit route would not likely get you anywhere. In these sorts of cases it boils down to your word against his and is decided by who can afford the better lawyers.
The best course of action would be to talk with the publication you represent, the artists who are using the venue and try and find out who has put that particular bee in his boxers. Once you know who said what, you can fight it with facts -- until then, you are shooting blanks.
David
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03/15/2007 12:12:32 PM · #36 |
It might end up that your "publication" just isn't being above board with you too.
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03/15/2007 12:13:28 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by AllgoodPics:
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by rswank:
but who cares if he is selling prints or not? |
The artists. |
Also venue management, band managers, record companies, etc. Obviously the people who control access to the venue care. |
Yup. That's exactly right. They all want to control their image and control the money flow from it.
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03/15/2007 12:25:39 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by sabphoto:
I hope these certain people don't start talking to other venues about it and totally killing your rep. |
If you make a living from photography (even in part), this might be lawsuit material. |
I couldn't think of a worse possible approach if he wants to actually keep taking pictures in venues in the future. |
Having your reputation wrongfully destroyed pretty much eliminates the possiblity of future pictures at these venues anyway and could create problems in other areas if word gets around. I certainly wouldn't sit on my hands and do nothing. |
I don't think anyone's suggesting that the OP do nothing, but, assuming that the OP's goal is to photograph bands, resorting to a lawsuit is not going to be a step toward achieving that.
Lawsuits are, by nature, confrontational and antagonistic as well as expensive. Since access to those venues and artists that the OP wants to shoot is at the discretion of those he would be suing, a lawsuit would be one way to guarantee never having access again. |
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03/15/2007 12:26:04 PM · #39 |
adam, i like the look of your smugmug, you've done it really well. you have some very good shots on there. i would recommend that you enable their right click blocker on all your shots, and only dislpay medium size shots. i know the right click blocker doens't stop someone who really wants the pic from nabbing it, but it will stop the casual -ooo, that's nice - stealer. plus, it will go along way to showing others that the prints are not for sale.
good luck, i hope all works out for you.
perhaps you should get a physical portfolio of your work together that you can present to managers at a club. that way they can see the high calibre of your work, that you're not an amature in quality, and that having someone shooting at their club may actually help them. you could look at a compromise - give them one image per show at a huge discount to use for advertising or something like that. that could sweeten the pot a bit. also would help with their atttude towards you.
try to get a meeting with the manager at a neutral venue, during daytime hours. a coffeeshop or somthing, where you can talk, he won't be distracted by the responsibilities of running a club, and he can see your work and work ethic without the hecticness of the gig night.
perhaps call him and say something like: I'm afraid we have managed to get on the wrong foot regarding my photographing bands at your venue. i was wondering if I could buy you coffee and we could discuss how we can continue to have a working relationship. your venue is one of the top venues for punk in the state; i actually drive over four hours to see gigs there. if i can show you my portfolio, i'm sure we can come up with an agreement that will be mutually beneficial.
something along those lines. talk with your parents, or any other person who has business experience, to come up with a suitable line of attack. for the telephone conversation, write yourself a script, but learn it, don't read it. that'll sound strange. consider all possible reactions the manager may have, and how you can counter them. reamin positive and unfailingly polite at all times. never raise your voice, and keep in your lower register. if he becomes insulting, rude or abusive, keep your cool and remain polite. if the situation becomes irrepairable, excuse yourself politely, make a comment about hoping to have better relations in the future, and go.
good luck!
Message edited by author 2007-03-15 12:39:14.
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03/15/2007 12:36:06 PM · #40 |
| Adam, is it possible that they got upset just because you're posting your stuff to the web, and they somehow confused that with you offering them for sale? If so, you may need to stop posting your stuff publically. Make the galleries private and just give the passwords to the bands and managers. |
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03/15/2007 12:58:47 PM · #41 |
| I'm afraid it's over dude. Your only hope now is to become part of the paparazzi and take humiliating photos of the bands. :) |
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03/15/2007 01:01:53 PM · #42 |
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03/15/2007 01:07:30 PM · #43 |
| sry to hear that man. sounds like he may be recieving correct or incorrect information about you from some outisde source. (whther it is correct or incorrect is beyond me). shooting bands can be a shady business sometimes. |
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03/15/2007 04:24:33 PM · #44 |
It may also be worth considering to send a formal letter to the venue's management as well. In doing so, you would want to make sure it was clear that you aren't entirely sure what happened and that you would like to put their fears to rest and repair the good working relationship you had before. People respond differently to printed words than they do to physical meetings/phone calls, which can sometimes seem much more confrontational, especially if the person you are trying to talk to has problems in that area.
This would also give you a chance to put in writing - document - that you don't sell any of your photography and tell them what you really do with the photographs that you take.
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03/15/2007 05:08:37 PM · #45 |
Awesome, so many responses
yea, i think i will send a letter, thanks for everyones input.
Basically its ok if people take the photos off my site, im fine with that (i dont want to put a right click warning)
all my recent ones are only at 1024 pixles on their largest side.
Hopefully they will listen to me, and acutally let me voice my self for once, if i write a letter to them.
hope this thread can teach other people some stuff as well |
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03/15/2007 05:42:07 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by Verbal Beating Victim:
Verbally Assulted? What do/can i do |
Burning the place to the ground is the only thing that comes to mind. Hope it's helpful. |
Friggin' bingo baby!! Then as they come running out give them all jumping spinning sidekicks to the head - Chuck Norris style!
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03/15/2007 05:53:48 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by dudephil:
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by Verbal Beating Victim:
Verbally Assulted? What do/can i do |
Burning the place to the ground is the only thing that comes to mind. Hope it's helpful. |
Friggin' bingo baby!! Then as they come running out give them all jumping spinning sidekicks to the head - Chuck Norris style! |
Naw, he just needs to learn how to channel the Force.
Manager: "Stop! You're that kid I hate!"
Elmakias: "You're letting me inside..." (with Obi-wan hand gesture.)
Manager: "I'm letting you inside."
Elmakias: "You don't need to see my ID..."
Manager: "I don't need to see your ID."
Elmakias: "I can go about my business..."
Manager: "You can go about your business."
Elmakias: "Move along..."
Manager: "Move along! Move along!"
See? Easy peasy!
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03/15/2007 06:04:31 PM · #48 |
Well if he goes this route he may as well pull out his Light Sabre and wack the dudes head off.
Originally posted by Rebecca:
Originally posted by dudephil:
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by Verbal Beating Victim:
Verbally Assulted? What do/can i do |
Burning the place to the ground is the only thing that comes to mind. Hope it's helpful. |
Friggin' bingo baby!! Then as they come running out give them all jumping spinning sidekicks to the head - Chuck Norris style! |
Naw, he just needs to learn how to channel the Force.
Manager: "Stop! You're that kid I hate!"
Elmakias: "You're letting me inside..." (with Obi-wan hand gesture.)
Manager: "I'm letting you inside."
Elmakias: "You don't need to see my ID..."
Manager: "I don't need to see your ID."
Elmakias: "I can go about my business..."
Manager: "You can go about your business."
Elmakias: "Move along..."
Manager: "Move along! Move along!"
See? Easy peasy! |
Message edited by author 2007-03-15 18:04:52.
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03/15/2007 06:04:43 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by dudephil:
Then as they come running out give them all jumping spinning sidekicks to the head - Chuck Norris style! |
I do believe Chuch Norris' kick of choice is the "round-house kick to the face".
You know what they say...
Originally posted by They:
If you can see Chuck Norris, Chuck Norris can see you. If you can't see Chuck Norris, prepare yourself for a round-house kick to the face! |
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03/15/2007 06:21:09 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by Bugzeye:
Well if he goes this route he may as well pull out his Light Sabre and wack the dudes head off. |
"This little one's not worth the trouble."
But the again, that's what Obi-wan said before the guy got pissy and he chopped the jerk's arm off.
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